Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I think in the early days they had a lot of strange ideas that they were padding out. A friends of ours edited the line for a while and wrote some short stories for the original run of books IIRC. At the time there were some ideas that a few people were trying to impose on the GW universe, I think one was "the Blood Angels are all clones which is why they are all blond". The Blood Angels were all rather blond around that time as well I think but that's not canon now. Another problem was that some people may have been submitting material previously written for other purposes and explains why it didn't really appear to fit in after a rewrite.

Pariah Press wrote:It's not the background material that's weird to me (I'm well-familiar with RT and early 2nd edition fluff), It's just the story elements. Sex as a sacrament. A single moment of purity or profanity stretched out over a century by a stasis field. The Emperor as a schizoid lunatic. The alien beast within. The conspiracy within a conspiracy within a conspiracy. Carving a map into a Navigator's eye using scrimshaw tools, and then later plucking out said eye and using it as a weapon. Weird stuff, man. Weird stuff.

Actually, I loved all of that. It all fits in wonderfully with the way I've always pictured the 40K background. What I have trouble with is simply Ian Watson's writing style.

I remember an interview with Watson where he explained that by 20th C standards a medieval man was insane and that therefore, a 40th M man would also be completely nuts to us. so that's his approach to 40k novels.

His style was lurid but he was obviously channeling Lovecraft and CS Lewis' Perelandra books. frankly I'd take Watson's experiments over Abnet's straight up pulp any day.

And Yeovil above both, but that goes without saying.

But how do you guys feel about CS Goto?

I really enjoy Watson's writing style, actually. Plotwise, the novels and the trilogy deteriorate rather rapidly, I'd agree. But paragraph by paragraph, Watson's prose is glorious, delerious, Blancheian, operatic and opiatic. As if some mad monk had scribbled it in secret and stashed it in the cloisters.

Oh, and Railguns, this:
"There are sphincters on both ends of your stomach too...they just aren't as famous. "
Mind if I use that?

I forgot about the Navigator's eye... that part I did find pretty cool... like I said, some of the elements if IW are cool but I always found the combined picture lacking.

CorporateLogo wrote:But how do you guys feel about CS Goto?

That man is a horrible writer. Multi-lasers and Terminators thrown into a Razorback aside he has a gigantic Eldar fetish and somehow manages to slip them into most of his books as the cause of things or some deus ex machina. He's on the same level as Lucien Soulban for me: horrible writers who shouldn't have gotten published in the first place.

Personally I'd like to see more of Si Spurrier and CL Werner.

Kid_Kyoto wrote:frankly I'd take Watson's experiments over Abnet's straight up pulp any day.

Agreed.

And Yeovil above both, but that goes without saying.

No it doesn't. Who's this Yeovil character? I haven't read him. He's good, then?

Jack Jeovil wrote the Vampire Genevieve novels, the favoured fantasy novels in this hosuehold and one of those few that ends happily, more or less.

Pariah Press wrote:

Kid_Kyoto wrote:frankly I'd take Watson's experiments over Abnet's straight up pulp any day.

Agreed.

And Yeovil above both, but that goes without saying.

No it doesn't. Who's this Yeovil character? I haven't read him. He's good, then?

Yeovil is the pen name for an established writer named Kim Newman. When he was like 19 he wrote a couple of fantasy novels (collected into Vampire Genevieve) and books for GWs cCar Wars rip off Dark Future.

His Dark Future books (Route 666, Demon Download, Krokadile Tears and Comeback Tour) are brilliant. I reread them every few years. They're filled with subtle pop culture references, mad ideas and well... it had Elvis, who never left the army, as the meanest bounty hunter south of the Mason Dixon Line. They are awesome.

They were reprinted recently but 'updated' in a hamfisted way. When they were written in the late 80s early 90s they were set in 1999, now they're in 2020. The president's been changed, one character instead of remembering the 60s remembers his father telling him about the 60s etc.

So look for the originals if you can find them.

But his real treasure is Drakensfels (recently reprinted in the Vampire Genevieve omnibus). A group of mismatched heroes (the drunken bandit, the dancer/assassin, the vengeful farmer, the wizard and of course the vampire) led by a handsome prince go after the most even wizard in the world. And die. Horribly. In chapter 1. Chapter 2 starts 20 years later with the greatest playwrite in the world hired to tell their story.

It is BRILLIANT.

Newman is a bit too much in love with his eternally 16 year old Mary Sue vampire but he's a good enough writer I doesn't hurt the books.

