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BrotherAtrox wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:Rule of the planets is left up to the people as long as it does not interfere with the core Imperial agenda.

I don't know what else to say - you can find it in the fluff: The Imperium does not require planetary governors to do anything other than pay taxes, worship the Emperor, and turn in psykers. Logistically they cannot monitor and control the entire populace. Its beyond them. Control has to be delegated to the local governors or the bureaucracy would be exponentially worse.

You're missing my point.

Take a real-world fascist regime like Mussolini's Italy, Hitler's Germany or Stalin's Soviet Union.

The government didn't go around telling the children to wash behind their ears and what time to go to bed. They didn't tell the parents to eat more vegetables and switch off the lights when they leave a room. They didn't tell town mayors to store the pencils in the cupboard on the left and the ink in the cupboard on the right.

They didn't waste time on that because it was beneath their notice. They had bigger fish to fry.

In the same way, what a planetary governor does on his planet is beneath the Imperium's notice so long as the tithes and recruits keep flowing. But let something interfere with taxation and the Imperium takes an direct interest and will happily invade the planet to restore order.

Kilkrazy wrote:
You're missing my point.

Take a real-world fascist regime like Mussolini's Italy, Hitler's Germany or Stalin's Soviet Union.

The government didn't go around telling the children to wash behind their ears and what time to go to bed. They didn't tell the parents to eat more vegetables and switch off the lights when they leave a room. They didn't tell town mayors to store the pencils in the cupboard on the left and the ink in the cupboard on the right.

They didn't waste time on that because it was beneath their notice. They had bigger fish to fry.

In the same way, what a planetary governor does on his planet is beneath the Imperium's notice so long as the tithes and recruits keep flowing. But let something interfere with taxation and the Imperium takes an direct interest and will happily invade the planet to restore order.

I'm not missing your point at all - I'm saying its a point that doesn't make a good argument. Will the Imperium show up in force if a Governor misses enough tithes? Yes. But what else will they show up for? Heresy or refusal to hand over psykers. That's it. If they don't impose on the lives of Imperial citizens except in those cases I don't see how you can classify it as fascism - a point you continue to claim but refuse to support.

To explain my point a third time, a fascist state does not exercise iron control over every aspect of citizens' live, it exercises iron control over every aspect that matters to it.

The Imperium has no more interest in what goes on below the level of planet than Stalin did in whether people opened their boiled eggs at the sharp end or blunt end. If they did, there are plenty of coercive forces at their fingertips ranging from the Imperial Church to inquisitors.

You in your turn have failed to counter any of my other points about fascism and the Imperium.

they aren't racist but afraid of all the scary space monsters and they just shoot at every thing that doesn't look like a human

Kilkrazy wrote:To explain my point a third time, a fascist state does not exercise iron control over every aspect of citizens' live, it exercises iron control over every aspect that matters to it.

The Imperium has no more interest in what goes on below the level of planet than Stalin did in whether people opened their boiled eggs at the sharp end or blunt end. If they did, there are plenty of coercive forces at their fingertips ranging from the Imperial Church to inquisitors.

You in your turn have failed to counter any of my other points about fascism and the Imperium.

Okay. Here are the 10 main tenets of Fascism, according to the notes from my Political Science class. By logic, if the Imperium does not fulfill enough of these tenets, they are not classifiable as a Fascist government.

1. Vehement Nationalism: Very much present in the Imperium.
2. Ignoring of Human Rights: This varies from planet to planet.
3. Supremacy of the Military: Very much an aspect of the Imperium.
4. Control of the Media: Varies from planet to planet, but logistically impossible for Terra to control even a fraction of it.
5. Religion used as an "enciter": An truly Imperial trait.
6. Unions and worker rights are supressed: Varies from planet to planet. Again not something Terra can control.
7. Xenophobia: Not exactly fair since the xenos tend to be equally hostile.
8. Repression of intellectuals: Not really. Again depends on the planet.
9. Election Fraud: Yet again, depends on the individual "states" in the Imperium.
10. Racism/sexism/etc.: Lastly, this too depends on where you are in the Imperium.

