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I dunno, I think Lash Spam (ludicrous name for a list strat, btw, how is it spam when there's a pair? I prefer Twin-Lash) could have trouble if the troops are hiding in reserves (in pods), particularly as most modern lashes come on Sorcerers rather than Princes.

40kenthusiast wrote:ludicrous name for a list strat, btw, how is it spam when there's a pair?

It's a derogatory name. The implication is that the list takes no skill or ability to win with, as all you do is spam Lash over and over and over until your opponent is gone.

Most power builds are no brainers. They turn the game into a deck of cards game.

G

Does the list lose a significant amount if the Dreads are regular and not Ironclad? I personally a)don't have that many Ironclads, b)prefer to have some long-range shooting for my walking dreads, and c)enjoy the extra points that it allows me. I can usually fit in three tac squads with Razorbacks, a MotF, and 6 regular dreads at 1500, which is pretty good armor saturation and decent firepower against horde lists.

Im suprised no one has mentioned how poorly this list would do against Necrons. It would get absolutely smoked by mass gauss weapons fire.

Augustus5, that Avatar is brilliant. I laughed when I saw that.

Tzeenchling, can you not just convert a regular dreadnought into an Ironclad?

Well, it does take another close combat arm to convert into an Ironclad, plus the heavier armor needs to be represented and possibly the grenade launchers too, plus the meltagun to go with it - which tend to get used on my troops.

I played against 6 ironclad dreads the other day and wasn't really all that impressed. Daemon princes can handle 1, 2 on average each and deepstriking terminators love to get at that rear armour. And all my rhinos in my mechanized force have combi-meltas, so I'm not at much loss for anti-tank weaponry.

Lash can't affect Dreads. Lash has a specific restriction against vehicles (any vehicles). Ironclad Spam is tough for nearly anyone to deal with.

Zilla builds (either Nidzilla or Daemonzilla) will do a number to them, but it follows the basic principle of taking a good, resilient unit and using it to overwhelm your opponent. That's been the core of the most successful lists for a while now - Nidzilla and Eldar Air Cav in V4, and horde and nob biker orks in 5th.

any list with nothing but av 13 and 14 is tough right from the word go because it eliminates most of the weapons in the game. You take 3 vindicators and 3 iron clad dreads with a landraider full of assault termies and you have a nasty army that will steam roll most opponants. there are always counterbuilds but then you have to ask yourself how likely you are to encounter those builds in a tourny, thus the metagame.

I didn't....I didn't say lash. I said Daemon Prince. If the enemy army is almost all dreads I'll gladly forego the chance to lash the enemy in order to make sure my squads don't get mangled by dreadnoughts they can't hurt in cc, and throw my daemon princes at them.

It's mostly why I still go with lash princes instead of sorcerors - princes suck too much to take out whole squads on their own, but they do quite well against vehicles.

Dreadnoughts run behind land raider.

Assault range of Demon princes is 18".

Assault range of Terminators inside of Land Raider is 12" + 2" + 6" = 20"

It's almost impossible for two Daemonprinces to get two successful charges against the 'Clads. You might get one, but Terminators will smoosh one and shooting will dakka down the other.

Deep Striking Terminators are kind of a threat, but unless they kill the Land Raider they're no taking away the 'Clads' primary cover source, scatters are dangerous, and counterassault will smoosh them. Likewise, it looks lame as hell, but you can put 'Clads back-to-back and samba up the battlefield. Nobody gets rear armor, unless you want to give me a 3+ cover save.

Necrons:
Yes, they're dirty, but Destroyer spam or whacky disruption field builds are the only ones that are really a threat. Glances do *not* kill 6 walkers and a Land Raider before they get into combat. Smoke is a big help, as is the giant AV14 brick sitting in front of them.

tzeentchling wrote:Does the list lose a significant amount if the Dreads are regular and not Ironclad?

I personally feel the list loses a great deal of effectiveness if you are using regular dreads and not ironclads. AV12 is much more susceptible to all kinds of shooting and to powerfists, S9 becomes deadly instead of threatening, and one CCW means a single weapon destroyed result drops close combat effectiveness to something like 20%.

Well, it does take another close combat arm to convert into an Ironclad, plus the heavier armor needs to be represented and possibly the grenade launchers too, plus the meltagun to go with it - which tend to get used on my troops.

I bought the right close combat arm off of Forge World for about $12.00 apiece. Expensive, but not that much so if you're using the $10.00 Black Reach dreadnought. I never buy the assault launcher, so those aren't necessary (waste of points, imo), meltaguns can be bought online from any bits site or ebay for about $1.50 per gun, and extra armor can be as simple as plasticard rectangles glued over any bulky bits.

There is not much reason anymore to field a vanilla dread.

