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Alpharius wrote:Oops!

My Bad!

The Blood Angel stories were so bad, that their sheer awfulness clouded my vision...

Apologies all around!

The Blood Ravens stories aren't exactly redeeming beacons of literary achievement. I'd say they suck equally.

People, MOST of the BL Space Marine books suck. It's great to create a race superhuman, completely devoted, single-minded, emotionless warriors for your GAME. Unfortunately, for a novel, they can have absolutely no character development if they want to stay true to the fluff.

I've read a lot of 40k novels. I'd have to say, the ones where Space Marines are the central characters are ALWAYS the worst.

Unless you just want to read about stuff blowing up. In which case, go for it. And start reading GI Joe, too...

I'd say that most (if not all) of the Dan Abnett books absolutley do not suck, and that the 40K set books suck a lot less than the WFB set books.

Other than Dan though, it is rather slim pickings.

The HH books that are in the 'main line' of the story have been surprisingly good, even the one by Mr. Swallow (author of the aforementioned execrable Blood Angels series) which leads me to believe that he either didn't really write it or someone else gave him a pretty fleshed out plot line to follow.

Or, maybe he just got better.

I'd see for myself when the latest in the Blood Angels series comes out, but, I'm too afraid to look...

Dan Abnett is the Grand Admiral of the Black Library fleet. When he writes a book, I buy it, immediately. I can't think of a single thing he's put out that was less than excellent on the first read through. His material even stands up to multiple sittings; my copy of the Eisenhorn omnibus is so dogeared that the book flops open to my favorite sections on its own. I picked it up to read on a flight back from Honolulu and he singlehandedly got me into this game. If Abnett were a chapter master I'd be his dedicated metal jockstrap polisher.

He even gave Space Marines some sort of emotional depth in Brotherhood of the Snake.

I think what happens with the other books is they toss the author a $50 to smash out their monthly novel in a weekend. They just seem hurriedly written and edited. Basic stuff like typos and wrong grammar.

If I had to plot out a hierarchy it'd look something like this:




Dan Abnett
Grand Series, Grand Series,
Miniseries, Miniseries, Miniseries, Miniseries
Standalone, Standalone, Standalone, Standalone, Standalone

sourclams wrote:Fleet? You mean their ONE SHIP? I'm only on page 160 now because I keep tasting throw-up when I turn every page but so far the Word Bearers' massed offensive is ONE SHIP with a "Chapter" (yes, Counter uses the word "chapter" to refer to a pre-Codex detachment of non-codex-that-doesn't-exist-yet Marines) of fanatics on it.... what the hell are the rest of the Word Bearers doing? Something more important? The fiefdom of Ultramar is an entire system, isn't it? It'd take one ship and a thousand marines years to put down the entire territory assuming they won every battle.

few points : The usage of the term chapter to denote a formation of around 1000 marines has been used, even in pre Heresy novels, for quite some time-- the main character in Angels of Darkness was a chapter master for example. Really a chapter master was another rank in the overall command structure of a legion.

As to the rest of the Word Bearers : some are in the Terra system awaiting further orders and the chance to do something no doubt really REALLY evil. Most/some of the rest of the Word Bearers are waiting for the ship to arrive and trhen spring their trap. This is stated a few times in the book,but perhaps further than you've read so far. Kor Phaeron is leading them.

I was suprised that Lorgar took no part in the novel and has not taken an active role in any of the novels yet.

reds8n wrote: few points : The usage of the term chapter to denote a formation of around 1000 marines has been used, even in pre Heresy novels, for quite some time-- the main character in Angels of Darkness was a chapter master for example. Really a chapter master was another rank in the overall command structure of a legion.

But the pre-heresy legions have no uniform organization. So while Dark Angels and Ultramarines might have chapters and chapter masters, the Iron Warriors have grand companies and warsmiths. According to Flight of the Eisenstein the entirety of the Death Guard consists of 7 companies each led by a captain - so no chapters, no chapter masters, and no 100-man companies (assuming the Death Guard Legion consists of more than 700 marines). In Fulgrim the Emperor's Children are organized into companies (of indeterminate size) led by captains who in turn fall under the command of 1 of the 2 lord commanders - no mention is made of chapters.

