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Made in sg
Executing Exarch





1hadhq, I think you're missing two things, both from page 65 of the BGB.

1) "If the hole in the middle of the Blast marker is not over the vehicle but the Blast marker is, then the Strength of the shot is halved (rounding fractions down." That means all you need to do is scatter a little and the shot becomes worthless.

2) "When a vehicle is hit by a non-barrage weapon with a Blast marker or Large Blast marker (including Ordnance), the shot is always assumed to strike the vehicle from the direction of the firer regardless of exactly where the marker is palced or scattered to." That means it's impossible to hit anything other than the AV facing that faces the shooter.

Wehrkind wrote:Sounds like a lot, but with a little practice I can do ~7-8 girls in 2-3 hours. Probably less if the cat and wife didn't want attention in that time.
 
   
Made in us
Imperial Guard Landspeeder Pilot




On moon miranda.

1hadhq wrote:leman russ =poor anti-Tank? Dont use the las,take battlecannon! Ordnance killes earlier than heavy and
i expierenced many Hits scattering to side/backarmor
where of is 8-11/10 .your las vs 14/13 or battlecannon
vs 13/11/10? I tested as mentioned Tank fights on
company level with comparision in points and the greater
numbers or lascannons didnt save the predators from
total destruction.


A single BS3 lascannon offers 25% chance to penetrate and a 1/12 chance of glancing against AV13, for a total chance of 33% to do anything.

A single Battlecannon has a 55% chance to do something.

****Direct fire ordnance hits always count as hitting the side the tank is firing at. Furthermore, the strength of the shot is halved if the hole on the blast template is not over the vehicle****

If the battlecannon fires at the front arc of a predator (av13) but scatters behind the tank, it *still* hits the front AV, and then only at S4, doing nothing. Only Indirect ordnance (Basilisk) can hit a different armor facing, and the halving rule for not having the hole over the tank still applies.



2 BS4 lascannons and a single TL BS4 lascannon have a 75% chance to glance or penetrate AV14.

The Predator wins here.




IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.

New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights!
The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.  
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






SoCal, USA!

I don't see why the Predator Destructor needs "fixing". It's a budget tank, pure and simple. Making it "better" as you suggest means it will have to cost as much as an Annihilator.

   
Made in gb
Legendary Dogfighter





Birmingham - GB

ahhh the old dilema, unless your fighting trukks or somthing similar the autocannon is generally a nice weapon, but always has something more suited availble. I like it though. The destructors strength is it's points cost, and they have served me well.

To improve it as a main tank, move and fire seems to fit the bill fine, anything else is messing with the weapon too much. it is what it is, love it for that. the destructor is a main tank but Is still a light tank in my opinion. I see them as being dropped with a forward advance and screeming forward spitting out bolts *in support of the infantry*. A medium tank would be the anhilator maybe. As for anti tank, there's the anhilator, land raider and dreadnaughts. Argue devastators if you will but i don't like them, they tend to get picked on to gain a pts advantage back due to their high cost, they're not that manovrable unless you give them a transport and then it takes them 1-2 turns to get into position, in which time the dreadnaught could have dealt with the problem. Back to the move and fire, the auto cannon is a relativly small weapon, and when mounted in a solid tank like the destructor it would seem logical to assume that the tank is large enough to absorb whatever recoil the gun produces. If infantry can use it then a tank can more than handle it. It's not exactly a cannon or a set of lascannon requireing a heavy generator to power them, it's a good old fashioned gun.

destructors are great, keep them as they are or add move and fire.

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Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka






Sheffield, UK

So the Predators been an MBT since Codex Dark Angels then? Right or wrong I suppose I'm stuck with it, I'll add it to the list of illogically designated 40k vehicles.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2008/05/15 17:51:47


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Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






SoCal, USA!

I have never seen the Predator (in any variant) as a MBT.

The Land Raider and Leman Russ tanks are MBTs. AV14 and heavy weapons (2 twin Las / Battlecannon). The Leman Russ is the equivalent of a Leopard 2 / M-1.

The Predator is either an tank hunter (Annihilator) or infantry support (Destructor). Neither of these is a MBT - they would classify more as Cruiser / Medium tanks. They are complementary to the SM role of a breakthrough force.

   
Made in de
Wrathful Warlord Titan Commander






germany,bavaria

sorry for those misinterpretation in
actual rules of ordnance scattering.

I used my own predators (destructor and annihilator)
to see the effects of a fire exchange between tanks
and never achieved a"predator wins here".

SM to hit=66%,lascannon to penetrate=16%,to destroy
instantly=50%,where did your 75% Dome from?


Target locked,ready to fire



In dedicatio imperatum ultra articulo mortis.