G

sure, vanila dreds are still good, but mostly as hellfire dreads, ie two long range weapons. for 125 points, the two autocannon dread will find a place in my 6 dread army for sure. and, for 145 the classic las cannon missle launcher dread sitting in cover is a nice buy as it can move and shoot everything. Is it better than a perd anhilator which costs 20 more points and has front armor 13? not really, although it is smaller and can move and shoot.

but, a cheap normal dread in a pod with an assault cannon and a heavy flamer is still just as good as it was last edition, better actually as it is harder to kill, although the ass cannon is weaker.

the venerable dread is the one i just cant justify buying. The ironclad is better in HtH, and the shooting weapons worth taking are nrealy all twin linked so the BS5 is largely wasted. for 60 extra points its just no good. if it came iwth either furious assault or tank hunters for free in its points, then i would consider it as a las cannon missle launcher BS5 dread with tank hunters is a bad ass anti tank unit.

plus, for 105 points, a normal dread is cheap as chips and still a threat to any type of unit on the table.

You're using that dreadnought in a different role than what is proposed by the Dreaded Wedge.

A "vanilla" dread is mobile fire support with a big fist for close combat stuff.

6 Ironclads are an assault oriented line breaker, that get stuck in and simultaneously bog down troop squads while beating them to death and tearing through vehicles.

Fire support vs primary offensive.

Aside from extra armour (which may or maynot discout the vanillia flavour) upgrades and such, that multimelta, deepstriking in a pod means you can deal with the few vehicaluar threats on your 1st turn assault.

Ironclads can do this but with 12'' 2d6 penetration range compared to 6'', loosing urself +1av onto sides & front & the extra cc wep is atleast worth one of these guys.

Again.. assuming you include drop pod seasoning into vanillia flavour.

How about scrapping the drop pods and starting with all 6 IronClads on the board with say...2 HK's apeice as an opening salvo?

Sure its only str 8 but its quite a bit, and you'll save a few points to maybe go elsewhere in your list.

...little something I was thinking about. An Initial walk 6" forward from the line and unleash, then run toward HtH.

Sounds interesting. My friend is talking about this list so I thought about it a little. Using my base list of chaos and Orks I think it would be slightly in my favor. Oblits would be a nightmare for these guys, as would any champion, Ork or Chaos, with a powerfist. The real pain comes in with how many hits you take before you get you couple of attacks that might just miss. I'd be pretty confident in my massed lascannon (3 oblits and LR) and meltas on my chossen to take them out for marines. The Orks with Rokkits, klaws, and lootas would be a little more risky though, especially since the chance of a character being insta-killed is extremely high.

If I was to use this list though, I would advance the dreds in pairs so one is always obscuring the other from the most devestating of shooting. Once you hit CC it's all up to the dice.

augustus5 wrote:Im suprised no one has mentioned how poorly this list would do against Necrons. It would get absolutely smoked by mass gauss weapons fire.

You are absolutely right. I don't know that you'd face too many necrons in the tourney scene now though with how much 5th ed hosed them (IMHO).

Again, Mass gauss fire is irritating but this list by no means gets "smoked". The Master of the Forge repairs any weapon destroyed/immobilized result on a 3+ and the crusader moves fast enough to pile into warrior squads before they can rapid fire.

Oblits would be a nightmare for these guys, as would any champion, Ork or Chaos, with a powerfist.

Unless they're on a furious charging unit, Ironclads laugh at power fists. 2 attacks at S8 versus AV13 = fail. Oblits are a problem, but the land raider full of assault terminators has a longer assault range than the oblits do melta range.

sourclams wrote:Again, Mass gauss fire is irritating but this list by no means gets "smoked". The Master of the Forge repairs any weapon destroyed/immobilized result on a 3+ and the crusader moves fast enough to pile into warrior squads before they can rapid fire.

So is he just walking up behind the Dread line? Most people who use a MotF stick him in the back with a Conversion Beamer. You envision him moving in support of the dreads, probably within a tac squad I guess?

I've never seen any use for the conversion beamer. Within 48" it's just a missile launcher. I run him in the same scrimmage line as the dreadnoughts, either in a razorback or attached to a squad.

The conversion beamer uses a blast template. With strength 8 it can still insta kill most troops, transports, and even the nob biker or two that it wounds.

the conversion beamer needs to be far away to be of any use, if oyu put him on a bike with it then you have something, although not worth the points IMHO.

6 ironclads walking upfield with a land raider crusader in the middle with thunder hammer assault termies is savage.

and Thalor, why do you think an ironclad has to fear a powerfist attack? a champ or SM sarge only has 2 attacks, 3 on the charge and only glances on a 5? those arent good odds. In 4th edition combat between a normal dread and a squad of orks or chaosmarines usually went on for ever and it was easier to kill a dread then. i think an ironclad dread has a good chance of keeping an ork mob or MEQ squad tied up or even defeating them in combat. You take two and it pretty much a done deal.

if an ironclad charges, it will most likely kill two MEQ's. An ork nob would average one glance or pen, an MEQ would average less than one. That means unless the powerfist gets really lucky, its squad will continuously lose combat, eventually breaking. Two ironclads makes it happen all the faster.

Just remember that you can only have 5 ironclads if you take the assault terminators. Plus that is a HUGE amount of points.

I really like the idea of throwing hunter killer missiles on the ironclads instead of drop podding in. 12 missiles flying in first turn should kill a few AV11 vehicals or cause a few wounds on a MC.