Kilkrazy wrote:Europe generally has a much more collectivist/socialist mindset than the USA.

What I mean is, if you take ordinary citizens and give them psychological tests that analyse their personality, Europeans come out more collectivist and less individualistic than Americans.

Japanese come out more collectivist than Europeans, and British people come out between continental Europeans and Americans.

sebster wrote:Funnily enough, if you give the political tests to Americans, they come out a lot more left wing than either of their political parties.

Miguelsan wrote:
When I was working on LA a couple years back I had breakfast one Sunday with my neighbourgs. They asked me about Spain and when I comented that I was fed up with the Socialist President Mr Zapatero and his (not all) I can´t tie my shoelaces ministers an old lady went "Gosh, Spain has a communist goverment" like you pointed. Her husband quickly explained that in most European countries the Socialist parties were closer to the Democrat party than to the true socialist-marxist ethos, but it shocked me at the time the conection made between two things that are different in theorye and real world.

M.

Envy89 wrote:come on now people... bow down before the chosen one. he will make everything better with sunshine and candy, and gummie bears.

Ahtman wrote:Depends on the questions you ask. We are both fickle and not very astute at the same time. There was an episode of Penn and Tellers Bull***t where they got people to say they thought we gave to much to foreign aid and too little at the same time.

Frazzled wrote:Indeed, nothing stimulates companies to increase jobs like tax increases in a recession... Barney Frank statements about "inevitable" tax increases, statements of "sharing the wealth," and Biden's slip yesterday about not taxing any family making over $150,000 (instead of $250,000) are not helping.

sebster wrote:

Ahtman wrote:Depends on the questions you ask. We are both fickle and not very astute at the same time. There was an episode of Penn and Tellers Bull***t where they got people to say they thought we gave to much to foreign aid and too little at the same time.

Yeah, there's been surveys that ask if the US gives too much foreign aid, and the answer is overwhelmingly 'yes'. When asked how much they should give, the average comes back around 5 or 10%, around five times the actual amount given.

But on issues like universal health care, taxation and the like the general US population normally responds in a manner well to the left of the Democrats.

dogma wrote:

Frazzled wrote:Indeed, nothing stimulates companies to increase jobs like tax increases in a recession... Barney Frank statements about "inevitable" tax increases, statements of "sharing the wealth," and Biden's slip yesterday about not taxing any family making over $150,000 (instead of $250,000) are not helping.

I think the general problem is that most Americans still think of the economy as a closed system, and also do not truly understand the capital gains tax. If you increase income tax people will be more likely to invest over the long term in order to take advantage of the tax break. Similarly, giving tax breaks to small businesses and corporations makes investment in those types of enterprises significantly more likely. This is all compounded by the fact that, in a global economy, investment does not have to come from within the country. If we can make our middle class a decent tax haven investors will act to take advantage.

dogma wrote:

sebster wrote:

Ahtman wrote:Depends on the questions you ask. We are both fickle and not very astute at the same time. There was an episode of Penn and Tellers Bull***t where they got people to say they thought we gave to much to foreign aid and too little at the same time.

Yeah, there's been surveys that ask if the US gives too much foreign aid, and the answer is overwhelmingly 'yes'. When asked how much they should give, the average comes back around 5 or 10%, around five times the actual amount given.

But on issues like universal health care, taxation and the like the general US population normally responds in a manner well to the left of the Democrats.

I remember a test my propaganda professor gave us at the beginning of class, in I think 2007. This was at a top 10 Liberal Arts college, in the political science department, about the influence of rhetoric on foreign wars, in a class consisting entirely of 3rd and 4th years. The test featured questions about the 1st Iraq War (though he called it Gulf War 2, just to throw people off), Iran-Contra, the Cuban Missile Crisis, and other significant international events featuring the US. The average score was 27 out of 100, and even that I suspect was misleading as several people in the class had scores in 90's. Moral of the story? The average American, even the average educated American, is ill-informed.

