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Kilkrazy wrote:I hope they don't make SMs too good because if they did, everyone will want to play them.

At the moment it is a refreshing change of pace to find an SM army among the endles hordes of IG, DE, Necrons and so on.

Bandwagon jumpers happen with every new codex, so you really shouldn't be surprised there.

Geez guys. This thread is made completely out of knee-jerk reactions. More than most threads here.

There have been a couple people on that same thread that seem to validate most of the rumours though. So get your hankies, because your crying circle is going to need a fresh supply.

All I'm saying is: Pics or it didn't happen.

A mail order troll as a reliable source? COME ON, people. Let's get some perspective here.

Iorek wrote:All I'm saying is: Pics or it didn't happen.

A mail order troll as a reliable source? COME ON, people. Let's get some perspective here.

Point to you Iorek, and maybe my knee was jerking pretty hard on this one. How long until Codex: Space Marines drops though? I'm excited / interested / afraid to see what actually happens in those hundres of pages

- Salvage

And, isn't Jervis writing this Codex?

Come on!

Well, this coupled with the information that my sisters won't recive an update till 2011/12 (if ever) then I know what my sisters are gonna count as.

Hmm... Now what would Battle Sister Terminator armour look like?

I see no reason to panic, as none of the pts costs are listed yet.

Hence I really dig the rumors. Plenty of coolness and flavor and options are back, yet it sounds pretty certain the toys add up!

Looks like my Crescent Guard are getting plenty of reinforcements this fall WONDERFUL!

seems a bit mutch oke new younits new rools ad options but free weapen upgades now what can't be treu.
seems wai to mutch only thing I heart was that a standart marine woud have a bolter bolt pistol frag and krak granades

OMZ!

Okay, now that that's over with, this is about as reliable as the Pan Fo being reviled or plastic Cadians. Frankie says relax.

Having said that, SM are going to get uber (though maybe not this wish list) because they're marines, because old habits die hard, and as a result, people will continue to tool their lists up to deal with MEqs, which means any of the 'fixes' that were meant to make 5th better will be for naught. [/old-school rant]

Now go play some Warmachine. Or Fantasy. Or Gloire!

I am glad I didnt do Sallies now. Soon they are going to be choice #1 for kiddies everywhere and will get a borkan rep, even I if never take this special character.

@Orlanth:
If I know what you play and bring enough kiddies to start this army too,you will drop what you wanted and play
something else to evade little kiddies? :S

@syr8766:

Why play anything else ?

uber marines for the win

they made chappies WS/BS 4? I was hoping that rumor was not true, i wonder what the reasoning is? to make masters the uber CC character in the book?

this is making me really curious to see what pans out.

Reecius wrote:they made chappies WS/BS 4? I was hoping that rumor was not true, i wonder what the reasoning is? to make masters the uber CC character in the book?

this is making me really curious to see what pans out.

It's been pretty much discounted. The source of the rumour is the quick reference guide in the back of the 5th Ed. Rulebook....which if IIRC is full of errors.

About the only thing in those rumers without an unmentioned price hike is the free heavy weapons for a 10 man squad, which i honestly don't care all that much about. A ten man marine squad can have a free heavy weapon and be a squad of 9 marines that will never do anything with their lascanon friend.

Everything else will probably come hand in hand with a healthy increase in price, and I can't imagine the new land raider or IC dreads being cheap at all. And I highly doubt any of the special characters that give army wide bonus' being sub 200 pts. Though who knows, maybe its a overblown ultradex that will crush evrything else. I can't see the future. Spehz mareens are supposed to be a low model count high power army, if they raise the price of every model in the book I'll be happier for it.

Also rage.

Additional changes between SM dex 2004 and rulebook 2008:

all stats on normal order!

...............................SM 2004...........................5th ed 2008

techmarine_____=>____4,4,4,4,2,4,2,9,3+_________4,4,4,4,1,4,1,8,2+

honorguard=
commandsquad?_=>____4,4,4,4,1,4,1,8,3+_________4,4,4,4,1,4,2,10,2+

apothecary______=>____4,4,4,4,1,4,1,8,3+_________4,4,4,4,1,4,2,9,3+

The chart in the rulebook has no vets,but honorguard.Don't know if this is identic.
The upgrade apothecary is a entry in the rulebook,maybe rules like the techmarine to add him ?
Honorguard has two attacks, morale 10 and a save 2+
Techmarine lost an attack,a morale point and got a 2+ save :S
Captains have a 4+ invul save now


Should be every change I've seen.

The part about the twinlinked heavy bolter (and autocannons and so on) dreads made the post lose a whole level of credibility (can you say that?).

I mean, it sounds cool (customizable!!!), but I doubt it...i mean that everything will happen.

