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What about:


1 HQ inquisitor w/psychic hood + 3 mystics w/Land Raider Transport
1 Kor'Sarro Khan (outflanking transports)

1 Elite inquisitor w/ 2 mystics and Land Raider Transport
5x Assault Terminators w/ TH/SH + Land Raider Crusader Transport

3x (5 man) Scout Squads w/sniper Rifles and Camo Cloaks

3 Vindicators


Sit your scouts in cover on objects, (go to ground for 2+ cover save) While your armored company runs wild.

This can all be done for 1850 pts, 1750 if you drop a unit of scouts.

You only get the outflank if you have combat tactics. So I mean 1 Landraider would be able to outflank.

Nasty, massed Vindies and Land Raider combos can only hurt. Who gets hurt depends on the number of high S weapons the opponent manages to field.

This army would do well if you alternate it with something very different, such as a podding list. Then even the hardened metagamers will find it hard to tailor their heavy weapons to the role of killing you.

I think a Good Vindicator Spam would look something like

Captain on Bike

Redeemer+ Term Assault

Redeemer + Term

Iron Clad

Troops
Bikes

Fast Attack
Attack Bikes

Vindicator Vindicator Vindicator

I guess my question is, if you like this list why are you running marines???

CSMs do vindies so much better. For one they can be possessed, so get to shoot more, and they have the lash that pulls units out of cover, and clumps guys together.

Plus the troopers are just as good at shooting but better at hth, and can take lesser daemons.

I think 3 vindies and a rhino rush is great, but it's not the stand out strength of the new SM codex.

I'm with Pdeflorio 100%. Marines have much better options for taking down MEQ than Vindicator spam, and against non-MEQ lists will have big problems with cover saves.

I'd say vindi's are a great buy, at least in certain lists. I use at least 2 in 1500p lists. 3, generally, in higher point lists. They are great in pairs or trios, and even better in major mech lists where the opponents AT is already stretched pretty thin.

Soup: What sort of armies do you typically play against?

I think that SM can do vindicator spam better than CSM solely because they can take DH as allies, so that they get Land Raiders to protect the weak side armor of vindicators.

A statement, followed by a question, separated by a colon: a good idea?

I think something like this would be good

Khan w/ 160
Chaplain 100


Iron Clad w/ Drop Death H. Flamer 200

Iron Clad w/ Drop Death H. Flamer 200

5 Man Assault Term w/ Lighting claw 200

Redeemer w/ H. Armour, Multi 265

Troops

Ten Man tact w/ Melta droppod w/ Death wind P.F., 245

Ten Man Tact w/ Melta, Rhino, P.F. 245

Ten Man Scout w/ Shotguns 135


H.

Vindicator w/ Siege 125

Vindicator w/ Siege 125

Vindicator w/ Siege 125

Wow, I'm shocked people are advising vindicator spam?

Vindicators are complete junk, in chaos and imperial armies.

(1) ARMOR 11 SIDES, it's a complete give away*
(2) Pathetic Range
(3) Arrow die to hit, you will need 3 tanks to get a single hit, ~350 pts for 1 St10 Barrage a Turn?
(4) NOT AP 1
(5) Assault vulnerable (and has to get close to shoot)
(6) Chaos demonic possession reduces the BS making deviations abysmally bad
(7) No Indirect
(8) Cover is everywhere now
(9) Basic predator with TWINLAS is CHEAPER! ?
(10) Vehicle wall does not work how people are suggesting.**
(11) Deepstrikers can run out of their DS formation cluster eliminating THE BEST single target for one of these

* Most people play sides completely wrong... Check the core book, you draw the side arcs through the vehicles corners, so rhino style vehicles have side arcs that are monstrously huge at almost 120 degrees, closing ranges with a 24 inch gun tank MUST expose the A 11 sides.

**Also making a wall (side by side ranks) to defend the squishy sides doesn't work, the arc is determined from the firers position, NOT actual LOS so it doesn't matter...

Timmah wrote:I think that SM can do vindicator spam better than CSM solely because they can take DH as allies, so that they get Land Raiders to protect the weak side armor of vindicators.

Check the rulebook page 60.

Basic predators and whirlwinds are both better HS choices. (And are cheaper)

EDIT: Quote ad

Augustus, some of your points are so blatantly ridiculous that it leaves me wondering if you even play this game, nevermind 5th edition.

- 30" effective range is not pathetic, especially now that taking the middle of the field is much more important in 5th edition.

- The new blast rules make it much EASIER to score hits on enemies, not harder. You don't need 3 tanks to average an effective hit on either a unit or another vehicle.

- No, not AP 1, but S10 with 2D6 picking the highest goes a long way.

- Assault-vulnerable, but what vehicle isn't aside from a Land Raider?

- Why would you want indirect fire on a 24" gun?

- Reducing BS by 1 has an extremely small effect on scatter reduction--how does this make scatters abysmally bad? And how is this not worth being able to ignore stunned/shaken results?

- Basic Predator is cheaper, and serves a completely different role on the battlefield. A Rhino is cheaper too, and is equally irrelevant to whether or not Vindicators are worth it.