Frazzled wrote:

Respectfully, increasing corporate income taxes is not going to increase investment in the US. They are NOT talking about reducing capital gains taxes.

dogma wrote:I remember a test my propaganda professor gave us at the beginning of class, in I think 2007. This was at a top 10 Liberal Arts college, in the political science department, about the influence of rhetoric on foreign wars, in a class consisting entirely of 3rd and 4th years. The test featured questions about the 1st Iraq War (though he called it Gulf War 2, just to throw people off), Iran-Contra, the Cuban Missile Crisis, and other significant international events featuring the US. The average score was 27 out of 100, and even that I suspect was misleading as several people in the class had scores in 90's. Moral of the story? The average American, even the average educated American, is ill-informed.

AgeOfEgos wrote:Well, there is some unsettling news for the day. The only thing worse than being ignorant is not realizing you are...at least I'm wondering about myself now . Do I understand your post correctly that he asked questions regarding the specifics...or questions regarding what was rhetoric/fact?

sebster wrote:
Turns out that people who are really bad at something are also the worst at judging whether they're any good or not. So all those things you think you're good at... it might just be that you suck so much you don't know if you're any good or not .

Obama's prime-time ad skips over budget realities
By CALVIN WOODWARD, Associated Press Writer Calvin Woodward, Associated Press Writer – Wed Oct 29, 9:18 pm ET
WASHINGTON – Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama was less than upfront in his half-hour commercial Wednesday night about the costs of his programs and the crushing budget pressures he would face in office.

Obama's assertion that "I've offered spending cuts above and beyond" the expense of his promises is accepted only by his partisans. His vow to save money by "eliminating programs that don't work" masks his failure throughout the campaign to specify what those programs are — beyond the withdrawal of troops from Iraq.

A sampling of what voters heard in the ad, and what he didn't tell them:

THE SPIN: "That's why my health care plan includes improving information technology, requires coverage for preventive care and pre-existing conditions and lowers health care costs for the typical family by $2,500 a year."

THE FACTS: His plan does not lower premiums by $2,500, or any set amount. Obama hopes that by spending $50 billion over five years on electronic medical records and by improving access to proven disease management programs, among other steps, consumers will end up saving money. He uses an optimistic analysis to suggest cost reductions in national health care spending could amount to the equivalent of $2,500 for a family of four. Many economists are skeptical those savings can be achieved, but even if they are, it's not a certainty that every dollar would be passed on to consumers in the form of lower premiums.

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THE SPIN: "I also believe every American has a right to affordable health care."

THE FACTS: That belief should not be confused with a guarantee of health coverage for all. He makes no such promise. Obama hinted as much in the ad when he said about the problem of the uninsured: "I want to start doing something about it." He would mandate coverage for children but not adults. His program is aimed at making insurance more affordable by offering the choice of government-subsidized coverage similar to that in a plan for federal employees and other steps, including requiring larger employers to share costs of insuring workers.

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THE SPIN: "I've offered spending cuts above and beyond their cost."

THE FACTS: Independent analysts say both Obama and Republican John McCain would deepen the deficit. The nonpartisan Committee for a Responsible Federal Budget estimates Obama's policy proposals would add a net $428 billion to the deficit over four years — and that analysis accepts the savings he claims from spending cuts. The nonpartisan Tax Policy Center, whose other findings have been quoted approvingly by the Obama campaign, says: "Both John McCain and Barack Obama have proposed tax plans that would substantially increase the national debt over the next 10 years." The analysis goes on to say: "Neither candidate's plan would significantly increase economic growth unless offset by spending cuts or tax increases that the campaigns have not specified."

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THE SPIN: "Here's what I'll do. Cut taxes for every working family making less than $200,000 a year. Give businesses a tax credit for every new employee that they hire right here in the U.S. over the next two years and eliminate tax breaks for companies that ship jobs overseas. Help homeowners who are making a good faith effort to pay their mortgages, by freezing foreclosures for 90 days. And just like after 9-11, we'll provide low-cost loans to help small businesses pay their workers and keep their doors open. "

THE FACTS: His proposals — the tax cuts, the low-cost loans, the $15 billion a year he promises for alternative energy, and more — cost money, and the country could be facing a record $1 trillion deficit next year. Indeed, Obama recently acknowledged — although not in his commercial — that: "The next president will have to scale back his agenda and some of his proposals."