H.B.M.C :
We were wrong. It's not the 40k End Times. It's the Trademarkening.
 
   
Made in sg
Executing Exarch





Um, he said "2 BS4 lascannons and a single TL BS4 lascannon have a 75% chance to glance or penetrate AV14."

2 lascannons and one TL lascannon.

75% chance to glance or penetrate, not to destroy.

I don't know if the math is right, but I do know that you're reading it wrong.

Wehrkind wrote:Sounds like a lot, but with a little practice I can do ~7-8 girls in 2-3 hours. Probably less if the cat and wife didn't want attention in that time.
 
   
Made in de
Wrathful Warlord Titan Commander






germany,bavaria

im asking how someone like me,can get this 75%
chance using d6,when a 5 or 6 is needed ?


Target locked,ready to fire



In dedicatio imperatum ultra articulo mortis.

H.B.M.C :
We were wrong. It's not the 40k End Times. It's the Trademarkening.
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Ummm...It doesn't matter where it scatters to, it still hits the front armor.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






SoCal, USA!

It's not a 75% chance.

If you do the math, it's actually a 57% chance to score at leat 1 glancing or penetrating hit.

   
Made in us
Violent Enforcer




Charleston, SC, USA

uhm.. no.. it's 74.074% that a 3 lascannon predator will get a glance or penetrate on AV 14.
2 BS 4 shots =1.333 chance of hit
1 TL BS 4 shot = .888 chance to hit
all three shots together =2.222 chance to hit
1/3 of which will glance or penetrate AV 14
(1/3)2.222=.74074 or 74.074%

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Made in us
Imperial Guard Landspeeder Pilot




On moon miranda.

themandudeperson wrote:uhm.. no.. it's 74.074% that a 3 lascannon predator will get a glance or penetrate on AV 14.
2 BS 4 shots =1.333 chance of hit
1 TL BS 4 shot = .888 chance to hit
all three shots together =2.222 chance to hit
1/3 of which will glance or penetrate AV 14
(1/3)2.222=.74074 or 74.074%


^^^^^^Got it.

IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.

New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights!
The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.  
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






SoCal, USA!

themandudeperson wrote:uhm.. no.. it's 74.074% that a 3 lascannon predator will get a glance or penetrate on AV 14.

all three shots together =2.222 chance to hit


Nope. If you do the math correctly you will get a 57% chance of 1 or more glancing / penetrating hits vs AV14.

You're not doing the calculation correctly, because you're not taking into account the fact that sometimes you will score 2 or 3 hits.

(hint: you need to calculate chance of *each* weapon scoring a glance or penetrate. And the odds of scoring 1 or more hits is 99%, not 2.22)


   
Made in us
Imperial Guard Landspeeder Pilot




On moon miranda.

JohnHwangDD wrote:
themandudeperson wrote:uhm.. no.. it's 74.074% that a 3 lascannon predator will get a glance or penetrate on AV 14.

all three shots together =2.222 chance to hit


Nope. If you do the math correctly you will get a 57% chance of 1 or more glancing / penetrating hits vs AV14.

You're not doing the calculation correctly, because you're not taking into account the fact that sometimes you will score 2 or 3 hits.

(hint: you need to calculate chance of *each* weapon scoring a glance or penetrate. And the odds of scoring 1 or more hits is 99%, not 2.22)



Side Sponson one.
1 BS4 lascannon = 0.22 average glancing or penetrating hits (2/3x1/3)


Side Sponson two.
1 BS4 lascannon = 0.22 average glancing or penetrating hits (2/3x1/3)

TL Turret lascannon.
1 BS4 TL lascannon=.29333 average glancing or penetrating hits ( ((2/3)+(1/3x2/3))/(1/3))

.22+.22+.2933=.7333 average glancing or penetrating hits.




Can you show exactly how you did it?


IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.

New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights!
The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.  
   
Made in gb
Legendary Dogfighter





Birmingham - GB

lets have a go even if it is off topic.

chance of the side sponsons to hit = 66.66% each, chance to glance or penetrate is 33.33%, over all giving 22.22%, X 2 for two sponsons gives a total sponson of 44.44%

chance of twin linked lascannon to hit = 66.66% + 22.22% (2/3rds of the miss), = 88.88%, chance to glance or penetrate is still 33.33% overall giving the turret a 29.62% chance

all together the anhilator has a 74.05% chance to score a single glancing or penetrating hit. 25.81% to penetrate, 12.9% chance to destroy armour 14 per turn is all lascannons fire.

Can't bebothered to work our the Russ at this point but I'd put money on the Russ coming out tops in this fight. Of course the Russ is way harder to work out due to scattering and also the advantage gained by whoever has the lower points cost.