But the Word Bearers are organized into chapters? According to the IA article Word Bearers are supposed to be organized into "hosts" each led by a Dark Apostle. So does this come later? Or does Ben Counter just have no idea what he's talking about? Isn't he the guy who, after submitting a draft of Galaxy in Flames, was told to completely rewrite it because it bore absolutely no resemblance to the established background?

In Dark Apostle, one of the better-written standalones, the Word Bearers were broken into Coteries led by Dark Apostles who delegated command between various Captains.

My money is on Counter just screwing it all up. He can write Ultramarines because they're generic enough, he seems to get lost in all of the alternative chapter fluff. He did, however, refer to a few very small groupings as Covens, which as far as I can tell, is correct from a background material standpoint.

Good point, since isn't Lorgar basically the real "power behind the throne" in the Heresy?

I assume the changes to the Word Bearers came/come later-- presumably after they purge/purged themselves of any loyalist elements and move towards a more theocratic based leadership ?

The pre heresy legions did have largely uniform organisation, but this was then taken and molded and changed by the individual Primarchs from what I've read.


That said if I remember correctly he does have one of the Ultramrines claim to be a member of the 8th legion at some point, so.......

The comodey of a defence the WB lay down in the space port is a joke, and what happens on board their ship is just an insult.

Not to mention a lone World Eater in power armor hiding on board the Abyss from all those enemy Word Bearers. They found him on cameras in a cathedral but just couldn't seem to track him down.

Didn't Erebus help corrupt Lorgar? Is he the power behind the power behind the throne?

I'm hoping they do several books about the fall of the Word Bearers and the Night Lords, since they were heretics and renegades before Horus fell under the eight-pointed-star of chaos.

I am guessing that Lorgar got corrupted by Chaos before and then corrupted Erebus. This is pure speculation due to the fatc that it has not been explained yet.

According to the big HH picture book, Erebus was the first to switch to Chaos. He convinced Lorgar that the Emperor was a false god, and that they should workship 'real' (chaos) gods. Lorgar and Erebus then hatched their plan to convert Horus, and so on and so forth...

See all of this God talk just doesn't mesh with the way the universe was presented in Horus Rising- completely secular, by the Emperor's decree.

reds8n wrote: I assume the changes to the Word Bearers came/come later-- presumably after they purge/purged themselves of any loyalist elements and move towards a more theocratic based leadership ?

Weren't the Word Bearers the first to go to Chaos though?

This is what I remember of the origin fluff for Lorgar/Word Bearers:

Lorgar lands on Colchis, a planet governed by a theocratic city-state, much like the Holy Roman Empire. Lorgar's brilliant oratory and strength of faith gains him power and prestige until he's one of the top dogs on the planet, akin to a senior Cardinal. One day he's struck by a vision of the Emperor and Red Magnus coming to reuinite Colchis with the Imperium. He then subverts the faith that he had been preaching, proclaiming the Emperor as the manifestation of their god, and his coming as a sort of Messianic arrival.

Colchis is split between two factions, Lorgar's radicals and the conservative establishment. He plunges the planet into a civil war that encompasses everyone, eventually he wins after purging the unfaithful half of the population. The Emperor and Magus show up, Lorgar is granted command of the Word Bearers.

The Word Bearers continue the Great Crusade, but immediately fall far behind the other legions in progress because when they reclaim a population, they do it right, building grand cathedrals and universities proclaiming the Emperor as a living god, preaching the Imperial Word (which Lorgar wrote), and converting populations in thought as well as in action. The Emperor noticed this lack of progress and told Lorgar to cut out all the religious jibber jabber, pick up the pace, and quit being such a superstitious zealot.

Since that's kind of like telling the Pope to wear a yammakah and declare cows a sacred animal, Lorgar took the news pretty badly... like Red Magus/stop studying sorcery badly. He moped around his headquarters wearing a hair shirt for a couple of months.

