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Augustus wrote:...Fireprisms (and generally all Eldar tanks) are JUNK:...ACCURACY: ...

GeneralX wrote:1) Fire prisms hit Dead on or within 1 inch 63% of the time 2) Two fire prisms can link firing a s10 ap1 shot or a large blast s6 ap3 shot which rerolls the to hit dice for that one shot making it hit 87% of the time Dead on or within 1 inch. 3) Eldrad can guide up to two fire prisms a turn making them re-roll they're to hit as well. If you chose to you could fire 2 shots that hit 87%, making them easily the most accurate Eldar vehicles.

Plus with no upgrades 3 of them is 345 pts, which is exactly how they should be run, unless you upgrade a single one with holofields.

Not sure where you get your math, 63% of the time? If true, thats still worse than on a 3+ like the old days. Realisticly, there are 2 hits on an arrow die, and they equate to a 5+ to hit, with average deviation being 2D6-4 or 3 inches, which is a template flip for a small template and essentially a complete miss from the original location. I admit, the template might land somewhere useful, but it is clearly less accurate than before. You are just wrong on point 1.

As for 2 and 3, linking and guide, yes you can, but this is the problem with Eldar and their advocates, it requires a large chain of "ifs" to look good on paper: if Eldrad helps, if you can chain another tank in for a reroll, if Eldrad passes the psychic check, and if he is still alive with nowhere to hide, and if he doesnt get nullified by a marine psycher, and if he is in range to the tank trying to board edge, and.... I don't know exaclty but for reference here, a Prism is what 115, so you need 2 of them to do nothing else for 1 chance at a ST10 AP1 shot with a rerolled arrow die? 230 points for that? For a 5/9 chance of hitting, with an average miss deviation of 3 inches....

It's just junk compared to like choices in other armies, and in practice it has to have this complex chain of events to be succesful which is hard.

Augustus wrote:MOBILITY ISSUES: Eldar tanks with low armor 12 are very vulnerable to everything as if they move fast enough to get a decent save, they dont shoot, effectively they stun themselves these days. If they slow down to fire they get penetrated with no save, if they skirt the board edges and corners of the board to avoid range they are vulnerable to assaulters outflanking...

GeneralX wrote:Well he either 1) sits back out of range OR if they have ranged 2) moves up with Eldrad fortuning 2 of his serpents giving them re-rollable 4+ saves. That makes them tougher than any other tank, and they can be right out in the open, then giving his other tanks cover saves. Plus you forget that anyone assaulting an eldar vehicle that moves 12 inches (still firing) will hit on 6s.

Once again, if, Eldrad is range of both tanks, and still alive, and passes the psychic checks and.... It's pretty easy to stop that at any point in the chain, and, all that for 200+115+115, for 430 points, just 1 or 2 shots that hit on 5s? You can't have the furotune and the guide too. It leaves them just as I said, either they go for the saves or they go for the hits, its not like the old days where they could do both, and thats with Eldrad in the perfect situation. Other army units work well on their own.

6s to hit REAR ARMOR? OK so you need 6 attacks to get a hit? Not a problem for most assault units. Also what about shooting outflankers? There are a lot of them too.

Augustus wrote:LOW ARMOR: AV12, is a sucker for even autocannon fire, Eldar tanks are easy to drop, ...

GeneralX wrote:Lol glancing on 5+ and penning on 6+ is not "a sucker for autocanon fire". Plus lascannons are s8 against serpents, so 4+ or 5/6+.

Sure it is, most AC fire comes in big units, how about for Lootas then... The point is A12 is vulnerable to every heavy weapon. For the force field, Serpents don't get holofields, the S8 thing doesnt even matter... They just explode.

Augustus wrote:(2) Dire Avengers are Junk

GeneralX wrote:...they shoot 18, so they can be out of range of most things, and they will kill most things that they shoot at. (you are forgetting Eldrad's Dooms).