End of the day, there's better ways of tank hunting than the anhilator, such as assult squads packing melta bombs

I'm coming to get you

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Made in sg
Executing Exarch





The thing is, you guys are calculating the average glances and pens, not the odds of getting at least one glance or pen. JHDD is right: the odds are roughly 57%. Take the odds of each shot not glancing or penetrating and multiply them by each other (0.78 x 0.78 x 0.7066. . .), then subtract that from 1.

So it's correct to say that you'll average 0.74 glances or pens, but not that you have a 74% chance of getting at least one glance or pen.

Wehrkind wrote:Sounds like a lot, but with a little practice I can do ~7-8 girls in 2-3 hours. Probably less if the cat and wife didn't want attention in that time.
 
   
Made in gb
Legendary Dogfighter





Birmingham - GB

From what i remember of Maths A level, that's slightly wrong.

I forget the term but as the three wepons are individual they do not affect each others chance, and so should be added rather than multiplied. Missing on one doesn't make it harder for the others to hit (making a geometric progression - multiply) as the shots are mutually exclusive so simply 'stack' as in an arithmatic progression in which case you add. this as a percentage come out to the 74%. If you have two guns you have twice the chance of getting one hit as you would from one gun.

If there are any maths buffs out there have I got that right as it was a while ago. Logically 57% does sound more reasonable to me but at the same time I'm not that confident with the maths to get to that number.......

Remember we're talking about a roll that causes damage, not destrying the tank, so is far more likly to occur. Also 0.74 is the same as 74% the average of getting hits is that of the chance to get the hit. If you start going by 'odds' then your looking at the average per game which then gets very complicated.

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Made in sg
Executing Exarch





You remember your math wrong.

Try this example: you get to roll two standard D6 dice. You want to roll 4+s. What're the odds that you roll at least one 4+? By your reasoning, you add the two chances and get 100%, which is plainly wrong. What you should get is 1 - (1/2 x 1/2) = 3/4.

Wehrkind wrote:Sounds like a lot, but with a little practice I can do ~7-8 girls in 2-3 hours. Probably less if the cat and wife didn't want attention in that time.
 
   
Made in gb
Legendary Dogfighter





Birmingham - GB

prooved wrong... I'll go with your answer!

I'm coming to get you

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check out my P&M for more projects!

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Made in gb
Legendary Dogfighter





Birmingham - GB

oooo, hang on, two 50% chances are 100%....in averages which is what my calculation shows. Now I'm confused. How come the average score is different from the actual one?

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Made in sg
Executing Exarch





Because the average number of 4+s you'll roll over two die rolls is not the same as the chance of rolling at least one 4+. They are totally different things.

Let's say there's a button that has a 10% chance of giving me 10 strips of bacon whenever I press it. Over many iterations, I should average close to 1 strip of bacon per press, right? Yet clearly my odds of getting at least one strip of bacon when I press the button a single time is not 100%.

I don't know how to explain it any better, sorry. The principle seems fairly self-evident to me.

Wehrkind wrote:Sounds like a lot, but with a little practice I can do ~7-8 girls in 2-3 hours. Probably less if the cat and wife didn't want attention in that time.
 
   
Made in gb
Legendary Dogfighter





Birmingham - GB

that makes sense. why can't things be easier. I wish I had a button like that on my desk. Do they come out cooked?

I'm coming to get you

My Silver Deamon winning GD entry http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/302651.page

check out my P&M for more projects!

part of other hobby - dark age jewellery www.darkagejewellery.com 
   
Made in de
Wrathful Warlord Titan Commander






germany,bavaria

covenant84 wrote:lets have a go even if it is off topic.

chance of the side sponsons to hit = 66.66% each, chance to glance or penetrate is 33.33%, over all giving 22.22%, X 2 for two sponsons gives a total sponson of 44.44%

chance of twin linked lascannon to hit = 66.66% + 22.22% (2/3rds of the miss), = 88.88%, chance to glance or penetrate is still 33.33% overall giving the turret a 29.62% chance



all together the anhilator has a 74.05% chance to score a single glancing or penetrating hit. 25.81% to penetrate, 12.9% chance to destroy armour 14 per turn is all lascannons fire.


Can't bebothered to work our the Russ at this point but I'd put money on the Russ coming out tops in this fight. Of course the Russ is way hader to work out due to scattering and also the advantage gained by whoever has the lower points cost.

as i admit to this,it is real short work for battlecannon.
Hit at Range/LoS,direct hit by 30% or scatter and hit (1")at 16%,then roll 2d6 and choose one to damage,ends in
30%effort to do something.a company of 10 LemanRuss surely kills 3 predators per salvo.

