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Wehrkind wrote:Well, at least so far as heavy bolters go, they do have two troublesome downsides: they can't move and shoot, and when shooting at range the rest of the squad with bolters sit on their hands. Well, that and they are not a lascannon.

Nah, they just have *one* downside - they are not a Lascannon. After all, nobody seriously whines about their Bolters sitting idle when they're firing the Lascannon at a Tank.

Even for "FREE", I wouldn't ever take a Heavy Bolter in a Tactical squad, precisely because you're required to take the full 10 men first. If you could take a 5-man Combat Squad with "FREE" Heavy Bolter instead of Flamer (or Melta / Plasma), I'd consider the option. I think Heavy Bolters are only good en-masse, 4-deep in a Devastator squad. Otherwise, take the Lascannon.

Now OTOH, the "FREE" ML isn't so bad, because Krak is pretty close in performance to a Lascannon, but has the Frag mode to make up the difference. The ML is at least fieldable in a Tac squad - for 20 pts saved, but even so, you want ML en masse.

Lordhat wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:White Scars should have been forced to play as Ravenwing).

I agree with a lot of your post, but I can't let this slide. WS have always been 'the' Bike chapter, with the Ravenwing a close second. [SNIP]

Just to iterate, I HATE the DA, and BA combat squads rules, lack of customization and arbitrary restrictions. I felt S.M.'s to be very balanced before these changes.

"WS have always been the bike chapter" since RT/2E, or just for a little while in 3E?

I recall when I was playing back in 2E, DA RW got a boxed set and was somewhat popular, but I don't recall any WS set. Actually, I don't recall WS figuring much at all back in those days, aside from being an obligatory paint scheme. Back in RT, Mentor Legion seemed to be much more famous as the iconic White Marines. But I didn't pay so much attention to all of the Fluff, so you might be correct.

I went through the Anger and Denial phases over Combat Squads, etc. at the tail end of 4th Edition. My trigger was the Eldar Codex. I now accept Combat Squads and am increasingly OK with the new approach moving into 5th Edition. I'm also OK that armies go up and down in power relative to other armies. I think GW would tell you that the safest thing to do is to collect everything, then you'll always have the flavor of the week.

LOL That's why I have 6,000 points of Marines. I can literally put together 2,000 points worth of any marine type except for the extreme compositions; I.E. All Deathwing, White Scars (sniff), Etc.

I do however have enough models to field an all Jump infantry and Land Speeder support BA army at 2,000 points. And a (currently) effective Ravenguard army at 2500.

I'm trying to collect enough marines to play any chapter at any time, but if they ALL have the same organisational structure with limited variations on limited modifications to said structure, what's really the point of indicating a difference between any two?

EDIT: I want to reiterate, because I don't think I was as clear as I'd like in my last post:

IF the Whitescars get some decent rules that are not only effective, but also fluffy, I'll probably still play Marines. I can deal with the combat squads for a characterful representation of my Favorite chapter.

Well I seem to have answered my own question above. But I still think that If they're going to write rules for individual chapters they should write unique rules for those chapters. (Also, I am NOT basing my statements on the OP. Rumours are always rumours to me until I hold a copy in my hands. )

Well they actually do have the chapter specifc rules ifyou take the correct character. As to the representing White Scars well enough, you can see for yourself. There is a pic from the space marine book with the new white scar char in it and it tells you the chapter specific special rules for the white scars.

Kilkrazy wrote:I hope they don't make SMs too good because if they did, everyone will want to play them.

At the moment it is a refreshing change of pace to find an SM army among the endles hordes of IG, DE, Necrons and so on.

I can assure you it is the 100% reversal here in the states. There are more MEQ armies than anything else.

Red_Lives wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:I hope they don't make SMs too good because if they did, everyone will want to play them.

At the moment it is a refreshing change of pace to find an SM army among the endles hordes of IG, DE, Necrons and so on.

