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i'm pretty much with destrado on this, BUT, i do believe my CSM are pretty much screwed at this point... unless all that gets onto the tables are like 22 guys in a 1000-ish point game... then maybe not. nonetheless, I'm angry. Come onnnn chaos legions.....

What will this do for the Chaos Space Marine land raiders? Will Chaos now be able to put 12 in a LR or 6 Termies?

FU 2000 wrote:What will this do for the Chaos Space Marine land raiders? Will Chaos now be able to put 12 in a LR or 6 Termies?

Uh no. The older land raiders are smaller. And chaos doesn't get the newer ones, but they make up for it with possessed and dreadnoughts.

and don't forget the lovely spawn and to some extent the defiler

It looks like the Thunderfire will be neat with three modes:

1. Powerful blast
2. Cover ignoring blast (probably will be used the most)
3. Pinning blast (probably will count as ordinance barrage)

So techmarine + scouts with camo cloaks = 2+ cover save almost all the time? Pathfinder's just became a bit less impressive...

I blame global warming....

I'm not in love with the new rumours but I think CSM are not doing so bad. And yes, I play them.

CSM features two impressive features:

1. A wide range of great troops choices (many fearless)
2. A definite design ethos to make AP3 the new black - look at how many more ways to access AP3 were granted in this list.

And before you cry out at such sacrilegious endorsement, I am not emotionally crippled by the removal of Traitor Legions and their almost entirely broken rules.

Back on thread, biggest annoyances with SM rumours so far are

1. The apparent options to allow deep strike assaults same turn
2. Librarians to be able to use two powers per turn
3. The general idiom of 'we never met a 5th edition rules limitation we didn't then break with Marines'. I'm only waiting for the rule that says Marines can consolidate into a new combat and we'll have the full set...

two_heads_talking wrote:there's a crow's nest area for the terminator armored IC to join in.. he is stuck in like R2D2 in an X or Y wing..

Destrado wrote:Shiny as it may be, I expect these Marines to compare to the next few 'dexes like a 486 to a Dual Core.

And then we'll never see the end of these threads as Marienz will cry out in pain against Starcannons (H4 AP1, the future Codex: Eldar & Friends) that kills their Marines dead, Slaaneshi units (from the coming Codex: Chaos Legions: Slaanesh) that rape them, and finally (coming in Tantric style) a Dark Eldar Codex that kills them, then rapes them.

All this and more in 40k's 8th ruleset, where we find out (thanks to fluff progression at last!) that Abaddon lost his underwear somewhere in Cadia, meaning that the 13th Crusade was for nothing and Chaos lost again.

Be that as it may, I guess anything will beat the constant cries (and crying) of "Spase Marinez!! !HURR!!11!!".

Noisy_Marine wrote:Uh no. The older land raiders are smaller. And chaos doesn't get the newer ones, but they make up for it with possessed and dreadnoughts.

ROFL

..And with that, Noisy_Marine wins the thread!

Eric

Tribune wrote:I'm not in love with the new rumours but I think CSM are not doing so bad. And yes, I play them.

CSM features two impressive features:

1. A wide range of great troops choices (many fearless)
2. A definite design ethos to make AP3 the new black - look at how many more ways to access AP3 were granted in this list.

And before you cry out at such sacrilegious endorsement, I am not emotionally crippled by the removal of Traitor Legions and their almost entirely broken rules.

Back on thread, biggest annoyances with SM rumours so far are

1. The apparent options to allow deep strike assaults same turn
2. Librarians to be able to use two powers per turn
3. The general idiom of 'we never met a 5th edition rules limitation we didn't then break with Marines'. I'm only waiting for the rule that says Marines can consolidate into a new combat and we'll have the full set...

You forgot:
4. The Machine Spirit allows you to fire all vehicle weapons even if you moved.

The assaulting after deepstriking change seems like a rule dedicated to selling Drop Pods and Terminators.

p-man13 wrote:
You forgot:
4. The Machine Spirit allows you to fire all vehicle weapons even if you moved.

The assaulting after deepstriking change seems like a rule dedicated to selling Drop Pods and Terminators.

Machine Spirit allows you to fire one weapon more than you would normally be allowed.

The only unit that can assault after DS is the Jump Pack Vets (that I've read at least).

AgeOfEgos wrote:

p-man13 wrote:
You forgot:
4. The Machine Spirit allows you to fire all vehicle weapons even if you moved.

The assaulting after deepstriking change seems like a rule dedicated to selling Drop Pods and Terminators.

Machine Spirit allows you to fire one weapon more than you would normally be allowed.

The only unit that can assault after DS is the Jump Pack Vets (that I've read at least).

According to rumor, Machine Spirit will change in the new 'dex to allow all guns to fire so long as the raider didn't move more than 6". Of course, CSM Raiders don't even have Machine spirit any more...

Assault after DS with 1-3 units is pretty good.

At least my CSM will go back to beeing loyalists with horns and skulls. Probably cross over their chaos markings like the red corsairs used to do. Now they are CSM, Common Space Marines.