Im noticing a pattern here, every unit is only good if Eldrad shows up to doom/guide/fortune them, seems like a pretty busy guy...

Point made.

*EDITS for quote block clean up

ender502 wrote:
Just so you know I didn't take your comments harshly. I felt much the same way when 4th destroyed my space wolves.
...
What do you think about a couple of spearlock bike squads to add AT power instead of the FD serpent?

ender502

Yup, Eldar are a beautiful army, I think you are in the right setting to have a good time (if not playing tourneys)! Good for you!

Speerlock bikes are still probably the best overall unit in the codex, I think that's a good idea! I might even drop 1 of the 3 fireprisms to get some more.

Plus the converions for those are always hot looking!

Augustus wrote:
Speerlock bikes are still probably the best overall unit in the codex, I think that's a good idea! I might even drop 1 of the 3 fireprisms to get some more.

Plus the converions for those are always hot looking!

Embolden or Destructor? Keep in mind I am looking more for an AT squad but will consider destructor simply because anything template is gold in 5th ed.

Also, what's your take on EML vs BL?

EML really helps pay the bills on thi slist.

ender502

Oh, both are good for different reasons,

Can you get the A14 with your prisms or the spearlocks? If so, go for the EMLs. I like to bring redundancy in a list though, I would probably go for the twin BLs as other posters have advised.

try this.... dropped the FD and a few from each squad of DA. I also made sur eto have an exarch with bladestorm on each of the DA squads...why? Cost versus # of shots favors bladestorm. 6 points per shot versus 5 (actually, 4.95 for the smaller and 4.7 for the larger). I've had to go with EML on the serpents because I can't afford to do otherwise. And it's back to 1750.

seer, stones, doom, guide 120
autarch, power weapon, fusion gun 90
10 x harlies, leader, seer, 5 x kiss 250
6 x da,ex, bladestorm 219
serpent, EML
8 x da, ex, bladestorm 243
serpent, EML
8 x da, ex, bladestorm 243
serpent, EML
3 x bikes, spearlock embolden 119
3 x bikes, spearlock embolden 119
3 x prisms 345

1748

You guys should start your own thread just to argue this.

My 2 cents on prisms, for 10 points less you chan have a 3 man squad of vanilla reapers. 6 heavy shots is, I think, a better return on your point investment. With 3 shadow weaver artillary pieces (90 pts) next to them you have anty-MEQ, TEQ, and horde, losing only 12" in range. Rember the table is usually only 48" across anyway....

DeathGryffin wrote:My 2 cents on prisms, for 10 points less you chan have a 3 man squad of vanilla reapers. 6 heavy shots is, I think, a better return on your point investment. With 3 shadow weaver artillary pieces (90 pts) next to them you have anty-MEQ, TEQ, and horde, losing only 12" in range. Rember the table is usually only 48" across anyway....

Doesn't go with the mech theme...Also, the table is 48" deep and 72 " long. There is a lot of space to fill in there.

Shadow weavers are bait and easy gimme points for pods... reapers are much the same. I really question whether static firepower is anything but a losing strategy for eldar. If I was doing a non-mech list it'd be something like 2 x 3 x warwalkers and a falcon. Firepower that can move... Walkers can throw out an insane amount of S6 fire while still moving.

ender502

Static firepower, based on shadow weavers, is a concept that seems like it is against the flow of the Eldar but is one of the better versions of Eldar out there.

Sadly, few seem willing to invest in it.

I experimented with a list with 9 shadow weavers in it for a while....

I figured it wouldnt stay around long in TLOS much les pod hell.

Mech Eldar works.

I will say I do question harlequins or banshees.

I truly think you could do fine with a stripped down Doom seer for the most part and lose the autarch.

You can use the points for EML or BL on the wave serpents and probably have enough points or close to it for another waveserpent with a squad of 5-6 Fire Dragons.

Fire dragons will do the job on marines, necrons, etc or will take out the vehicles you need to drop.