End of the day, there's better ways of tank hunting than the anhilator, such as assult squads packing melta bombs

Target locked,ready to fire



In dedicatio imperatum ultra articulo mortis.

H.B.M.C :
We were wrong. It's not the 40k End Times. It's the Trademarkening.
 
   
Made in de
Wrathful Warlord Titan Commander






germany,bavaria

Really appreciating those maths, can we come back
of annihilator-scheme to destructor ?
I field them as flank for APC ,autocannon used to soften
target/intercept fast assault .
any modification before 5thWH40k or C:SM useful?


Target locked,ready to fire



In dedicatio imperatum ultra articulo mortis.

H.B.M.C :
We were wrong. It's not the 40k End Times. It's the Trademarkening.
 
   
Made in us
Violent Enforcer




Charleston, SC, USA

One thing I don't understand is why people consider the Predator Destructor as a "bargain tank"? Isn't that what a razorback does? It offers either a cheap twin linked anti-infantry or anti-tank weapon with AV to force medium to high strength weapons to redirect fire from high point cost units, it's dirt cheap (70-90 pts) and doesn't take up an FOC slot. Just start with your transport unloaded and use it as a tank hunter or muppet mower.

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Made in us
Imperial Guard Landspeeder Pilot




On moon miranda.

themandudeperson wrote:One thing I don't understand is why people consider the Predator Destructor as a "bargain tank"? Isn't that what a razorback does? It offers either a cheap twin linked anti-infantry or anti-tank weapon with AV to force medium to high strength weapons to redirect fire from high point cost units, it's dirt cheap (70-90 pts) and doesn't take up an FOC slot. Just start with your transport unloaded and use it as a tank hunter or muppet mower.
Chaos doesn't get Razorbacks.

Also, for 100pts (at least with the new wave of Marine/CSM books) you get a BS4 av13/11/10 tank with an autocannon and two heavy bolters. Not too bad. The problem is this niche for an all comers list is usually filled by other units or you need the slot for bigger guns. Especially with Chaos, there is no incentive to take predators over Obliterators. for the cost of any variant with Lascannons, you can field two oblits for roughly the same price that can fulfill multiple roles as well as Deep Strike and will most likely survive longer.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2008/05/17 07:37:20


IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.

New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights!
The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.  
   
Made in de
Wrathful Warlord Titan Commander






germany,bavaria

I wont send a 5men-squad to win defensed objectives.the actual design can follow DA/BA ,so you have restrictions to5/10 men squad .a razorback with up to 6 transport Slots should bring fireteams in,not assault to take the
Mission target.Minimum for infantry to attack and hold
is to me 10.makes rhinos plus predators to my choice.
when 5th Edition moves towards "Dawn of War",its worth
thinkin for predators as squad of 1-3 entry in codex?

Target locked,ready to fire



In dedicatio imperatum ultra articulo mortis.

H.B.M.C :
We were wrong. It's not the 40k End Times. It's the Trademarkening.
 
   
Made in us
Imperial Guard Landspeeder Pilot




On moon miranda.

1hadhq wrote:I wont send a 5men-squad to win defensed objectives.the actual design can follow DA/BA ,so you have restrictions to5/10 men squad .a razorback with up to 6 transport Slots should bring fireteams in,not assault to take the
Mission target.Minimum for infantry to attack and hold
is to me 10.makes rhinos plus predators to my choice.
when 5th Edition moves towards "Dawn of War",its worth
thinkin for predators as squad of 1-3 entry in codex?


entschuldigung, mein Deutsch ist nicht so gut jezt, aber können Sie mehr Zeit nehmen Ihre englischen Antworten zu schreiben? sie sind schwierig zu lesen. Danke

Anyway, for a basic Space Marine army, Predators remain a decent choice. However in a Chaos army, Obliterators generally give you more for what you pay for, there isn't any reason not to take Obliterators over Predators.

This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2008/05/17 09:42:01


IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.

New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights!
The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.  
   
Made in de
Wrathful Warlord Titan Commander






germany,bavaria

Vaktathi wrote:


entschuldigung, mein Deutsch ist nicht so gut jezt, aber können Sie mehr Zeit nehmen Ihre englischen Antworten zu schreiben? sie sind schwierig zu lesen. Danke


Sorry for it.more used to read than write english.

your German is good enough,no need to Worry.

Anyway, for a basic Space Marine army, Predators remain a decent choice. However in a Chaos army, Obliterators generally give the you more for what you pay for, there isn't any reason not to take Obliterators over Predator.


Target locked,ready to fire



In dedicatio imperatum ultra articulo mortis.

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We were wrong. It's not the 40k End Times. It's the Trademarkening.
 
   
 
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