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well now id have to say that really does look like a killer army, you've got a it right under my books..except for the leaders my veiw of them is with a few more upgrades but other wise well done

id say now that this army is good, i wouldnt really chnage anything at all, but me being me i like me battlesuits with more upgrades but other wise well done

Go test it out and tell us how it performs.

Not all horrible, but...

You've only got 2 crisis suit units.

You have pathfinders.

You have no Piranhas with seekers, instead you plan on firing front shots.

No Kroot Hounds in your kroot unit? I5 will make you pay the price for such folly.

It isn't competitive...was it supposed to be?

Stelek wrote:Not all horrible, but...

You've only got 2 crisis suit units.

True. I might run 3 units of 2 as opposed to 2 units of 3

You have pathfinders.

Yes, with cover saves running rampant in V5, I figured a bunch of Markerlights would be useful. Plus everyone is recommending Pathfinders.

You have no Piranhas with seekers, instead you plan on firing front shots.

60 points for an easily destroyed model worries me before adding seekers. I can live with front shots.

No Kroot Hounds in your kroot unit? I5 will make you pay the price for such folly.

Still debating the hounds. I intend to keep the Kroot in cover for the miost part where the low I isn't so bad.

It isn't competitive...was it supposed to be?

Yes, but also fun. I'm not a tournie weenie, but a casual player.

Your main opponent does not really care about cover saves, since your primary attacks do not negate his armor save.

A handful of markerlights is better than a unit full of them.

Piranhas are not easily destroyed, they do not cost 60 points, and front shots vs AV13 or 14 (you know, tanks) means you're spending points that won't do anything. Against side armor 11 however, much greater chance of a penetrating hit and thus for destruction.

Cover + assault grenades = Kroot are still crap I and will go last.

I think you'll find your list isn't fun when it loses, as your understanding of 5E is flawed in many of your assumptions.

True. I might run 3 units of 2 as opposed to 2 units of 3

I totally agree. It will give you a little flexibility.

Inappropriate comments deleted by the Mods.

Stelek wrote:they do not cost 60 points

My codex disagrees with you.

Mind extrapolating on your other comments?

Assault grenades are in the 5E rulebook.

The new damage table is in the 5E rulebook.

Piranhas with the correct upgrades do not cost 60 points, read your Codex again and explain why a 60 point piranha cannot fire seeker missiles....and why it's also extra useless after it drops it's seekers.

You have 16 markerlights. You really need that many? Explain why you need SIXTEEN in the context of your army. I run 4 myself, and that's enough.

Stelek wrote:Assault grenades are in the 5E rulebook.

The new damage table is in the 5E rulebook.

Which I do not have current access to. Soon to be rectified. I'm having to go off of what's here for advice, which is kind of the point of posting in any forum...

Piranhas with the correct upgrades do not cost 60 points, read your Codex again

I checked, and it's right on P39. of Codex: Tau Empire, Piranha: 60pts +10 per Seeker Missile, so that's between 70 & 80 points for a 11/10/10 Skimmer. For those kind of points I'd rather have more Fireknife suits.

and explain why a 60 point piranha cannot fire seeker missiles....

Because they're 10 point upgrades to a 60 point vehicle that doesn't have them. If you're gonna tell somebody to read their Codex, you might want to check it first so you don't come across as a tool.

and why it's also extra useless after it drops it's seekers.

Well, it's got a burst cannon so it's a fast platform for BS3 S5 AP5 shots, and S5 AP5 is rare and hard to come by in a Tau army. Or I could make it a Fusion Blaster platform, which means that it's 75pts (with 1 seeker) or 85pts (with 2) and again, I can get some nice, tactically flexible Crisis suits or a 11 Kroot + Hound scoring unit.

Yes, you are coming across as a tool. I'm still trying to help you without posting my own list, which is measurably better than yours.

Since you apparently cannot read the forums that contain the information on 5E, here you go:

Assault grenades = assault in initiative order. I10 cover is gone.

Single damage table. 40K. Google it if you aren't sure, but it's ONE roll on ONE table. That means penetrating hits aren't 3+ death with Tau weapons anymore.
AP1 don't convert to auto pens anymore either.

