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Valhallan42nd wrote:

Astalado wrote:Hey Guys!
(snip)

One assault squad will no longer kill a gunline. If you're facing one infiltrating fleeting jumping squad, throw a sacrifice squad up there. They can't consolidate into another squad. So, gun them down in your turn.

Since they jump, I hope they'll ignore the sacrifice squad and charge something worthwhile.
And then the deepstriking fleeting vets? Another sacrifice squad? You can't surround your army with sacrifice squads.

I think the best way to run the vets or the assault squads is in very small numbers, so they do not win by a lot - that way they will still be in combat at the end of their turn. Or have them charge fearless units.

Valhallan - good point, but it isn't just one unit.

Antonin, I agree one assault squad I can deal with.. The thing is this. Now marines can get many units into assault by turn two. Not just one.

Ravens Guard: Possible 4 maybe 5 squads into assault in turn two

or even worse Dreadnaughts with Fleet!!!


1 Shrieks Squad
2-4 - Assault squads with Fleet
5. Elite choice with all power weapons from drop pod

Remeber three marines can kill a tau fire warrior squad
also they are getting 2 attack base per marine, due to the close combat weapon and bolt pistol rule.

Normal Marines:

1-3 squads with drop pods get into assault

I not saying the one squad. I am scared of 3 to five squads in a gunline in turn one or two.

Valhallan42nd wrote:I've actually started a marine army that has 4 pc's in a dev squad, just for giggles. Here's hoping it works out for me.

Oh, they'll do just fine. Don't worry about that.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Valhallan42nd wrote:I've actually started a marine army that has 4 pc's in a dev squad, just for giggles. Here's hoping it works out for me.

Oh, they'll do just fine. Don't worry about that.

The laughs I used to receive when I threw down my devs have turned to groans

AgeOfEgos wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Valhallan42nd wrote:I've actually started a marine army that has 4 pc's in a dev squad, just for giggles. Here's hoping it works out for me.

Oh, they'll do just fine. Don't worry about that.

The laughs I used to receive when I threw down my devs have turned to groans

Yup.

I'm just sad that I followed through on this thought: "There's just no way I'm *ever* going to field a second full unit of Plasma Cannon Devastators, so I should go ahead and sell these extra Plasma Cannon dudes..."

Astalado wrote:Antonin, I agree one assault squad I can deal with.. The thing is this. Now marines can get many units into assault by turn two. Not just one.

Ravens Guard: Possible 4 maybe 5 squads into assault in turn two

or even worse Dreadnaughts with Fleet!!!


1 Shrieks Squad
2-4 - Assault squads with Fleet
5. Elite choice with all power weapons from drop pod

Remeber three marines can kill a tau fire warrior squad
also they are getting 2 attack base per marine, due to the close combat weapon and bolt pistol rule.

Normal Marines:

1-3 squads with drop pods get into assault

I not saying the one squad. I am scared of 3 to five squads in a gunline in turn one or two.

Really?

A Tau Gunline army isn't going to be able to concentrate fire and take out some of the 4 or 5 squads approaching? And if not eliminate them, severely limit their effectiveness?

Really?

The new marine dex strikes so much fear into little Tau hearts,the bluegrays just dying when looking at ASM or droppods.

Maybe you love if the rumored psipower of "gate of infinity" comes true.Deepstriking libby plus squad with 24" range and if he leads
vets with "heroic intervention" they can deepstrike and assault every turn.

But i don't think Shrike has a jumppack-command squad in the new dex.
Vanguard with jumppack seems to be Fast assault,so max 3 ASM (except of BA).

Alpharius wrote:Really?

A Tau Gunline army isn't going to be able to concentrate fire and take out some of the 4 or 5 squads approaching? And if not eliminate them, severely limit their effectiveness?

Really?

There's no Tau gunline in existence that can kill 35 MEQ assault troops from 24" away in one turn. 3 assault squads and an assault retinue are going to cost a hefty 1000-ish points, but they only need to deliver 500-ish points into assault range before they kill everything. No consolidation certainly helps the gunline, but against such mobile troops it's quite likely that multiple squads will be assaulted and rolled up. It's all well and good to say that you can deploy speedbump units and make sure your guys are all 6 or 7 inches apart, but when you back up to rear table edge to maximize your deployment distance and take 20" off of each flank to protect yourself from the Outflank maneuver, you're looking at a "safety zone" that is absolutely tiny. They'll be packed in like sardines. You'll have one great shooting gallery turn, and then all of your guys will die.