That's not to say that Vindicators don't have their problems/weaknesses, but your previous statements are so far off base that they offer little if anything to the discussion.

Also, while firing is done drawn through the arc of fire (ie if you're shooting from the general side of the tank, you get side armor), if there's no LOS you get a nice 3+ cover save. Not perfect, but in some cases better than the +2 armor.

Exaclty, as Tzeentchling said. Even if they maneuver so they get side armor. The Vindicators are still getting a 3+ or 4+ cover save.

Actually direct hits with a Vindi would be

1/3 + 1/9

so It will hit 4/9ths of the time.
and it will scatter 3 inches or less over 70% of the time.

Those are pretty good odds if you ask me.


By the way. The Vindicators are not your tank killers. So comparing them to a Predator is redic. Your Land Raiders should do decently well tank hunting. And as long as your targets aren't in area terrain you can always fire as an ordinance barrage to negate cover.

Danny Internets wrote:Augustus, some of your points are so blatantly ridiculous that it leaves me wondering if you even play this game, nevermind 5th edition.
...
That's not to say that Vindicators don't have their problems/weaknesses, but your previous statements are so far off base that they offer little if anything to the discussion.

Danny, your opening and closing comments are such shameless flames I wonder if your post is even worth responding to? OK, I'll bite I guess...
I suggest you leave out the personal attacks and just make your points next time.

I had 3 vindicators in a Chaos army, my experience comes from playing many games with them.

First off you didnt even address most of my points, I suppose I should asume you couldnt dispute them. In fact you agreed with some of my points in the same section in which you berated me?

What is really ridiculous is advocating the Chaos Landraider 3 vindicator wall, as a good tactic for cover saves... ?

Chaos Landraiders suck too, especially if they are not delivering CC troops and acting as vindicator shields? Your kidding you guys right? Chaos Land raiders dont have the machine spirit, so if they move up to act as shields for 3 vindicators then they are shooting one lascannon and not doing their job of transporting at all? For 250 points each! 500 points of vindicator shield...

Also lets talk points, so 3 chaos vindicators, and 2 landraiders is what, 250x2 + 130x3 = 890 points, almost 2/3 of an entire army. For 2 lascannons and 1.5 blasts at 12 inches. What kind of plan is that?

***

Danny Internets wrote:- 30" effective range is not pathetic, especially now that taking the middle of the field is much more important in 5th edition..

It is pathetic because it makes the tanks have to advance forward, to where they are weaker because of assault vulnerability (which you actually agreed on) and they expose their sides, which are armor 11. Its logic that follows. Rhino body tanks with greater range do not have this problem.

Danny Internets wrote:- The new blast rules make it much EASIER to score hits on enemies, not harder. You don't need 3 tanks to average an effective hit on either a unit or another vehicle..

Yea you do, hit dice are hits on 2 sides, so essentially these tanks hit on 5s. Not only that but spreading out your sqauds at 2 inches ensures the BEST hit a blast can get is 3 models, a simple lascannon armed squad will always beat a vindicator.

Danny Internets wrote:- No, not AP 1, but S10 with 2D6 picking the highest goes a long way..

Unless you are relying on a hit dice... again. The predator twinlas is much more reliable and cheaper, this is just a point where you are entirely wrong. If the blast was AP 1, maybe...

Danny Internets wrote:- Assault-vulnerable, but what vehicle isn't aside from a Land Raider?.

Yes, assault vulnerable, and with a single short range weapon, which is why this tank is worse off than most, which are all generally worse off.

Danny Internets wrote:- Why would you want indirect fire on a 24" gun?.

Because it's a barrage weapon, it ought to have it for the points.

Danny Internets wrote:- Reducing BS by 1 has an extremely small effect on scatter reduction--how does this make scatters abysmally bad? And how is this not worth being able to ignore stunned/shaken results?.

Because average misses on the scatter die are usually template flips, which are generally complete misses when your opponent has set up at all inteligently or they put the center hole off of a vehicle target at which point the shot is a complete miss.

Danny Internets wrote:- Basic Predator is cheaper, and serves a completely different role on the battlefield. A Rhino is cheaper too, and is equally irrelevant to whether or not Vindicators are worth it.

Maybe, what's the purpose? You implied (the same purpose) vehicle killing when you wrote 2D6(best)+10, which the twin las pred is actually better?

How many vindicators do you have, what has your experience been? In mine, they look good on paper and ended up getting destroyed because of the A11 (they are like rhinos) in practice, would have rather had a defiler (better in CC), a las pred (better at AT and cheaper).

Your ball.

Reading comprehension would benefit you, August. I called your points ridiculous, not you yourself. That's hardly a personal attack so I suggest you get over it.

Furthermore, I said some of your points were inane. Bolded for extra emphasis because you seem to have missed it both at first glance and when you quoted me. You also make some good points which I allude to when admitting that Vindicators do have weaknesses.