Dude if you deep strike battle suits, they're dead.
Gonna scout your pathfinders, are ya? With a long range, what's the point? So you can get bolter'd at 18"? Yeah, that's a good idea!

Be serious. I've rarely had the use for 4 markerlights, let alone 16.

You say you want advice, but your list is a bunch of FW.

Do you understand that FW are the rubbish of the Tau army, and suck at everything? That pathfinders are FW with a markerlight?

I run 10 crisis suits, 2 railheads, 2 big units of kroot w/hounds, 1 FW unit, 5 piranhas, and 3 sniper teams.

All the FA is crap. If it isn't a crisis suit, the HQ and elites are also crap. The kroot do allright, but most Tau troops choices are crap. Calling the pathfinders non-troops is silly. They ARE troops, they just make you use a FA slot instead.

You have ALOT of troops. This means you have alot of crap.

I believe I've spent...85 points on my 1 crap unit.

You? 600+? Yay...you can infiltrate your pathfinders and put the FW in the pathfinders devilfish. Clever, we didn't notice the cunning plan. If you even knew about that, but you didn't know the other things so who knows.

You plan on ringing the doorbell from the front, when you can ring it from the side door. Well, enjoy swimming upstream...and your list ain't no salmon.

Piranhas should have fusion guns, seeker missiles and maybe disruption pods. Maybe you would want another fireknife suit for those points. Maybe you should already have 10? At some point, being able to get strength 8 side shots on armor will actually be more useful than another fireknife.

I assume you were being sarcastic when you said Str5 AP5 is rare and hard to come by in a tau army. Which is why you go fusion (though your dont often get to use it, people act terrified of it for some reason)

Fire Warriors do suck. I've been playing with 3 or 4 85 point squads for 5th edition to try to be competitive in the take-and-hold mission in 5th edition. God I hate them.

Kroot can get by without hounds if you intend them to do nothing but shoot and infiltrate. They are terrible shooters but really not any worse than fire warriors, and it's nice to have them come in off the side of the board. But if you can get hounds in there do it. They will get absolutely decimated by pretty much anything in close combat otherwise. Everyone and their mom has assault grenades so you'll be going in initiative order even in cover. Yes there are things you can take in CC, but not much.

Cover saves existed in 5th edition. Tau mobility tends to be able to negate intervening-units cover saves for the units it really matters for (plasma crisis). It's not like people didn't sit in ruins before, and you didn't need 16 markerlights then either. With 3 85 point FW squads and two sniper drone teams at 1850 you have 5 markerlights, 2 with BS 4. This tends to be plenty. Sure you can give the devilfish to the firewarriors, big whoop. Sure pathfinders only cost 12 points per markerlight, big whoop. Most of your targets will be getting 3+ armor saves. Most units you'd kill with your AP5 (guard, eldar, gaunts) are going to be the intervening model anyway, or they're going to be entrenched in real 4+ cover just like last edition. You're just as well off increasing your BS as you are decreasing their cover save in most cases. You didn't need 2 markerlight hits on everything in 4ed, why do you need 4 now? They're a bonus, but far from necessary, and there are better ways to spend the points.

Lambadomy, another person who makes sense.

STOP THE MADNESS!!!!!!

Stelek wrote:Yes, you are coming across as a tool.

Yeah, sorry about the hostility there, but when someone tells me to check my Codex in reference to a point value that is actually the one printed in the Codex, I get defensive, and it sets me on a bad footing. I'll try to be more civil to you if you'll agree to return the favour.

I'm still trying to help you without posting my own list, which is measurably better than yours.

Well, I appreciate the help. I just bristled at the initial tone that was basically "this list is CRAP!" with a justification which had at least one factual error. I'm not saying the list isn't crap, but there may be better ways of addressing it. I have a thick skin for YMDC posts but the Army List forum has generally been friendlier...

Since you apparently cannot read the forums that contain the information on 5E, here you go:

Assault grenades = assault in initiative order. I10 cover is gone.

Okay, that's a huge change that I missed while scanning through all the many speculative and solid rumors about V5, I stand corrected.