I think it is a tough dance but I do like the 152 DA squads. You time it right and 2 or 3 squads drop a blade storm on a flank of your opponent. The next turn it is mount up in the wave serpents again and time to set up for the next round.

32 S4 shots that should average 22 to 23 hits and still average about 16-18 wounds on marines and we should be averaging 5 to 6 dead out of one 10 man squad with just one DA unit. Drop two and we should be talking wipe the squad.
If we are talking hordes... well let's see 16-18 wounds guts most ork boyz units cause that will be 16-18 kills.

The tough discussion is on the serpents. EML, Bright Lance, Shuriken Cannon maybe Scatter Lasers. BL will make them preferred targets for opponent vehicles and that way your Fire Prisms are free to drop pie plates on hoards. Not a bad deal. EML's a little more flexible weapon system but not as effective if you are facing a lot of Landraiders and Lehman Russ Demolishers. Going to cannons might get you enough saved to field another unit.

ender502 wrote:Doesn't go with the mech theme...Also, the table is 48" deep and 72 " long. There is a lot of space to fill in there.

48" range translates to a fire zone 96" in diameter.....Fills alot of that table

ender502 wrote:Shadow weavers are bait and easy gimme points for pods... reapers are much the same. I really question whether static firepower is anything but a losing strategy for eldar. If I was doing a non-mech list it'd be something like 2 x 3 x warwalkers and a falcon. Firepower that can move... Walkers can throw out an insane amount of S6 fire while still moving.

Mobile firepower is good, but mobile firepower that moves like and is barely tougher than the infantry you are replacing seems silly. Besides, if a reaper squad and some platforms bring a drop pod in, how many do you think you are inviting with the line of walkers?

stelek wrote:Static firepower, based on shadow weavers, is a concept that seems like it is against the flow of the Eldar but is one of the better versions of Eldar out there.

An important part of my first army

DeathGryffin wrote:
Mobile firepower is good, but mobile firepower that moves like and is barely tougher than the infantry you are replacing seems silly. Besides, if a reaper squad and some platforms bring a drop pod in, how many do you think you are inviting with the line of walkers?

The numbers vs..s4 bs 4 of reapers works out to.... 66/100 hit, 44/100 wounded and 15/100 unsaved. Hmmm.. So about 7 shots to give you a dead reaper. Flamers without the hole "hitting" problem are especially nasty.

The same weapon vs a A10 walker equals 66/100 hit, and 11/100 glance. So..it would take 9 shots to glance. This doesn't consider the possible effects of having one or more of the walkers being obscured.

I'll put my money on the walkers vs. podded bolters. I am just not a fan of static firepower for eldar. Just doesn't feel right. Again, i'll make the best that I can out of this sow's ear.

ender502

ender502 wrote:I'll put my money on the walkers vs. podded bolters. I am just not a fan of static firepower for eldar. Just doesn't feel right. Again, i'll make the best that I can out of this sow's ear.

I have learned that most bets against pods are losing ones...
Pod lists I have seen/fought, are always geared to crack AV12-14 tanks on the first salvo. If 4 land raiders (or your 3 prisms) get slaged on turn 1, a half-dozen walkers have no chance. Admittedly, neither do reapers or artillary.

I respect your views and strategy, and am only offering advice that you asked for.

I offer this last thought:
Most of my games my opponent usually says "F***! where did those spiders come from!?" or "If only I landed THAT pod THERE..."

It is easy to defeat a single hypothetical unit in a senario when not dealing with its overall role within the army. If one pod lands next to the tank/reapers/whatever, that is still one pod that is not landing near the important/strong/scoring units of the force.....

Good night gents.

DeathGryffin wrote:

I offer this last thought:
Most of my games my opponent usually says "F***! where did those spiders come from!?" or "If only I landed THAT pod THERE..."

You'll get no argueing from me about spiders. I love them!!!! If this wasn't a mech list i'd be taking them. There is something glorious about that much s6 weaponry hopping about the board!!!