Without going through the tedious process of quoting each individual sentence and responding in kind, I'll simply say this. Comparing units that serve completely different roles on the battlefield is the completely wrong way to go about assessing their value. Predators do not serve the same role as Vindicators. Whirlwinds also don't serve the same role as Vindicators against the vast majority of armies.

Furthermore, you seem not to understand the new blast rules and how they make blast weapons far superior in 5th edition than they were in 4th. I've been using 3 Vindicators in my Salamanders army for a long time now (and have won a couple of tournaments with them)--they don't have ANY trouble hitting their targets now. Due to the reduction of scatter by 4" they rarely miss completely. Perhaps you should get a few more games under your belt before trying to convince people that doing consistent damage with blast weapons is hard. If you haven't noticed, there are a few insanely hard lists out there that specifically exploit the new awesomesauce that is the blast template (Dark Eldar disintegrator spam, Tyranid deathspitter spam, etc.).

sourclams wrote:Soup: What sort of armies do you typically play against?

I have an insanely good feeling you will somehow get an insult out of this, and will somehow say that whoever I play is an idiot, so I am an idiot, ect. Point being, I think I see where this is going, and I'd rather it not go there.

If you are being serious, it's a long list. DO you actually want it? It is pretty much every decent to great build for every army. I'd rather not write half a novel stating every single one.

I should probably explain my army. Black Templar LRC Mech. With two LRC's+IC/Squads and two vindi's in 1500p, it is fairing very well. The majority of armies have fallen out of major AT/Anti-Elite firepower, which is needed to stop my list. Since I play an extreme, I fair very well against balanced lists and lists made more for anti-horde of some degree. I also do very well AGAINST horde, as vindi's and LRC's can fair just as well, if not better, against those as they do against more general or elite forces.

That and LRC's can effectively shield Vindi's until they can get a shot off and the LRC's are in the enemies face, which will lessen their ability to pop anything even more, since they can lose 2-4 squads in the course of a single turn.

I think vindispam is Great for BT's

they get the old rule for Machine spirit, which basically allows them to ignore shaken and stunned for the purposes of fireing the big cannon, which means that they are "turned off" alot less.

I like this list for LR/Vindi BT spam

HQ: Castellan (1#, 65 Pts)
1 Castellan @ 65 Pts
Crusader Seals; Uphold The Honour Of The Emperor
1 Crusader Seals @ [0] Pts

: Emperor's Champion (1#, 100 Pts)
1 Emperor's Champion @ 100 Pts
Frag Grenades; Bolt Pistol; The Black Sword; Crusader Seals; Uphold The Honour Of The Emperor
1 The Black Sword @ [0] Pts
1 Armor of Faith @ [0] Pts
1 Crusader Seals @ [0] Pts

Troops: Crusader Squad (6#, 370 Pts)
5 Crusader Squad @ 370 Pts
Bolt Pistol (x5); Close Combat Weapon (x5); Uphold The Honour Of The Emperor
1 Land Raider Crusader @ [290] Pts
Multi-Melta; Twin Linked Assault Cannon; Hurricane Bolters (x2); Extra Armor; Power of the Machine Spirit
1 Blessed Hull @ [25] Pts

Troops: Crusader Squad (6#, 370 Pts)
5 Crusader Squad @ 370 Pts
Bolt Pistol (x5); Close Combat Weapon (x5); Uphold The Honour Of The Emperor
1 Land Raider Crusader @ [290] Pts
Multi-Melta; Twin Linked Assault Cannon; Hurricane Bolters (x2); Extra Armor; Power of the Machine Spirit
1 Blessed Hull @ [25] Pts

Troops: Crusader Squad (6#, 370 Pts)
5 Crusader Squad @ 370 Pts
Bolt Pistol (x5); Close Combat Weapon (x5); Uphold The Honour Of The Emperor
1 Land Raider Crusader @ [290] Pts
Multi-Melta; Twin Linked Assault Cannon; Hurricane Bolters (x2); Extra Armor; Power of the Machine Spirit
1 Blessed Hull @ [25] Pts

Heavy Support: Vindicator (1#, 155 Pts)
1 Vindicator @ 155 Pts
Demolisher Cannon; Storm Bolter; Power of the Machine Spirit

Heavy Support: Vindicator (1#, 155 Pts)
1 Vindicator @ 155 Pts
Demolisher Cannon; Storm Bolter; Power of the Machine Spirit

Heavy Support: Vindicator (1#, 155 Pts)
1 Vindicator @ 155 Pts
Demolisher Cannon; Storm Bolter; Power of the Machine Spirit

Total Roster Cost: 1740

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i think it works gret, as most thing, all the way up to deamon princes are insta ded if they fail there cover save. All told, i think the vindicators are great and the apoc formation is great.

Daemon Princes have Eternal Warrior, and cannot suffer from Instant Death.

Nurglitch wrote:Daemon Princes have Eternal Warrior, and cannot suffer from Instant Death.

Yes...but they die a little inside every time they fail a cover save.

would a dark angels army benifit from a couple of vindi's?
They seem to share the old rules on ''crew shaken'' like the BT's