Or you can deploy piecemeal and be taken apart piecemeal. Shrike won't care much.

sourclams wrote:

Alpharius wrote:Really?

A Tau Gunline army isn't going to be able to concentrate fire and take out some of the 4 or 5 squads approaching? And if not eliminate them, severely limit their effectiveness?

Really?

There's no Tau gunline in existence that can kill 35 MEQ assault troops from 24" away in one turn. 3 assault squads and an assault retinue are going to cost a hefty 1000-ish points, but they only need to deliver 500-ish points into assault range before they kill everything. No consolidation certainly helps the gunline, but against such mobile troops it's quite likely that multiple squads will be assaulted and rolled up. It's all well and good to say that you can deploy speedbump units and make sure your guys are all 6 or 7 inches apart, but when you back up to rear table edge to maximize your deployment distance and take 20" off of each flank to protect yourself from the Outflank maneuver, you're looking at a "safety zone" that is absolutely tiny. They'll be packed in like sardines. You'll have one great shooting gallery turn, and then all of your guys will die.

Or you can deploy piecemeal and be taken apart piecemeal. Shrike won't care much.

I wasn't suggesting that the Tau force, always geared towards shooting, was going to ELIMINATE the 4 or 5 approaching assault squads.

But, with the no more consolidating into HTH, after being shot up on the way in, just how effective will the remainder be?

And with the Tau really be unable to deal with it?

I don't think it is even close to as bad as a lot of people think it will be.

I never thought I'd see the day when people thought the sky was falling due to a Marine release!

Ha!

I don't think the sky is falling. I don't play Tau, and since I've got Marines (who doesn't) the power armor superclads being better might bring them off the shelf for a little while.

But yes, gunline Tau are invariably going to be torn to shreds by fleeting jump pack troops. They'll get one turn of shooting, probably non-rapid fire, and then they'll have power armored line backers engaging two to three squads--and destroying those squads--at a time.

Now add in the reality of 5th ed: 2/3 of the games require your army to be mobile, capturing objectives across the board. 1/3 of your games will require your troops to kill your opponent's more efficiently than theirs can yours.

Shrike + Retinue + 3 Assault Squads = 5 kill points' worth of assault marines.

Crisis Commander + Retinue + 6 squads of Fire Warriors = 8 kill points and they're still going to need to flush out their list with more stuff which will provide more kill points and probably reduce your effectiveness overall (Tau in devilfish versus 10 marines packing kraks = dead fish, dead tau, 2 KPs).

Can 35 assault marines kill off 6 kill points' worth of Tau before being gutted to the point of non-effectiveness? Yeah, yeah they can.

Again, I'm not saying that Marines are the new uber (although they're going to be a lot better), but there are going to be some matchups where, if you're a betting man, you can safely let your mortgage ride because the statistics are just so weighted to one side.

I guess we'll see!

It might be 'bad' for a bit, but then everyone will probably realize that Horde Orks are still the way to go!

Has anyone been able to get a good look at the codex yet? Has there been any point changes to anything?

If 5 KP of SM can kill 6 KP of Tau in HtH (where Tau suck), I don't see the problem.

To me, there is one distressing fact of this whole thread.

From the first image:

"October 2008 is Space Marines month."


WTF? The Imperium invaded Orktober!
Is NOTHING sacred?

i feel your pain

also this could be space marines down fall their getting a lot of close combat units every1 knows orks
and nids are da best at CC

JohnHwangDD wrote:If 5 KP of SM can kill 6 KP of Tau in HtH (where Tau suck), I don't see the problem.

There is that, too...

I played 2,000 points of BA vs. 2,000 points of Tau recently. I have to tell you.... I got shot off the board. Every. Single. Model. The d6 run is all fine and dandy, but be sure not to roll one's and two's for your entire army every turn. The only thing that hit his lines in any decent numbers was the DC, and they killed two whole FW units before he was able to bring two more and a unit of crisis suits to bear. ouch.

Wow.........

My Raven Guard just got really good. Astaldo is right about Tau dieing to three fleeting marine assault squads and Kayvann Shrike himself. I think overall, the Tau are just dead in 5th Ed. against marines. The only feasible way that I can see to defend the gunlines is hammerheads firing railgun submunitions.