I can assure you it is the 100% reversal here in the states. There are more MEQ armies than anything else.

Depends on where in the states mayhaps, cause there ain't many marines `round these parts.

Aduro wrote:
Depends on where in the states mayhaps, cause there ain't many marines `round these parts.

lucky you.

New army books all around would be great. I cant wait for the guard rumors to start rolling around.

Aduro wrote:

Red_Lives wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:I hope they don't make SMs too good because if they did, everyone will want to play them.

At the moment it is a refreshing change of pace to find an SM army among the endles hordes of IG, DE, Necrons and so on.

I can assure you it is the 100% reversal here in the states. There are more MEQ armies than anything else.

Depends on where in the states mayhaps, cause there ain't many marines `round these parts.

Wait!

Did you just say "Mayhaps"?

Mayhaps he did, Alpharius. Mayhaps he did.

I used that term Thursday last, and would fain use it again soon.

Hey, doesn't one of the characters give twin linked to all bolters 'n such? I wonder (if this is true of course) how good Sturmguard Vets would be with the "bolt rounds of ap3 but gets hot!" with the Bolter Boost Character, possibly using a Drop Pod to Deepstrike into rapid fire range mayhaps.

Lordhat wrote:LOL That's why I have 6,000 points of Marines. I can literally put together 2,000 points worth of any marine type except for the extreme compositions; I.E. All Deathwing, White Scars (sniff), Etc.

I'm trying to collect enough marines to play any chapter at any time, but if they ALL have the same organisational structure with limited variations on limited modifications to said structure, what's really the point of indicating a difference between any two?

Well I seem to have answered my own question above. But I still think that If they're going to write rules for individual chapters they should write unique rules for those chapters.

Hey, 8,000+ pts of Eldar didn't appear out of nowhere, either. Back when Eldar had Craftworlds, I could put together GT-sized armies for any of them.

except Saim-Hann, but nobody played Saim-Hann, so they didn't matter

As Jervis himself showed with his grey marines, SM are easier than Eldar (or CSM) because you don't (didn't) have quite as many distinct unit types. You just need the Chapter-specific Characters and units to have a new army. Though GW is "fixing" that with the additional Elites to give SM players more stuff to collect. I'm taking a more measured (ha!) approach to my SM, with a core and options. But somehow, even that's gotten to roughly 4k pts.

I agree that GW should write unique, distinctive rules for Chapters, but that GW should do some serious thinking about what kinds of Chapters they should have, so that the various Chapters don't overlap too much.

Railguns wrote:Hey, doesn't one of the characters give twin linked to all bolters 'n such? I wonder (if this is true of course) how good Sturmguard Vets would be with the "bolt rounds of ap3 but gets hot!" with the Bolter Boost Character, possibly using a Drop Pod to Deepstrike into rapid fire range mayhaps.

I'm sure Sturmguard would be great with the twin-linked Character. But I'm not sure that you would want to take 3 units of them when the other Elites are so interesting, or that the narrowness of the list concept would provide as much benefit as a more diverse selection.

Alpharius wrote:Wait!

Did you just say "Mayhaps"?

Ummm.... Yes?

Aduro wrote:

Alpharius wrote:Wait!

Did you just say "Mayhaps"?

Ummm.... Yes?

You are a fit man, forsooth, to rule Dakka!

Verily!

Forsooth!

http://www.gucomics.com/archives/view.php?cdate=20080505

Well I have a copy in front of me and I can confirm it's all true, even the stuff that contradicts the other stuff.

However what a lot of people missed since it's in the fine print on the inside back cover is this:

Spase Marinez (HURR!) are intended as a starter army for new players. They may only be used by players younger than 18. More experienced players may use the Dark Angel codex which is traditionally intended for veteran players.

I think this is a reasonable choice on the part of GW and should silence a lot of critics.

Kid_Kyoto wrote:Well I have a copy in front of me and I can confirm it's all true, even the stuff that contradicts the other stuff.