Your argument seems to rely on the Imperium actually having that much control when they simply don't. Terra can barely enforce its current policies of: pay your taxes, worship the Emperor, hand over your psykers. Of the 10 tenets, 6 are contingent upon the policies of the local government. I have no idea how else to communicate this. Unless my college professor blatantly lied to me, I have given you the most widely accepted definition of fascism and given you my argument for how the Imperium does not fit this definition. Honestly to think that we can apply ANY modern political definition to it is extremely foolish. We're talking about a government that oversees billions upon billions of people, on billions of different planets with billions of different cultures, views, political beliefs, etc. There is no classification for such a government in the modern political vocabulary.

well i have to agree with the thread title out of all the SM armies i have seen i have never seen a black space marine,
there might be one out there but i have yet to see it.

Space Marine Salamanders,look em up

Here's an idea for you... The imperium and space marines aren't your traditional good guys. There are no real "good guys" in 40k. It's evil empire vs. more evil empire with genecide on everyone's mind. Yes they are totally racist, as is the entire imperium. Do you blame them though?

do i blame then? hell no i dont. imagine you ACTUALLY lived in the 40k universe, no you cannot be a super SM or anything crazy. just you, right now, but in the 40k universe. how terrifying would that be? knowing that at any moment, your neighbor could turn into a massive chaos spawn that wants to devour you, or your planting a garden and the ground erupts and some necrons pour out, OR a massive alien invasion (take your pick, Orks or Nids would suck equally IMO)
Id WANT the Imperial Government to act exactly as they do in this game lol be paranoid, and hate everything that isnt with us, it really WOULD make it a little safer.

Luciustheeternal wrote:Here's an idea for you... The imperium and space marines aren't your traditional good guys. There are no real "good guys" in 40k. It's evil empire vs. more evil empire with genocide on everyone's mind. Yes they are totally racist, as is the entire imperium. Do you blame them though?

Just like WHFB. In the far future there is only war and so on. The entirety of the b/g is written to enable not only ever side to fight with each other, but also different factions/chapters/septs/craftworlds/hive fleets etc etc etc to fight each other as well. So that anyone who participates in the hobby can play against anyone else.

On a personal note, I find SM's ethically ugly. They are not even really still human. They do not live normal human lives, have normal human relationships and are not even replaced by normal human means. And their presentation in the fluff represents (what I perceive to be) their arrogance and blatant disregard for those whom they are supposedly there to protect very well. On a another thread there was joke about Captain Kirk becoming Lord Solar Macharius. SMs are wont to let people die, in order that others live. Whereas Kirk almost always tried his utmost to save everyone.

They are a phenomenally small number* of power armoured seven foot tall emotionless killing machines who have a disproportionate influence on events. Perhaps if they ever behaved with a shred of remorse or compassion, they might lead the universe to a more enlightened time ? But then we'd have no games to play. Perhaps it's for the best that they are unsympathetic and generally unpleasant. It makes it quite easy to fight against them, even if you are also a SM player.

The hard/pragmatic/realist attitude of the SM could be seen as an evil. However, as every side in 40K is just going to try and kill all the others anyway, I don't suppose it makes much difference.

*A thousand Chapters of a Thousand SMs. According to Rouge Trader

Care to explain what a normal human life is? I bet 4000 years ago, humans lived pretty different lives than they do now. Does that make us abnormal then?

Dexy wrote:Care to explain what a normal human life is? I bet 4000 years ago, humans lived pretty different lives than they do now. Does that make us abnormal then?

Normal, in this context, could helpfully be taken to mean that which applies to the majority of our sample. As the sample in this case is humanity in the 40K universe, which Brian Ansell tells us amounts to "untold billions", that would point to the SM, as genered super soldiers, a very small sample by comparison, as being abnormal.




(off topic) Anyway, you're in London. With ~7 million people outside your window, just looking outside would give an idea of what normal is.....