Kid_Kyoto wrote:

Pariah Press wrote:

Kid_Kyoto wrote:frankly I'd take Watson's experiments over Abnet's straight up pulp any day.

But his real treasure is Drakensfels (recently reprinted in the Vampire Genevieve omnibus). A group of mismatched heroes (the drunken bandit, the dancer/assassin, the vengeful farmer, the wizard and of course the vampire) led by a handsome prince go after the most even wizard in the world. And die. Horribly. In chapter 1. Chapter 2 starts 20 years later with the greatest playwrite in the world hired to tell their story.

It is BRILLIANT.

That sounds like fun. I'll give it a try next time I'm tired of ancient writings and history books.

CorporateLogo wrote:But how do you guys feel about CS Goto?

MULTILAZ0RS!!!!!!!!!!!1

BYE

Is Goto in the so bad its good camp or the just plain bad camp?

Who wrote the novel for Firewarrior? I heard that was a crime against logic.

Goto is bad beyond redemption in my eyes.

Si Spurrier wrote the Fire Warrior book and it was okay, especially if you played the game first. Anything looks better after that game though..

I'm almost finished the Fire Warrior (the book, on HBMC's recommendation) and it's not bad for a Warhammer novel. Better than Graham McNiell; that's for sure. It's totally over the top, but that's Warhammer for ya'.

Firewarrior was a crime against logic - a single Firewarrior defeats two whole squads of Marines by himself, storms and destroys a Warlord Titan from the inside, and all sorts of other nonsense - but it was a fun read. And it had Captain Ardias in it, before his ironic death at the hands of the Tau some time later.

Dawn of War on the other hand... uhh... no. C.S. GOTO needs to become C.S. GTFO.

BYE

stormtitan wrote:I could not finish the series, it was awful. Absolutely atrocious work. I have no clue why they're re-publishing it, except to torture more unsullied minds.

I'm gonna have to agree with this. The novels had nothing to do with any "war", nor was there a cohesive "through-line" in the series. Get the Xenos, Mallus, Hereticus series if you want a decent read.

To me BL seems to be going downhill as of late, as even the HH series of books is taking a deep dive into crap after Battle for the Abyss. I hope Mechanicum can recover my faith in the series or else I might as well consider it lost. A lot of the other great stuff is also being turned into format-written material, like the Gaunt (die already you bastard!), Gotrek and Felix, or the Caine books for example. The first ones were great but right now they all revolve about how smelly Jurgen is, about one enemy in the open and one hidden for an awful surprise effect along with the same line over and over again: "if I knew this would happen I'd *insert suicide or desertion format here*.."

Not having much hopes up for the rest of the stuff coming out later this and next year. The IG line of novels is rather dull and the only really good release I've read this year (or was it last I can't remember) was Scourge the Heretic, it's not as great as the Eisenhorn saga or the first Ravenor novel but it was a fine read all the same.

Breotan wrote:The novels had nothing to do with any "war",

Sure they did. They had to do with the war between the faction that wanted to enslave the minds of humanity, and those who didn't.

nor was there a cohesive "through-line" in the series.

Draco discovers monstrous conspiracy. Draco can't trust anyone but the Emperor. Draco goes the Emperor and warns him of the monstrous conspiracy. Draco attempts to stop the conspiracy. Oops, Ian Watson got busy; Draco never did finish what he was working on, did he?

Get the Xenos, Mallus, Hereticus series if you want a decent read.

True. These are very good, for Warhammer books. Eisenhorn seems like much more of a 21st Century man (as do most of Abnett's protagonists) to Watson's medieval protagonist in the IW series.

Pariah Press wrote:

nor was there a cohesive "through-line" in the series.

Draco discovers monstrous conspiracy. Draco can't trust anyone but the Emperor. Draco goes the Emperor and warns him of the monstrous conspiracy. Draco attempts to stop the conspiracy. Oops, Ian Watson got busy; Draco never did finish what he was working on, did he?

That is an excellent summary of the series!

And it is a shame that Watson "got busy" and GW will NEVER let him finish the series...

Apparently there was some negotiation between BL and Watson, but there have been a lot of changes at BL. Watson has expressed interest in finishing the series, though. He doesn't like his characters hanging in limbo any more than we do.

BrookM wrote:or the Caine books for example. The first ones were great but right now they all revolve about how smelly Jurgen is, about one enemy in the open and one hidden for an awful surprise effect along with the same line over and over again: "if I knew this would happen I'd *insert suicide or desertion format here*.."