I think probably the strongest eldar lists are really a combined arms list. static, mobile shooty and hitty. The more elements the better!

ender502

Augustus: I'm not saying you literally don't play Eldar.

I just believe that Mech Eldar is still an effective army in 5th ed.

I don't think Dire Avengers are junk at all. Overpriced? Maybe. But certainly not unusable.

Fire Prisms are not antitank units. Period. You can use them as crappy lascannon platforms but it is just a waste. What some people are forgetting is that there are no more partials. Shoot them at a large block of infantry and they will do good damage.

Loota spam does wreck Mech Eldar though. No way around it.

Just a bit of Nostalgia for the studio audience:

Yes they were all mine and then some.

Someone had fun with an airbrush!

Yes, and fun with an army once also...

Augustus wrote:
Not sure where you get your math, 63% of the time? If true, thats still worse than on a 3+ like the old days.

Sorry its about 61% of the time within 1 or 2 inches. Scattering 1inch is always a hit in my book, and 2inches will hit against most tanks, or if your pie plating a squad of orks etc.

Augustus wrote:
Realisticly, there are 2 hits on an arrow die, and they equate to a 5+ to hit, with average deviation being 2D6-4 or 3 inches, which is a template flip for a small template and essentially a complete miss from the original location. I admit, the template might land somewhere useful, but it is clearly less accurate than before. You are just wrong on point 1.

to hit die = 33%, then (1+2+3+4+5)/36 (dead on or within 2 inches) = 42%, 33% + (.67 * 42%) = roughly 61%.

Augustus wrote:
As for 2 and 3, linking and guide, yes you can, but this is the problem with Eldar and their advocates, it requires a large chain of "ifs" to look good on paper: if Eldrad helps, if you can chain another tank in for a reroll, if Eldrad passes the psychic check, and if he is still alive with nowhere to hide, and if he doesnt get nullified by a marine psycher, and if he is in range to the tank trying to board edge, and.... I don't know exaclty but for reference here, a Prism is what 115, so you need 2 of them to do nothing else for 1 chance at a ST10 AP1 shot with a rerolled arrow die? 230 points for that? For a 5/9 chance of hitting, with an average miss deviation of 3 inches....

It's just junk compared to like choices in other armies, and in practice it has to have this complex chain of events to be succesful which is hard.

The ifs aren't hard at all. Linking has no problem unless multiple prisms are stunned or shaken, and guiding has similarily few problems as long as he is sitting back and firing away. Eldrad fails a psychic test 1/54 times he attempts one. (4 possible failures out of 216 possible rolls (perils not included)). Not unlikely. He will always be in range with 60 inches : / . A S10 hit AP 1 that hits 87% of the time at 60" is incredible. Prisms shooting s6 ap3 rerollable scatter templates are often even more useful.
Fire dragons are the bread and butter of eliminating enemy tanks.

Augustus wrote:
Once again, if, Eldrad is range of both tanks, and still alive, and passes the psychic checks and.... It's pretty easy to stop that at any point in the chain, and, all that for 200+115+115, for 430 points, just 1 or 2 shots that hit on 5s? You can't have the furotune and the guide too. It leaves them just as I said, either they go for the saves or they go for the hits, its not like the old days where they could do both, and thats with Eldrad in the perfect situation. Other army units work well on their own.

Your claim that 430 pts on 1 or 2 shots hitting on 5s is ridiculus. The utility of the prisms and eldrad go far beyond that in the army, and they can work effectively separately.

Augustus wrote:
6s to hit REAR ARMOR? OK so you need 6 attacks to get a hit? Not a problem for most assault units. Also what about shooting outflankers? There are a lot of them too.

Shooting outflankers are the same as shooting anything else... Out flankers destroying a fire prism is very unlikely. They have to be rolled in, then come on the right edge, then get a really good fleet (if they even have that), and thats if the prism is even within 18 nchs of a board edge, then its 6s to hit, and then they have to pen., then damage table. Lots o'rolling.