Antonin wrote:

AgeOfEgos wrote:

p-man13 wrote:
You forgot:
4. The Machine Spirit allows you to fire all vehicle weapons even if you moved.

The assaulting after deepstriking change seems like a rule dedicated to selling Drop Pods and Terminators.

Machine Spirit allows you to fire one weapon more than you would normally be allowed.

The only unit that can assault after DS is the Jump Pack Vets (that I've read at least).

According to rumor, Machine Spirit will change in the new 'dex to allow all guns to fire so long as the raider didn't move more than 6". Of course, CSM Raiders don't even have Machine spirit any more...

Assault after DS with 1-3 units is pretty good.

That was a rather old rumour. The current incarnation of machine spirit is (taken from B&C roundup);

"Machine Spirit now makes it more formidable (WS4 and may engage another target)."

Which fits with the latest DaemonHunter FAQ. I guess we'll know for sure when the dex arrives but most current rumours point to this. I don't play CSM so cannot comment too heavily on their Raiders but if memory serves they are cheaper and also have DP available.

With the scatter and the mishap table, assaulting after DS is not that good at all. 66% of the time you will scatter with the most common scatter being 7. That means if you scatter towards the enemy (which you deployed within 6' of to assault) you roll mishap. If you scatter away, you lose chance to assault and get shot. Very risky for a group of vets that cost 25-30 pts a pop.

Tribune wrote:
3. The general idiom of 'we never met a 5th edition rules limitation we didn't then break with Marines'. I'm only waiting for the rule that says Marines can consolidate into a new combat and we'll have the full set...

All other things aside, this is what irks me about these rumors. That they first introduce the new rules with new limitations, and then give Marines the ability to ignore them. Maybe I'll feel better about it if IG gets to do something similar.

did anyone notice on the ultramarines sicuras (sp?)
model you get a plumed head and the regular head.
hopefully they do a bits pack of these. would make it a lot easier to do some prehersey marines like the cover of false gods book.
must admit the sculpts making spending money of this stuff way to easy

So, the design philosophy swings back to "bling bling". How long do you think it'll last? I bet it goes back to "streamlined" in time for Dark Eldar.

DP is not very useful on a vehicle with lascannons, which require BS to shoot. I'ld rather have the ability to fire two lascannons on the move with BS 4 each.

Anyone know how many Vanguard vets an army can have? If it's 0-1, then they may not be too bad.

on scattering, I don't think that is as bad as you suggest. 1/3 of the time they go where you need them to; if they deviate over the enemy they may still be able to land (especially if they are a small squad, which is appropriate given the points; if they are on the mishap table, and are placed by the other player, that play has fairly limited options on where to place them; they cannot be placed anywhere within 6" of any enemy troops, but if they are placed too far away they will survive to move and charge the next turn.

How about the Shrike combo? DS, then fleet, then charge. Does that work still?

Quick question that sort of goes along with the direction the thread has headed. Has there been any word on whether or not Lysander will be keeping his Teleport Assault rule in the new book? I've always been a big fan of large numbers of Terminators, even had an Invictus led army back in 3rd, and I'm curious to see if a new variation of the Lysander wing is going to be an option in larger games.

Antonin wrote:DP is not very useful on a vehicle with lascannons, which require BS to shoot. I'ld rather have the ability to fire two lascannons on the move with BS 4 each.

Anyone know how many Vanguard vets an army can have? If it's 0-1, then they may not be too bad.

on scattering, I don't think that is as bad as you suggest. 1/3 of the time they go where you need them to; if they deviate over the enemy they may still be able to land (especially if they are a small squad, which is appropriate given the points; if they are on the mishap table, and are placed by the other player, that play has fairly limited options on where to place them; they cannot be placed anywhere within 6" of any enemy troops, but if they are placed too far away they will survive to move and charge the next turn.

How about the Shrike combo? DS, then fleet, then charge. Does that work still?

Well, lets compare the Chaos Raider to the rumoured Loyalist version;

Chaos Raider 240 pts w/ DP
Can always move 6' and shoot 1 Las Cannon at BS 3 but it is twin-linked
Can always choose not to move and shoot 2 Las Cannons at BS 3 but it is twin-linked

Loyalist 265 pts w/ EA
Can move 6' and shoot 2 Las Cannons at BS4
Can choose not to move and shoot 2 Las Cannons at BS 4
If it is stunned/shaken, can only move

As of right now, I would rather have the Chaos Raider. 25 pts cheaper...and usually my opponents shoot my Raider until they get a result (Which any result negates its next turn)... then they ignore it (Unless it's carrying goodies).

As to the DS, I think it's incredibly risky. I'm not sure I understand what you are saying about the mishap table, when you scatter on the enemy he has no limits on where he can place them! He can put them anywhere on the table, including difficult terrain...without scatter. As an example, he can place them 8 inches in front of his Devs then shoot them to hell next turn. My group has a pretty fair consensus of the mishap chart; 66% of the time that unit is dead.