Single damage table. 40K. Google it if you aren't sure, but it's ONE roll on ONE table. That means penetrating hits aren't 3+ death with Tau weapons anymore.
AP1 don't convert to auto pens anymore either.

Okay, I did some more googling and will eat humble pie here. I am an idiot.

Dude if you deep strike battle suits, they're dead.
Gonna scout your pathfinders, are ya? With a long range, what's the point? So you can get bolter'd at 18"? Yeah, that's a good idea!

Be serious. I've rarely had the use for 4 markerlights, let alone 16.

Yeah, I'll be reducing my Markerlights to a more sane number. Likely 4-5 and spreading them out more so I have some granularity of fire.

You say you want advice, but your list is a bunch of FW.

Do you understand that FW are the rubbish of the Tau army, and suck at everything? That pathfinders are FW with a markerlight?

I know they're not very good, but they are the mainstay of Tau troops, and I want this to be a Tau list not just a Kroot 'N' Suit build. I think I'll be running 2 small units of FW in Iteration 4.

I run 10 crisis suits, 2 railheads, 2 big units of kroot w/hounds, 1 FW unit, 5 piranhas, and 3 sniper teams.

Ooh, nasty. I like the idea here. I might take a variant on this, though I wonder if I could squeeze a Broadside in somewhere.

All the FA is crap.

True, Tau aren't a fast army. I see them as a fire and manouvre force.

If it isn't a crisis suit, the HQ and elites are also crap.

Good job all my HQ & Elite are Crisis then, eh?

The kroot do allright, but most Tau troops choices are crap. Calling the pathfinders non-troops is silly. They ARE troops, they just make you use a FA slot instead.

Don't think I called them non-troops. And most troop choices in 40K are crap, it's not just a Tau issue.

You have ALOT of troops. This means you have alot of crap.

I believe I've spent...85 points on my 1 crap unit.

Well, that's why I post, so I can optimize my list.

You? 600+? Yay...you can infiltrate your pathfinders and put the FW in the pathfinders devilfish. Clever, we didn't notice the cunning plan. If you even knew about that, but you didn't know the other things so who knows.

You plan on ringing the doorbell from the front, when you can ring it from the side door. Well, enjoy swimming upstream...and your list ain't no salmon.

Your points are well taken. Look out for a majorly changed 4th Iteration list real soon.

Oh and can I use that last doorbell/salmon line in my sig?

I promise I'll play nice when everyone understands what I am trying to say. lol

A all mech list (we've gotten to calling them Mechzillas) is horrific to have to play against, if you don't want kroot n'suit. However I think that mech Tau are the only place for FW units. Small numbers of FW, not big old WOO 12 guys and...I killed a marine kinda crap.

You can always drop a railhead for a broadside team.

I prefer getting a 4+ save on the vehicles because they don't get obliterated on a 3+/2+ from lascannons if I fail...need a 5+ on railheads.

Of course you can sig anything I say lol.

Stelek wrote:A all mech list (we've gotten to calling them Mechzillas) is horrific to have to play against, if you don't want kroot n'suit. However I think that mech Tau are the only place for FW units

Interesting. I might retool for all mech. What would you recommend for troops in all mech? I qould guess 4 x 6 FW, in a Fish w/Disruption Pod, Tracker, Seeker? Plus 3 Railheads?

Ah well, that's for Version 5...

Here's
TAU 1850 LIST - ITERATION 4

HQ 1
Shas'o
Missile Pod
Plasma Rifle
Multi-Tracker
87

ELITE 1
3 Crisis
1 Team Leader Upgrade
Missile Pods
Plasma Rifles
Multi-Trackers
Bonding Knife
196

ELITE 2
3 Crisis
1 Team Leader Upgrade
Missile Pods
Plasma Rifles
Multi-Trackers
Bonding Knife
196

ELITE 3
2 Crisis
Missile Pods
Plasma Rifles
Multi-Trackers
124

TROOPS 1
6 Fire Warriors
Shas'ui
Markerlight
H/W Target Lock
85

TROOPS 2
6 Fire Warriors
Shas'ui
Markerlight
H/W Target Lock
85

TROOPS 3
15 Kroot Carnivores
3 Kroot Hounds
123

TROOPS 4
15 Kroot Carnivores
3 Kroot Hounds
123

FAST ATTACK 1
2 Piranhas
2 Fusion Blasters
4 Seeker Missiles
2 Disruption Pods
180