Augustus wrote:
Sure it is, most AC fire comes in big units, how about for Lootas then... The point is A12 is vulnerable to every heavy weapon. For the force field, Serpents don't get holofields, the S8 thing doesnt even matter... They just explode.

lootas shoot on average 20 shots hitting on a 5+, penning on a 6+, destroying on a 5+... So roughly 1 Penetrating hit, that if its 10 of them for 150 pts minimum, and thats if they are in range.

Augustus wrote:
Im noticing a pattern here, every unit is only good if Eldrad shows up to doom/guide/fortune them, seems like a pretty busy guy...

Well, when I've used eldrad he's never disappointed. Generally in my club he's viewed as an eldar player's easy way out of anything. I personally think he's far too good.

But basically that's what the eldar army is about. Our units without doom and fortune aren't fantastic, but its available to us, and its what makes eldar very nasty IMHO.


Where are you from I'd love to get a game in to show you a thing or two : p

Those are some sweet models! I love your biketarch. If/when my eldar become a reality I am gonna go with a black/bestial brown color scheme. Very different but... i think it'll be nice.

ender502

Here you find a pic of my mech Eldar list (2000 pts): http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/221196.page

I must say I like where this thread is going.

ender502

ender502 wrote:You'll get no argueing from me about spiders. I love them!!!! If this wasn't a mech list i'd be taking them. There is something glorious about that much s6 weaponry hopping about the board!!!

There is a thought. Stuff a full spider squad with exarch and autarch in a serpent and watch your opponent squirm when they pop out
"Where did THEY come from!?"

ender502 wrote:I think probably the strongest eldar lists are really a combined arms list. static, mobile shooty and hitty. The more elements the better!

I completely agree. When you bring the hurt, bring it all!

GeneralX wrote:Where are you from I'd love to get a game in to show you a thing or two : p

Ha ha ha, really? I could say the same, Denver CO. I suspect we are just going to have to agree to disagree.

I'm planning on Adepticon next year and Vegas as well, whenever they will be.

Wustenfux, that is a really beautiful army, well done.

Have you been playing it lately? If so, what has your experience been like?

Kirika wrote:Since you are playing with special characters already I would dump the bike autarach for Yriel. Then dump the Howling Banshees for 8-10 Warlocks to go with Eldrad and Yriel in the Wave serpent with shuriken cannon. Get rid of dire avenger exarchs and bladestorm to make more points for Warlocks. This Eldrad + Yriel + 8-10 Warlocks squad will make an uber assault squad that can soak up alot of fire power and kill both infantry and tanks.

Get brightlances on the dire avenger wave serpents if you can afford it for more anti tank.

I was testing a similar army to this with Jetbike Warlocks and Farseer on Jetbike instead of Eldrad, Yriel and Warlocks on foot and it was pretty decent.

Pretty much exactly how I was thinking of running mech eldar, except I think 2 seer councils is better than Yriel, but alot more expensive, so about double as good for twice the price!

whitedragon wrote:Pretty much exactly how I was thinking of running mech eldar, except I think 2 seer councils is better than Yriel, but alot more expensive, so about double as good for twice the price!

2 full counsels, so many templates, so many witchblades.... *drools*
I posted my version of that army here not long ago. I think I will play it next time I am out.

Augustus wrote:Wustenfux, that is a really beautiful army, well done.

Have you been playing it lately? If so, what has your experience been like?

Thanks.

My experience?
Well, first, troops should stay inside the tanks for scoring purposes. If they hop out, they might be dead.
Second, drop pod spam armies are a pain. They land onto the objectives with Dreads and Tacticals and a mech Eldar has a hard time to remove them. Remember that S6 weapons can only glance non-Ironclad Dreads, and the Council first needs to be brought towards the objectives and next turn can disembark. In a game of 5 rounds with all units in reserve this can be a non-easy task.
Third, hitting always rear armor in cc is a pain, too.