Kor Phaeron was the first person in the Imperium to become fully aware of the Chaos Gods and their role in the Warp. I completely forget how. It was he who approached Lorgar with the alternative faith, presenting him with true gods who not only expected, but demanded worship. Lorgar threw off his hair shirt and began his crusade anew, kicking the gak out of everything he came across, reveling in the blessings of his newfound patron deities and their appreciation for his faith, and burning with a simmering resentment at the Emperor's casual dismissal of his fundamental personality flaw. He then set the ball rolling to convert the entire secular, enlightened Imperium to Chaos worship. Word Bearer chaplains made contact with other legions through the warrior lodges. The rest we know.

So Kor Phaeron was the guy who really started it all. He was the man with the idea, so to speak, the instigator. Lorgar really got the ball rolling, and under his leadership the Word Bearers corrupted Horus and plunged the Imperium into civil war.

You know, no one has mentioned this yet, so I'm going to do it.....theres a scene in this book, where the Ultramarine Cpt. or whatever he is, is talking to his subordinate....and one of them utters the phrase..."Have Faith in the Emperor!!!"

FAIL.FAIL.FAIL.FAIL.FAIL......

At this point, for those that don't yet know....At the time when the Emp was alive, he didn't want to be worshipped as a God.....in fact that was the whole reason that the Wordbearers were on their pathetic "war path"........so I can't imagine Ultra-blues slipping up on a point like this, can you.

This is the most blatant example of GW not knowing its arse from its elbow, and tripping over its own fluff.

If anyone out there is even considering buying this book, DON'T

Heres, my offer...UK only, send me a PM and I'll give you my copy and pay the postage....anything to stop you lining GW pockets as I did, and making them richer for this rubbish they call literature.

come and get your FREE COPY OF BATTLE FOR THE ABYSS...

Delephont wrote:You know, no one has mentioned this yet, so I'm going to do it.....theres a scene in this book, where the Ultramarine Cpt. or whatever he is, is talking to his subordinate....and one of them utters the phrase..."Have Faith in the Emperor!!!"

Dear sweet jesus.

I have just started the book (like 15 pages into the story), and I already have a few things that really bother me:

1.) We are introduced to one of the "main" characters as he is thinking in a chapel. WHAT?!? The EMPEROR mandated that there was no worship of ANY kind. That's why Captain Loken was so upset when he saw the fains (spelling?) on other worlds in the first few books. The EMPEROR demanded this. That's what the whole character of Sinderman (spelling?) was about. He was there to crush any OUTLAWED religion. What the HELL are CHAPELS doing on a space station? Now, I know that the spires on ships are referred to as cathedrals, but what would a place of worship be doing on a military instillation before the Heresy? Heck, it took a few thousand years for the Imperial Cult to even be established after the Heresy. Not to mention, it took a few thousand years for the Imperial Cult to rise to power after the cult was established. If this was a story that is set in M41, a chapel would be required. However, even though the chapel would be there, an Ultramarine would not be there for meditation. They have no respect for the Imperial Cult. They think that the Emperor is a man, not a god.

2.) The Word Bearers are referred to as a CHAPTER. I know, this has already been talked about, but hear me out. Roboute Guilliman wrote the Codex Astartes. I could believe that the Ultramarines, even before the Heresy, might be referred to by more traditional Codex titles, as their Primarch is the one that created the sacred text. But, under NO circumstances should other Legions even be referred to by this title during this time. EVERY Legion was different. EVERY ONE. They all had different ranks, different combat tactics, different deployment methods, even different approaches to war. Calling the Word Bearers a "Chapter" is like saying that the Space Wolves follow the Codex Astartes.