As for the rumoured new rules, thank god Shrike has an invulnerable save! He was good before, but now he is amazing! Does anyone know what is going to happen to Shrike's Wing? I actually went out and modeled 9 assault marines with lightening claws to use as his wing. Are the retinues gone?

@anduril_93:

Sadly "shrikes wing" IIRC gone.

The rumors until now had also pairs of Lightning Claws only for SC or IC,so maybe troopers or vetsargents may not take them.

Anyway,some pics of "shrikes wing" ?

I think Retinues are pretty much a thing of the past, in general. Perhaps this is why the Elites options feel suitably beefed up, to offset/compensate?

Compensate by delivering a honor guard to a chapter master may be
but 3 of them for papa smurf? :S

RedSarge wrote:Does GW have an overstock on Chaplain Cassius models?
Suddenly the Chaplain no one ever used because of his cost in comparison to a vanilla Chaplain, which is cheaper, but lacking the Tyr.Vet upgrade. Is the super awesome toughness 6 marine?!!

Did I miss something? Something big?

Wait, WHAT??? Did I just read that right? Chaplain Cassius is now tougher than Typhus Herald of Nurgle and Host of f#%ing the Destroyer Hive?!?! I'm sorry that is just made of pure slow.

Cassius just got elevated to overall "master of sanctity" and a T6,FNP and maybe a chaplains invul save.Plus new fluff.
Need more? To be a smurf,or not to be,thats the question if you want new toys.

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:Wait, WHAT??? Did I just read that right? Chaplain Cassius is now tougher than Typhus Herald of Nurgle and Host of f#%ing the Destroyer Hive?!?! I'm sorry that is just made of pure slow.

And Tiggy's better than Ahriman, Calgar is better than Abaddon, and everyone else is still better than Lucius.

Damn it's good to be Loyalist!

BYE

1hadhq wrote:Cassius just got elevated to overall "master of sanctity" and a T6,FNP and maybe a chaplains invul save.Plus new fluff.

So what's the new fluff? He get double Marks of Nurgle or something?

So this confirms that the Salamaders character won't be out with the initial release. :(

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

1hadhq wrote:Cassius just got elevated to overall "master of sanctity" and a T6,FNP and maybe a chaplains invul save.Plus new fluff.

So what's the new fluff? He get double Marks of Nurgle or something?

He's just really, really scarred and filled with faith.

sourclams wrote:

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

1hadhq wrote:Cassius just got elevated to overall "master of sanctity" and a T6,FNP and maybe a chaplains invul save.Plus new fluff.

So what's the new fluff? He get double Marks of Nurgle or something?

He's just really, really scarred and filled with faith.

Oh, well that makes sense. If you're really, really scarred and filled with daemonic power then you get +1T. If you're really, really scarred and filled with faith you get +2T. Of course.

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
Oh, well that makes sense. If you're really, really scarred and filled with daemonic power then you get +1T. If you're really, really scarred and filled with faith you get +2T. Of course.

I'm not one to bitch, but I have to agree with this one. No way in hell that dude should be as tough as an MC. Tougher than some MC's even. You're on a 25mm base, your max toughness should be 5. Hella, hella stupid. He better be 4(6) as well.

Antonin wrote:

Valhallan42nd wrote:

Astalado wrote:Hey Guys!
(snip)

One assault squad will no longer kill a gunline. If you're facing one infiltrating fleeting jumping squad, throw a sacrifice squad up there. They can't consolidate into another squad. So, gun them down in your turn.

Since they jump, I hope they'll ignore the sacrifice squad and charge something worthwhile.
And then the deepstriking fleeting vets? Another sacrifice squad? You can't surround your army with sacrifice squads.

I think the best way to run the vets or the assault squads is in very small numbers, so they do not win by a lot - that way they will still be in combat at the end of their turn. Or have them charge fearless units.

Valhallan - good point, but it isn't just one unit.

Is there any unit that Tau can take in numbers greater than 10? Perhaps surrounding your fireunits with a larger, more expendable squad so that the only unit that can be charged is your literal meatshield.

-x--x--x--x--x--x
x oooooooooo x
-x DEVIL x-
FISHIE
FISH

Drake_Marcus wrote:So this confirms that the Salamaders character won't be out with the initial release. :(

Salamanders don't matter to GW, hasn't the past 4 years of being told that you're a green smurf taught you that?