With the new vehicle rules, I believe you'll see the assault vets with LCs, without JPs.... loaded up in a Crusader. Perhaps w/ Shrike!

With DP the Chaos Land Raider is ignoring shaken/stunned results too. And those BS4 lascannon shots are all also twin-linked.

All talk about DS risks needs to be qualified with the fact that SM will have the mishap-avoiding Drop Pod and also the 'can't scatter' Scout locater beacon available.

With DS - yes, your opponent gets to place them anywhere, but in practical terms, what does that mean?
1. Can't place them within 6" of any of his troops.
2. If you are playing Shrike, can't place them anywhere within 12" of any of his troops.
3. if he places them within 6" of terrain, you might (depending on the run roll) then run them to either be in cover or behind cover from those devs you spoke of.
4. Place them so far into your backfield that they are not close to his troops. Probably not getting shot by his stuff, in that case (especially with run).

this assumes he gets to place them - the other possibilities are that they are lost (which I grant is bad) or that they may simply come in the next turn instead.

Overall, the odds seem fine, even with 25-30 point models.

For Raiders - I think the ability to move and thereby "clear" a shot past cover is worth at least 25 points. I see your point, though.

For the math: BS3 twinlinked = 75% hit chance. BS 4 twinlinked = ~87% hit chance

Tribune wrote:All talk about DS risks needs to be qualified with the fact that SM will have the mishap-avoiding Drop Pod and also the 'can't scatter' Scout locater beacon available.

Right, that also. Good point.

I just fear those vets will be a "must-have" unit - I prefer more diversity.

Antonin wrote:With DS - yes, your opponent gets to place them anywhere, but in practical terms, what does that mean?
1. Can't place them within 6" of any of his troops.
2. If you are playing Shrike, can't place them anywhere within 12" of any of his troops.
3. if he places them within 6" of terrain, you might (depending on the run roll) then run them to either be in cover or behind cover from those devs you spoke of.
4. Place them so far into your backfield that they are not close to his troops. Probably not getting shot by his stuff, in that case (especially with run).

this assumes he gets to place them - the other possibilities are that they are lost (which I grant is bad) or that they may simply come in the next turn instead.

Overall, the odds seem fine, even with 25-30 point models.

For Raiders - I think the ability to move and thereby "clear" a shot past cover is worth at least 25 points. I see your point, though.

For the math: BS3 twinlinked = 75% hit chance. BS 4 twinlinked = ~87% hit chance

Ahh, I understand where you coming from now, my bad. In my experience though, I would argue that placing them in a firing lane (while keeping 6' away from you and terrain) is not that difficult when you don't scatter. I consider this not unlike the 'dead' result, except making my opponent at least roll dice to do it . 30 Points a model is pretty expensive to me too, given the inherent risk. Now, you mentioned Shrike...yes they would be nasty with Shrike but not with DS...but inflitrate (which he gives to one unit he's with). Flanking, fleeting, jump pack vets with LCs are a much better bet than DS IMO. I can understand where you are coming from though.

As to the Raider, I don't know...25 points less....only 12% less chance to hit. In addition, all it takes is one stun to make that Loyalist go from 87% chance to hit...to 0. Maybe I'm just unlucky with my Raiders getting stunned so often that I rate the ability to ignore both so high!

derek wrote:Quick question that sort of goes along with the direction the thread has headed. Has there been any word on whether or not Lysander will be keeping his Teleport Assault rule in the new book? I've always been a big fan of large numbers of Terminators, even had an Invictus led army back in 3rd, and I'm curious to see if a new variation of the Lysander wing is going to be an option in larger games.

Doubtful. No word on that ability. It doesnt matter. Termie command squads are gone, so the max amount of termies you can now have is three squads.

Tribune wrote:All talk about DS risks needs to be qualified with the fact that SM will have the mishap-avoiding Drop Pod and also the 'can't scatter' Scout locater beacon available.

Well, we're discussing assault from DS specifically....I don't know how the new pods will work (and I've seen nothing on allowing assaults from pods).

The locater beacon could be interesting...depends on how it's deployed though (when). If it's deployed after DS units arrive, it's not too bad. Just make sure you stay 6' away from the beacon (or move away after it's deployed). If you can deploy it BEFORE DS units arrive, for example turbo-boost your bikes..throw beacon down...then DS vets....then assault

Well, yeah that would be pretty damn good

Hellfury wrote:

derek wrote:Quick question that sort of goes along with the direction the thread has headed. Has there been any word on whether or not Lysander will be keeping his Teleport Assault rule in the new book? I've always been a big fan of large numbers of Terminators, even had an Invictus led army back in 3rd, and I'm curious to see if a new variation of the Lysander wing is going to be an option in larger games.

Doubtful. No word on that ability. It doesnt matter. Termie command squads are gone, so the max amount of termies you can now have is three squads.

Yeah...I assumed Lysander would give the option to trade one term unit--> troop. He's still pretty good though....if he throws a Term unit w/ SS in terrain, the entire unit will have 2++ saves!