3.) Dark Apostles. This is a Word Bearer specialty. However, during the time period when the book is set, the whole Chaplain thing had JUST BEEN INTRODUCED. It was MANDATED by the EMPEROR to keep his BOYS in LINE. WHAT the HELL is a Dark Apostle doing in the Word Bearers Legion? The Word Bearers KILLED all of their Chaplains that did not convert over to Chaos. How long do you think it would take for a Chaplain, who has been indoctrinated to believe in the just rule of the Emperor, to be corrupted? For those who do not understand faith, like other Black Library authors that make insanity a more viable option than a battle of faith (Hammer of Daemons), you can not just FORGET your FAITH because of difficult circumstances. That's what faith is FOR. To HELP you through difficult times. If Chaplains had just been introduced by the Emperor, how were they corrupted so quickly? Even if we give the author the benefit of the doubt, and say that space/time differences can make days into years, how many years would it take to break down a Chaplain's faith?

It just seems to me that the author has NO CLUE about the time period in which he set his story. At least have an "Important Things to Remember" fact sheet for the HH authors to go by. MAN!!! And I even give the Black Library stuff a wide margin, as I am only too happy to read about Warhammer 40K. It just seems to me like they are not looking at what they are publishing, as more and more crap is being released....DofA, Hammer of Daemons, BA books......

If you are reading this, Black Library, have your staff READ the books before you publish them. It will make your business MUCH more successful...

In this time period aren't Chaplains introduced to ensure the policies of Nikea (sp ?-- the banning of the librarians/psykers in the marines) are followed as opposed to act as spiritual guides ? Assuming that the Word Bearers have been corupted for a fair while now then presumably there chaplains must have been as well....?

Regardless the amount of assuming one has to do shows the myriad of weaknesses of the book.

One other point I was wondering about : So the Emperor banned the use of psykers amongst the marines...... but not amongst Imperial army units like in Legion ? Seems a bit wierd that. Does anyone have any idea when this ban is rescinded then ? From memory I believe the current fluff restriction of Land Raiders being marine ( and I but they're always the exception) only was he ordered the few remaining ones to be given for the marines use and as he then fell the order has never been rescinded, so the marine ban must have been at some point presumably ?

@Souirclams, great fluff, where did you find it. I want to read it.

Thanks.

Wikipedia......its a better source for WH40K then the Black Library.

reds8n wrote: In this time period aren't Chaplains introduced to ensure the policies of Nikea (sp ?-- the banning of the librarians/psykers in the marines) are followed as opposed to act as spiritual guides ? Assuming that the Word Bearers have been corupted for a fair while now then presumably there chaplains must have been as well....?

Regardless the amount of assuming one has to do shows the myriad of weaknesses of the book.

One other point I was wondering about : So the Emperor banned the use of psykers amongst the marines...... but not amongst Imperial army units like in Legion ? Seems a bit wierd that. Does anyone have any idea when this ban is rescinded then ? From memory I believe the current fluff restriction of Land Raiders being marine ( and I but they're always the exception) only was he ordered the few remaining ones to be given for the marines use and as he then fell the order has never been rescinded, so the marine ban must have been at some point presumably ?

The emperor banned the active practice of sorcery, like the throwing of lightning bolts, summoning of warp creatures, pretty much everything that Librarians and Sorcerers do.

There were still many sanctioned uses for a soul-bound psyker. It seems that the logistical organization of the latent psykers in Legion would fall under this "support role" category of allowable use.

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

Delephont wrote:]Isstvan III - a world which will live in infamy.[/i] It is here that, with a single command, Horus plunges the entire galaxy into a confict the likes of which has never been seen, a war that will bring the Imperium of Man to its knees and condemn the human race to an eternity of darkness. Embarking on a path from which there can be no return, Horus orders the deployment of the Life Eater - a planet-killing weapon with the power to scour a world of all life. In a dreadful act of betrayal Horus' fleet initiates a full bombardment of Isstvan III with these most deadly of weapons - an attack so unthinkable, so unprecedented, so devious, so devastating, that... it basically does nothing because the good guys were hiding in the basement or something.

WTF??? So the Horus' war to end all wars starts off with a massive surprise attack that fails completely. Oh noes! Here comes scary Horus with his virus bombs! Oops. Three cheers for duck and cover! Better luck next time chap. Let the galaxy burn indeed.