Greets
Schepp himself

Crusherjoe wrote:
-The special characters are designed to be taken by any chapter using "counts as" rules.
-If you give a commander a bike, bike squads are troops.
-Tac squads
-Drop pod assault:
-3 Dread options - Standard, Venerable, and Ironclad
-Sternguard vets have DW style ammo, 2 can take special/heavies/special CCW
-Vanguard vets are similar but are combat-heavy and can have jump packs as an option.
-Combi-Grenade launchers,
-Crusader is now cheaper but does not come with the multi-melta - but this can be purchased as a pintle mounted weapon - -There are 13 special characters in total. White Scars character confirmed. No model as yet for him or Vulkan.

Overall, while this sounds like a big change in power (upward), I don't think it's what many people seem to think. And most of this will depend on points costs, which haven't yet been revealed. Also, which bodes really well for IG, is that the SM are being rebalanced a bit more toward center with a more equal balance of fighty units and options to complement their current shooty options.

Also, I notice that the bulk of sexy stuff is non-Scoring non-Troops. In particular, the Elites slots compete very heavily, so this is excellent army design, taken from how Fantasy Specials tend to compete very heavily.

The Special Characters and HQ options (Bikes) sound like they're the new Traits, and the 0-2 HQ limitation and Chapter requirement likely does a good job of keeping things from getting out of hand.

The Tac squad rule is a good balance against the old 5-10 and the newer Combat Squads, but really is unfortunate that GW didn't force Combat Squads on all SM. Combat Squads are distinctive and a fair trade against limited size options.

The new plastic Drop Pod model won't sell itself, so the Daemons-like rules tweak to let half arrive turn 1 is obvious. It amuses me that Daemonstrike is bad but Podstrike is good, when the rule seems to be the same.

The Dreads are a nod to the new simple plastic model in the starter set. Gotta collect more! But as they're Elites and compete with starter Termies, along with Vets, I don't see the problem. You get 3 slots for cool, expensive Non-Scoring models. Go nuts guys!

Sternguard are basically the same as now, but making DW obsolete. I wonder what the points bump will be. Vanguard are basically the same as BA Honor Guard, and I wonder if they will be costed similarly, with mandatory Vet Sergeants for each.

Combi-Grenade Launchers are nice, but I kind of miss the 2E launchers.

Crusader didn't really need a points cut, even with the Multi-Melta drop. It'll be nice to see what happens if/when Inquisition gets redone.

Boss_Salvage wrote:
Pure hate from me, shocked that the same design team that gave us the new CSM codex - which I can deal with and have even learned to like - turned around and amped the freaking hell out of the SM codex

When you consider that SM had to lose "Traits", but still be protected as the sole source of GW profit, the Codex makes a lot of sense.

In comparision to the CSM Codex, Chaos has a lot more and better Troops options with CSM, Cult Marines, and Daemons; SM has Tacs, Scouts, and Bikes (which was a mistake - White Scars should have been forced to play as Ravenwing). SM have better Elites, which trade of fewer slots and Non-Scoring. I don't see a significant power shift here, but I suspect the sexy new options are going to drive SM army model count down, in the same way that the CSM got a bit pricier.

NaZ wrote:would totally wipe out the point of blood angels, black templar, and dark angels if basic marines are that crazy good.

Blood Angels are the only way to get Assault Marines as Troops, along with Death Company. DA are still the only way to get Termies as Troops. And Templars are still the only guys with the throwback structures allowing Troops to take Heavies with less than 10 SM. But yeah, more homogenization and fewr options would have been better.

this is probably the most sickening rumour ever

Iorek wrote:All I'm saying is: Pics or it didn't happen.

A mail order troll as a reliable source? COME ON, people. Let's get some perspective here.

Listen to the Panzerbjorne! Mail Order Trollz aren't even capable of adjudicating simple rules questions. You think someone really found one that decided to sit on the phone with a copy of the new Marine Dex and give away the keys to the castle? No way.

Schepp himself wrote:The part about the twinlinked heavy bolter (and autocannons and so on) dreads made the post lose a whole level of credibility (can you say that?).

Twinlinked Heavy Bolter and Autocannons are old designs,available in dex SM 1998 and the last DA dex.
No GW-parts for it,but FW for sure!

syr8766 wrote:OMZ!


Having said that, SM are going to get uber (though maybe not this wish list) because they're marines, because old habits die hard, and as a result, people will continue to tool their lists up to deal with MEqs, which means any of the 'fixes' that were meant to make 5th better will be for naught. [/old-school rant]

Marines (generic, Ultra, non-BA) were pretty pants in 3rd, weren't they?

JohnHwangDD wrote:
Blood Angels are the only way to get Assault Marines as Troops, along with Death Company. DA are still the only way to get Termies as Troops. And Templars are still the only guys with the throwback structures allowing Troops to take Heavies with less than 10 SM. But yeah, more homogenization and fewr options would have been better.

The BA for Assault as Troops and DC, DA for Termis as Troops and BT for old school structure - yes.

"more homogenization and fewer options would have been better" - no.