FAST ATTACK 2
2 Piranhas
2 Fusion Blasters
2 Seeker Missiles
2 Disruption Pods
160

HEAVY SUPPORT 1
Hammerhead
Railgun
2 Burst Cannons
2 Seeker Missiles
Disruption Pod
Multi-Tracker
185

HEAVY SUPPORT 2
Hammerhead
Railgun
2 Burst Cannons
2 Seeker Missiles
Disruption Pod
Multi-Tracker
185

HEAVY SUPPORT 2
2 Sniper Drone Teams
160

TOTAL 1849 POINTS

This list is very similar to what I run right now when I'm trying real hard and is pretty effective. It is also similar to a list Stelek built if you dig through the army list forums.

Few things:

You probably have too many seeker missiles now. 10 is a lot. You only have 4 markerlights now so in a 6 turn game if everyone lives you'll get something like 14 markerlight hits, and need 10 of them to fire seekers. I'd drop the ones from the hammerheads.

The kroot squads - good start, maybe perfect, maybe not. Personally I'd play with more hounds if I could, but in say a tournament I have to run all kroot since my hounds are uh, nonexistant. YMMV, I'd test it out and see what you like. 3 hounds doesn't feel like it's going to get enough attacks in at I5 to save your butt. I'd start at more like 6. I also have a soft spot for the 12 hound/18 kroot squad for 198 points but I am also insane. But take that squad and go to ground in a forest with a loot counter...hah.

Crisis suits are good - could go either way with the bonding knives, you're paying 10 points for each one with the TL upgrade and the knife itself, not sure if it's worth it, especially since dudes left alone I think still have to make last man standing checks.

If you lose the bonding knives and 4 of the seekers and maybe a couple kroot you can add a 10th crisis suit, or a 5th piranha you can move one of the seekers onto. But those changes aren't totally necessary, as is this list seems pretty solid.

As for the all-mounted or all mech tau list, you can do a lot more than 4x6 FW - at 1850 you can pretty easily fit in 6 devilfish with seeker missiles and 6 FW each, 3 railheads, and 3 piranhas. You may have to lose the Multitracker on the Devilfish to make it fit if you take a crisis HQ, but if you really wanted to be silly you could just make your HQ an ethereal and hide him in one of the devilfish.

Sniper drone teams are crap. They are in no way worth the points they cost and they certainly aren't worth dropping either a railhead or a broadside team for.

Four piranhas is overkill. More than two is overkill for that matter. Those points are better spent elsewhere.

To be honest, I think the example list Stelek has for you is garbage for 5th. Any horde army will destroy it. In fact, that list is going to pull more draws than anything.

Markerlights are far from useless. Negating cover saves for vehicles and turbo-boosting bikes will be damn useful. I think 2 units of pathfinders is excessive, but either one squad of pathfinders or a stealth team with marker drones is reasonable.

I suggest settling on one list and testing it out. You can theoryhammer all you want but you don't really get the full picture until you try a list out on the table.

Ill also stick my neck out and say that I dont like or fear the pirana-suit list very much. Guess it depends on how much full LOS blocking cover you have. If you have alot then all those suits will be a problem, but if you have more of the "normal" gw stuff, there will probably be nothing to hide in.

lambadomy wrote:As for the all-mounted or all mech tau list, you can do a lot more than 4x6 FW - at 1850 you can pretty easily fit in 6 devilfish with seeker missiles and 6 FW each, 3 railheads, and 3 piranhas. You may have to lose the Multitracker on the Devilfish to make it fit if you take a crisis HQ, but if you really wanted to be silly you could just make your HQ an ethereal and hide him in one of the devilfish.

I don't think I could, as Crisis Commanders are 1+ in my Codex...

yeah, good point, I didn't actually check that. I'd never actually played it with an ethereal but thought it might be possible when slapping together the army yesterday.

I think at this point you do just need to pick something and play a lot with it.

.....Umm you're squads look too fragile to me.

