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Hmph. Okay, from the entire bunch of doctrines, there are three that are worth taking, and surprise surprise, they're the most boring ones of the lot.

Iron Discipline, Drop Troops, Close Order Drill.

You wouldn't even need to use the last two slots to make a playable army. Indeed, nothing you can use them for is going to make an iota of difference in the long run, with the possible exception of Mechanised.

Illusionary choices. That's what IG always gets, while at the same time being forced to an incredibly narrow mould by the metagame. It's the same thing with infantry squads. They're just 10-man heavy weapon teams. GW could take lasguns away from grunts, and IG armies wouldn't even notice. It's not even a particularly fun army archetype to paint or model, because 90% of your troopers are there for show.

Tech Priests have a role. They are all but mandatory if you take Imperial super heavies, this doesnt necessarily mean 'in Apocalypse'.

Being able to repair a Baneblade or Warhound on a 2+ each turn is a sick reversal of their normal 'useless' status.

However the comments still stand as doctrines mean nothing in apocalypse, and its rare to find a super heavy outside of Apocalypse, though it can be done.

H.B.M.C. wrote:"And Grenadiers (while I'm here), are a waste of a Doctrine Point because, as I said, the strength of the Stormy squad is their flexibility, and Grenadiers have no flexibility, making them just overpriced Guardsmen.!

Here I strongly disagree. you briefly mentioned the ability to take Grens as troops, but glossed over the advantages. Grenadiers are the way to make up a legal Armoured Company list. 3x Russes, 3x Hellhounds, 1x Sentinel squadron, 2x Troops Grens in Chimera and a Command section in a Chimera is a nine tank army, with only - at a minimum - 140pts 'wasted' on infantry. Furthermore with Armoured Company lists you may well need the Grens for the odd bit of flamers/melta work and objective grabbing/lurking, with so few infantry (though you might want more than ten) having a 4+ save can be a respectable bonus.

i have to second H.B.M.C's assessment that grenadiers are useless, even if you want to do the armored company. in 2000pts you can get the three leman russ' and two hellhounds plus command and the chimera for them at about 1000pts which leaves 1000 to spend on infantry platoon which you can mount in chimeras with the armored company doctrine. all in all the grenadiers still fall short/are a waste

Infantry Squads are always better than Grenadiers unless it's a very small game and you need to fill your compulsories.

If you want armoured company, take any of the two published lists (Armoured Company from the GW Website, or Armoured Battlegroup from IA1). Or if you want mixed, use regular infantry squads. You'll only need to buy 2 Command Sections and 3 Infantry Squads, and you get the added benefit of actual heavy weapons.

At 1850 I can do:

CHQ w/Standard Bearer + Iron Discipline in Chimera
Lascannon Sentinel

Command Section w/Iron Discipline in Chimera
Squad w/Las & Plas in Chimera
Squad w/Las & Plas in Chimera
Squad w/Las & Plas in Chimera

AF Squad w/Las & Plas in Chimera

Hellhound w/Smoke & EA
Hellhound w/Smoke & EA
Hellhound w/Smoke & EA

Russ w/Hull HB
Russ w/Hull HB
Russ w/Hull HB

That's 1850 exactly. And those 4 squads are far more useful than a couple of 'points saving' Grenadier units. They have guns that can reach out and touch someone.

BYE

Hey there! (My first post )

Infantry Squads are always better than Grenadiers unless it's a very small game and you need to fill your compulsories.

Let me show you my point of view.

Grenadiers are stormtroopers without DS or infiltrate, but with access to chimera. They have up 2 spc weapons and BS4, but they come only in few numbers.

In my opinion they're excellent mobile scoring (but rather not spearhead) units if you don't run a mechanized force. In 4th ed, mobility is key to success. And, of course, 2 mobile plasmas are always handy.

Cheers.

You know what else is a mobile scoring unit?

Something with Drop Troops, that doesn't take up an Elite Slot.

BYE

I guess you're talking about deepstriking HQ and regular platoon troopers.

I'm not sure about their efficiency as scoring units. Usually, grabbing objectives starts at turn 5 or 6. Most of dropping units arrive on turn 2 and 3. So enemy has, let's say, 3 turns to wipe those guys out (or at least 6 of them per squad), I guess it's not very difficult. Not to mention the risk of bad scatter.