Apparently, even GW has learned this lesson, and smartened up just in time.

Maybe.

Schepp himself wrote:The part about the twinlinked heavy bolter (and autocannons and so on) dreads made the post lose a whole level of credibility (can you say that?).

I mean, it sounds cool (customizable!!!), but I doubt it...i mean that everything will happen.

Greets
Schepp himself

imperial armour dreads have dose choses I em ordering me a new chapine dreadnought whit twinlinked autocanon ( juist love the look of it )

Twin-linked autocannons for both arms? I guess the Mortis pattern Dreadnought is no longer a Dark Angels exclusive then..

I'm gonna bet that if you give Scouts a Land Speeder transport it makes them Fast Attack instead of troops. With the new Scoring Unit rules, I'm skeptical that GW would make it that easy for SM to have late-game scoring units like that.

BrookM wrote:Twin-linked autocannons for both arms? I guess the Mortis pattern Dreadnought is no longer a Dark Angels exclusive then..

I was thinking Raider-X/Rifleman...

Death By Monkeys wrote:I'm gonna bet that if you give Scouts a Land Speeder transport it makes them Fast Attack instead of troops. With the new Scoring Unit rules, I'm skeptical that GW would make it that easy for SM to have late-game scoring units like that.

you will buy the landspeeder from fast-attack with the scouts then at max 5 scouts in.
Makes a 1 choice per slot option,not a land speeder squad as standard/tornado/typhoon.Can live with that.

1hadhq wrote: @Orlanth:
If I know what you play and bring enough kiddies to start this army too,you will drop what you wanted and play
something else to evade little kiddies? :S

I dont mind sharing an army choice with kiddies. What I do mind is having the borkan chapter, it sours the background. Sallies are a distinct case, they were always fluffy and a tad underpowered, but not so much as to spoil the list.

Alpharius wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:
Blood Angels are the only way to get Assault Marines as Troops, along with Death Company. DA are still the only way to get Termies as Troops. And Templars are still the only guys with the throwback structures allowing Troops to take Heavies with less than 10 SM. But yeah, more homogenization and fewr options would have been better.

The BA for Assault as Troops and DC, DA for Termis as Troops and BT for old school structure - yes.

"more homogenization and fewer options would have been better" - no.

Apparently, even GW has learned this lesson, and smartened up just in time.

Maybe.

Sorry, gotta disagree. The more "niche" each army is, the more distinctive it is. It allows other armies to be much stronger in their respective niches, so they have stronger flavor in style of play. If SM were more iconic with stricter SM standard rules, and a narrower niche of capability, then CSM, BT, BA, etc. automatically become more distinctive. Creating a way for Bikes as Troops for example, is a terrible idea because it competes directly with DA Ravenwing. Now, GW is back to the foolishness of trying to split hairs and create narrow distinctions instead of having clear differences.

Yeah, until these rumors, I thought GW learned something from their WFB Army Books, but apparently not.

HURR!

Wow, glad I'm not a Chaos player.



So yeah, Legends, huh?

It all sounds pretty lame to me.

I don't beleive this vitriol, it goes against the flow of things thus far...and at the comatose pace of GW development a change in direction this sudden would be a death throw. I don't see it. There is a few key points that have been grabbed (that can be sourced already from any of the forums) and planted in to give the rest of the crap more credence.

I'm calling outright BS minus the stuff stolen from other sources.

This stuff doesn't sound that great. I mean, sure, a free missile launcher sounds nice, but if the pts go up on the basic marine by even one, I don't know if they'll sell Marine kits at all. I think for the new Dex to even break even with the old one, all these rumors will need to be true AND point costs will need to remain constant, mostly to make up for the AssCan nerf.

In fact, I think, if anything, the price of a basic Marine should drop. I think 13 pts would keep the army relatively balanced. And lots of the other options need to come down in price too. Take the Ironclad dread for example. Sure, it sounds good, but that rear armor 10 is a killer. If someone Deepstrikes behind you, it's game over. I wouldn't be surprised if they get a price drop too. The price in the current Marine Dex isn't really in line with how fragile dreadnoughts are. I'm also happy to see Venerables go back to WS and BS 5. They were overcosted in the current Dex.

Sure, you can say that the new Dex as presented here, even if it just breaks even with the current one, still leaves DA, BA, and BTs as weak in comparison. That may be true, but I think the fluff can totally justify it. I mean, the reason that all those other Chapters deviated from the Codex Astartes, which the Ultras follow more or less to a T, was because they had inferior geneseed. I think it makes perfect sense for the Ultras and their pure successors to be the most powerful, fluffwise anyway. But as I said before, even if all these rumors are true, Marines will be lucky to break even compared to the current Dex. If they really want to make them a playable, much less a competitive army, I think point cuts across the board are definitely in order. Heck, with Orks as cheap as they are for their statline, I wouldn't be opposed to 12 or even 11 pt Marines.

Am I right or am I right?