First, you're spending the points on broasides, but not on keeping them alive, they "need" sheild drones. I don't care if they get a 4+, I always take a team leader and give him 2 shield drones. (Good job on the A.S.S., ALWAYS the way to go! )

Also, Take a Shas'ui in the firewarrior teams, and give them bonding! The ability to rally under half is very good in 5th edition for troops where even 1 firewarrior can claim the objective.

Also, Drop the seeker missiles on the Hammerhead AND the devilfish! They won't be behind the enemy tanks, thats what pirahnas are for.

I don't like Pathfinders, But I think they are a great choice in fifth. Thumbs up on that.

Lastly,

I've played tau for a while, and even though it's like a rule to take Plasma/Missile pods on the crisis, I like to take this.

1 squad of (3) Crisis Suits[Twin-plasma+Targeting Arrays+Team Leader+Bonding+2-Shield drones] 235pts.
AND
1 squad of (3) Crisis Suits[Twin-Missile Pods+Targeting Arrays+Team Leader+Bonding+2-Shield drones] 199pts.

Then team the plasma with the shas'o for "Elite" Hunting, and support the line with the missile suits. (No Multi-Tasking)

Just some Ideas. Good list, just bond the fire warriors at least! Please

(Edit: Stupid D key )

Stelek wrote:Yes, you are coming across as a tool. I'm still trying to help you without posting my own list, which is measurably better than yours.

Since you apparently cannot read the forums that contain the information on 5E, here you go:

Assault grenades = assault in initiative order. I10 cover is gone.

Single damage table. 40K. Google it if you aren't sure, but it's ONE roll on ONE table. That means penetrating hits aren't 3+ death with Tau weapons anymore.
AP1 don't convert to auto pens anymore either.

Dude if you deep strike battle suits, they're dead.
Gonna scout your pathfinders, are ya? With a long range, what's the point? So you can get bolter'd at 18"? Yeah, that's a good idea!

Be serious. I've rarely had the use for 4 markerlights, let alone 16.

You say you want advice, but your list is a bunch of FW.

Do you understand that FW are the rubbish of the Tau army, and suck at everything? That pathfinders are FW with a markerlight?

I run 10 crisis suits, 2 railheads, 2 big units of kroot w/hounds, 1 FW unit, 5 piranhas, and 3 sniper teams.

All the FA is crap. If it isn't a crisis suit, the HQ and elites are also crap. The kroot do allright, but most Tau troops choices are crap. Calling the pathfinders non-troops is silly. They ARE troops, they just make you use a FA slot instead.

You have ALOT of troops. This means you have alot of crap.

I believe I've spent...85 points on my 1 crap unit.

You? 600+? Yay...you can infiltrate your pathfinders and put the FW in the pathfinders devilfish. Clever, we didn't notice the cunning plan. If you even knew about that, but you didn't know the other things so who knows.

You plan on ringing the doorbell from the front, when you can ring it from the side door. Well, enjoy swimming upstream...and your list ain't no salmon.

If he doesn't have "A Lot" of troops, He's going to lose them all, and "Not" win. and Firewarriors are bad at killing thing on there own, But with support, they Can kill anything short of High armour vehicles.

Still, I run a ton of suits as well, But that's because I just can't bring myself to pay for Devilfish to move my Firewarriors around in. So they Just "Guard" the Broadsides...

And Kroot are the way to go, Agree with you there, Hounds Too.

lambadomy wrote:You probably have too many seeker missiles now. 10 is a lot. You only have 4 markerlights now so in a 6 turn game if everyone lives you'll get something like 14 markerlight hits, and need 10 of them to fire seekers. I'd drop the ones from the hammerheads.

You have a good point, and I think I'm going to basically drop the Seekers from both railheads and use the points saved to bump up to 6 Kroot Hounds in each Kroot unit. If my math is right, that comes to 1845pts.

So thanks everyone who contributed, particularly Stelek, lambadomy & Flagg07. your advice has been invaluable and I think I've tweaked my Kroot 'N' Suit list as far as I can without becoming bogged in Theoryhammer.

Now to find out what my main opponent's 1K Sons will look like in 5th...

Stelek wrote:Of course you can sig anything I say lol.

I don't see anything sigworthy. . .. .