Hold up see they had a 4+cover save LOL

When it came to Pskers you could use them. but if you read decent of angles they use pskers in that book. so why hate the sons it's sorry anger rant

So, I finished the book this morning and it really left alot to be desired.

I was expecting to see another book, including another primarch and actually getting some idea as to why they decided to convert to chaos. especially lorgar and the word bearers .... epic fail.

also.... yeah i was actually talking about the blood ravens. the dawn of war trilogy if that rings a bell. and yes, they suck as much as the blood angel books. I still have hope for Mechanicum though. Actually Im pretty excited about that. Possibly one of the best parts in Battle for the Abyss was the Mechanicum guys simply not caring about anything. Oh, we wont see fireworks? Hokay

edit: whats goin on with the whole warp thing? they know, they dont know, they can actually see it nowadays? it thought that was reserved for the navigators and all other viewports would be shut/ locked down? also... i didnt know it was possible to have another vessel dock during warp transit ....

I have a short way in and so far not bad. Okay so some of you hate the book but GOOD GOD is it really that big a deal? The 1st HH novel by Counter was fine but you fail to mention that at all. If BL is going to pump out 30 total then certainly some of them will be turkeys and if you think otherwise you are truly misguided pilgrims.

G

Delephont wrote:You know, no one has mentioned this yet, so I'm going to do it.....theres a scene in this book, where the Ultramarine Cpt. or whatever he is, is talking to his subordinate....and one of them utters the phrase..."Have Faith in the Emperor!!!"

FAIL.FAIL.FAIL.FAIL.FAIL......

At this point, for those that don't yet know....At the time when the Emp was alive, he didn't want to be worshipped as a God.....in fact that was the whole reason that the Wordbearers were on their pathetic "war path"........so I can't imagine Ultra-blues slipping up on a point like this, can you.

This is the most blatant example of GW not knowing its arse from its elbow, and tripping over its own fluff.

If anyone out there is even considering buying this book, DON'T

Heres, my offer...UK only, send me a PM and I'll give you my copy and pay the postage....anything to stop you lining GW pockets as I did, and making them richer for this rubbish they call literature.

come and get your FREE COPY OF BATTLE FOR THE ABYSS...

You seem to be at that stage where you have realised that BL put out very few quality products and are angry about that fact. There's no need to be angry, there's a whole world of literature out there - you just need to accept that as far as 40k goes (& WFB, =][=, Necro, etc etc) you can have one or two good books a year and that's it.

For the record I only bought the 2 Abnett HH books and have been very satisfied. The last BL book I got was "Ancient Blood" by Robert Earl, and again I was very happy with this book. The next BL product I anticipate I'll be buying (since they've slowed down on background books for the time being) will be either the Lorenzo & Florin Omnibus (Earl) or Titanicus (Abnett), whichever is first, can't quite remember. In the meantime I have been happily reading my usual stuff (Lovecraft, Pratchett, varoius random SF/Fantasy/Horror/Classic literature eg just bought Metamorphosis by Kafka and also the Gormenghast trilogy).

On the whole though I advise the same course of action that you do - everyone stop buying books about Spase Marines1!1 (hurrr), use your time more wisely - find out where Graham McNeil lives and post him parcels containing dead birds.

OK, just finished it tonight.

I don't know if it was due to the lowered expectations I had due to everything I read here but...

It wasn't *that* bad after all.

Faint praise, and barely any praise at that.

BUT, you absolutely do NOT have to read this book AT ALL if you're following the Hours Heresy story.

And that's the real crime.

Other than the story taking WAY too long to go exactly where you KNEW it had to go.

That, plus Ben Counter absolutely falling head over heels in love with the word ACTINIC.

That word shows up more in this book than in any other I've ever read.

Odd, really....

The HH series is really stumbling where they had a chance to shine: fleshing out the 'side' stories and giving some life and depth to the Primarchs themselves.

This 'side' story felt exactly like that: a side story that really didn't matter much, other than to show that there were good and noble Thousand Sons and World Eaters. But, we already knew that too.

A major missed opportunity.