Of course, you can always say that inquisitorial stormtroopers can do same thing as grenadiers, have cheaper transport and don't take doctrine point. And it's true. Taking grenadiers isn't best way to spend those 155 pts (or more), but not the worst. So I strongly disagree with calling them "useless".

Cheers.

H.B.M.C. wrote:
At 1850 I can do:....
That's 1850 exactly.

Standard 40K battle size is 1500pts. True I wish it were larger, 2k point armies encourage you to fit in more toys as the minimaxers are done optimising by then. 1K games are also increasingly common, though to be fair to you you have mentioned 'small games' again in passing.
However 14500 and 1k games are increasingly the norm, at least over here, and grenadiers make a large difference in what you can afford and deploy.

@HBMC:

Taking your mechanized list into account, how would it look at the 1500pt level?? I am just curious...

Also what would a non and/or partial Mech force with Cameleoline look like, with Rough Riders?

Oh and thanks for the Article and the insights that you have given, a lot of things make sense now!

Thanks,
Chappy P!

At 1500... well it wouldn't have all those Hellhounds, that's for sure. Anti-Tank is more important, and seeing as though in MechInf AT usually comes from Infantry Squads, it'd be dropping the Hellhounds/Sentinel and fitting in as many extra squads as I could.

Probably...

CHQ w/Honorifica + ID + Standard
Chimera w/HB

Platoon HQ w/ID
Chimera w/HB

Squad w/Las & Plas
Chimera
Squad w/Las & Plas
Chimera
Squad w/Las & Plas
Chimera
Squad w/Las & Plas
Chimera

AF Squad w/Las & Plas
Chimera

Russ w/Hull HB + EA
Russ w/Hull HB + EA

BYE

@HBMC:

Thanks for the reply I appreciate it!

Chappy P!

Fluff wise I like:
- Cyber enhancement You are correct in your assumption. Its trash.
- Chem Inhaler : See above
- Techpriest: I like the idea, i think people overlook this one. Including myself. If you stick him right behind some russes in a mech list and not let him be shot at saving immobilized and wpn destoyed rolls on a 2+ will annoy the living crap out of your opponent.

- Light Infantry I dont like it. Yes you get nicer firing lines but I just dont think its worth it
- veterans AWSOME
- cameleoline Its called flamers, this is dumb

- Combo of Drop Troops and Close Order Drill as the DT are always COD.. Both are must haves almost

- Ogryns Ogryns are the worst buy in the army, someone else said it in here, they suck so much the rest of you army does even worse as a result of them just being on the table.
- special weapons squads : Yes with drop troops this can be loads of fun.

I wish I'd had a Guard army in the 2E days, back then you could get some mileage out of Ogryns. IIRC an IG Tactica in WD220? suggested packing them in a Chimera, speeding past the enemy, disembarking at max speed (taking 1 wound per head) and opening up at 6" range, hitting automatically with 2 sustained fire dice apiece.

I still field mine in Apocalypse games (kind of hard not to, as I have 15), and rejoice every time they clobber an unlucky Berzerker or what have you. It happens rarely, but once in a blue moon, a squad can manage to recoup a tenth of their cost during a game. Most times, they just die, of course.

H.B.M.C. wrote:At 1500... well it wouldn't have all those Hellhounds, that's for sure. Anti-Tank is more important, and seeing as though in MechInf AT usually comes from Infantry Squads, it'd be dropping the Hellhounds/Sentinel and fitting in as many extra squads as I could.

I would agree with you if it were a Mechanised/Steel Legion list, but I am talking about mimicing Armoured Company. Sure there is a downloadable version, but it has no official presense.

smart_alex wrote:
- cameleoline Its called flamers, this is dumb

if the enemy is within flamer range of guard, they are in charge range. Losing your 3+ cover save in buildings is the least of your worries then.

I have seen SAFH Tau armies fail to dent a cameleoline guard army in buildings. Its a fantastic doctrine. Very few people take the countermeasures ouside of Apocalypse, in Tau case an airburst fragmentation launcher.

/agree with Orlanth.

Really, not many armies (aside from podders) are able to bring flamers to bear cheaply and quickly. Just look through this forum and count how many lists posted field more than one or two mobile flamers.

Cameleoline is not always the right choice, but it is not always a bad one.

it's the best one for sure that has to go on all of your units.