Isn't the next one going to be the last, or something?

Although it'll probably be strung out for another few books. I'd hate for the Cain series to get tired...

Pariah Press wrote:
More or less, yeah.

It's not the background material that's weird to me (I'm well-familiar with RT and early 2nd edition fluff), It's just the story elements. Sex as a sacrament. A single moment of purity or profanity stretched out over a century by a stasis field. The Emperor as a schizoid lunatic. The alien beast within. The conspiracy within a conspiracy within a conspiracy. Carving a map into a Navigator's eye using scrimshaw tools, and then later plucking out said eye and using it as a weapon. Weird stuff, man. Weird stuff.

This is why I keep coming back to the hobby. It's all so absolutely insane that it's irresistable.

If worse comes to worse C.S Goto can always finish off the series. Can't wait to see Draco riding into battle, standing atop a Thunderhawk, then marvel as he jumps off the Thunderhawk to crash-tackle a passing Falcon Grav Tank.

And he will, of course, trade in his Bolter for a Multilaser.

BYE

Pariah Press wrote:Eisenhorn seems like much more of a 21st Century man (as do most of Abnett's protagonists) to Watson's medieval protagonist in the IW series.

Draco, and by extension the entire Inquisitor War trilogy (if you want to call it that), is more the product of a power-gamer RPG session gone horribly wrong than anything medieval. Draco discovers a conspiracy so horrific that it never gets delt with again in the subsequent books, gets face-to-dessicated husk time with the Emperor and the Adeptus Custodes haven't a damned clue, and finally the Harlequins let him kick back in a barcalounger in the Black Library and served him a double tall latte from Starbucks. Oh, and when he finished with all that, he discovered that "it's full of stars" and becomes one with Hal and David Bowman.

Sorry, but I'll forever identify the name Ian Watson with the word "hack".

I liked the ending of the Inquisition War as it is. For me the line that best sums up 40k is "Whatever happens you will not be missed". So the idea that Draco and his band of freaks would save the universe is laughable, it should be laughable.

(SPOILER!)


(SPOILER!)

When they die a pointless death in the webway it again shows the 40k universe is not a happy place where you get pat endings.

One reason I grew tired of the Gaunt books was a scene where a guardsman is on trial (a guardsman? a trial? since when do they get anything but a bolter round in the back?) and Gaunt says something about 'innocent until proven guilty'.

Um what? OK I realize that Abnet has to make his protagenists and the Imperium a bit more sympathetic than they are but... innocent until proven guilty as Imperial policy?

Yeah, I always thought that the Imperium was more of a "better safe than sorry" kinda place.

Kid_Kyoto wrote:
frankly I'd take Watson's experiments over Abnet's straight up pulp any day.

I know you didn't like the snake book, and I never read anything from abnet besides his first Horus book and the first two Gaunt books, but wasn't this guy supposed to be the guy when it comes to 40k novels?

Draco was the first 40k novel I ever read. I was 14 or somewthing like that and read a lot of stupid books. Like anything William King wrote after Skaven Slayer. And before that. I remeber the 1. Inquisiton book to be very....surprising, since I didn't know squat about the Inquisition and Assassin's and stuff. I tried to read Harlequin and stopped after 4 pages.

Concerning Cain, I haven't read the last 2 books, but I enjoyed the first 3 and if the new one really is the last one, than I am fine with that. The books managed to keep me entertained with stories about imperial guard.

One last question: did the Heresy books really become that bad? I was looking forward to Eisenstein but thought it was rather boring. Mechanicum sounds interesting though.

Kid_Kyoto wrote:When they die a pointless death in the webway it again shows the 40k universe is not a happy place where you get pat endings.

Pointless in the larger scheme of the Imperium is one thing, pointless in the construct of a story is another. Pointless deaths can often have great meaning. As an example, the movie Paths of Glory starring Kirk Douglas is all about pointless deaths. More contemporary is Saving Private Ryan where the entire unit is killed trying to "rescue" one person because someone back in the USA decided it's the "right thing to do." Remember Tom Hanks saying, "Earn this."? His death was pointless against the needs of the Army in WWII but it had great meaning in the movie.

Draco and his little band of adventurers died in ways that were completely meaningless to the novel. The entire third book was pretty much meaningless to tell the truth. Face it guys, the Inquisition War books are some of the worst drivvel ever written and no amount of fanboy love will ever change that.

No idea how this second post got here.