Please tell me there are across-the-board point cuts. If not, Marinenz are dead. Oh noes!!

Kid_Kyoto wrote:I think this is a reasonable choice on the part of GW and should silence a lot of critics.

Are fake ID's that make you younger even possible?

BYE

If GW do a series of special marine chapters who each have some special feature, like bikes or something, and they have the Ultramarines as the vanilla marines chapter, what is the point in a separate SM codex that lets you make special chapters with bikes or something, or vanilla marines?

Sorry for the long sentence.

Are fake ID's that make you younger even possible?

If I ever get divorced, I'll let you know.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Are fake ID's that make you younger even possible?

BYE

I believe they are available in Hollywood and have been for years.

I'm wondering if they are going to put some special text in the book to say the older Marine books can use some if not all of the new units or if they are just going to get the cold shoulder? It would be pretty lame if the other chapters just had sit out and look at the new vanilla toys.

The 4th to 5th "Conversion FAQs" might address this.

But I think that the other SM chapters might just be left out in the cold on some of the new toys/units.

Presumably, the 'benefits' in their own codices will outweigh this the loss of new stuff...

Well while they're at converting Space Marines maybe they can convert me some daemonic gifts back . I still feel bad for the Space Wolves though, two editions and they're still using a third edition codex.

Hellfury wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:I hope they don't make SMs too good because if they did, everyone will want to play them.

At the moment it is a refreshing change of pace to find an SM army among the endles hordes of IG, DE, Necrons and so on.

Bandwagon jumpers happen with every new codex, so you really shouldn't be surprised there.

Geez guys. This thread is made completely out of knee-jerk reactions. More than most threads here.

There have been a couple people on that same thread that seem to validate most of the rumours though. So get your hankies, because your crying circle is going to need a fresh supply.

The only people who should play a new army should be people who played
all previous iterations of that army. That way we could run the paradox into
the reality machine and make sure GW never existed.

(Except Andy Chambers. I think he WAS an ork, once upon a time)

Heh!

Good one...

I don't think we have to worry about too many new SM players...

The ORKS are going to be where it is at in 5th!

Yes, grey plastic and black primered ork hordes will rule the galaxy!

Ye, verily, forsooth! (Which was our geek gangsign in college for about two weeks until something else shiney distracted us.)

yeah...

with the new SM special characters army-wide abilites.

Does the army lose the abilities if the Chartacter dies?
Eg if the sally character dies then no more twinned linked meltas/flamers

This is how it is with the tallyman epidemius.

...
PAnic...

Iorek wrote:Mayhaps he did, Alpharius. Mayhaps he did.

I used that term Thursday last, and would fain use it again soon.

[archaic perorative pedantic and pleonastic post]

Aye, methinks thou uses the term fain incorrectly. Verily and properly spelled as feign.
Mayhaps thou should agnize the local vocabulary constabulary with rogation and, anon, accept the tidings of 12 lashes as thy meed. If thou dost, t'would be a palliate salve to thee.


'I used the term Thursday last, and would deign to use it again soon, methinks.'

[/archaic perorative pedantic and pleonastic post]

You may all mock me now.

Double post, please delete

Hellfury wrote:

Iorek wrote:Mayhaps he did, Alpharius. Mayhaps he did.

I used that term Thursday last, and would fain use it again soon.

[archaic perorative pedantic and pleonastic post]

Aye, methinks thou uses the term fain incorrectly. Verily and properly spelled as feign.
Mayhaps thou should agnize the local vocabulary constabulary with rogation and, anon, accept the tidings of 12 lashes as thy meed. If thou dost, t'would be a palliate salve to thee.


'I used the term Thursday last, and would deign to use it again soon, methinks.'

[/archaic perorative pedantic and pleonastic post]

You may all mock me now.

Fain is actually a word, Hellfury, and it was used correctly. "Feign" is an altogether different word.

Fain