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Green Blow Fly wrote:They should be twin linked since they are double barrelled.

G

They are double barrelled because they are multimeltas.

I think they are just two meltaguns firing together, meaning the heat from the blobs of promethium dissapates slower thus giving their greater range.

Thank you for the clarification. Maybe the double barrel is a range multiplier?

G

Grimaldi wrote:

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath wrote:

Deadshane1 wrote:
Dreadnought charges 10 man squad that got too close to enemy due to the range of its heavy weapon, a Multi-Melta. Dreadnought kills 1, tac squad does nothing to dread....they CHOOSE to break from combat and fall back 9-10", dreadnought rolls consolidation and fails to consolidate within 6" of squad in order to keep them from rallying at the beginning of the marine turn. Unit rally's and lets the dreadnought have it at 11" away with its MM, a melta at max range, and (what the heck) a bolter-melta from the sarge. MM easily penetrates as its within 1/2 range. Pen +1 against dread.

Page 46
"Regrouping

..
Once a unit has regrouped... For example, it can shoot (though it always counts as moving on the turn it regroups) or run...."


Cool tactic, but it doesn't work with the falling back unfortunately. Once they regroup, they still count as moving and thus can't fire heavy weapons. Works great for meltaguns though.

MMs are still the best choice. They're free with a 10 man, and unless you're sitting around on your own tableedge lobbing shots you may as well go for the MM. If you're drop-podding your tacticals, or charging them forward in rhinos, you're not going to find too many occasions to use those heavy weapons, since you're always going to be moving. On those occasions where you are, you need to think about what you're wanting that shot to do. From my experience, anytime I find myself really wanting that heavy weapon I'm shooting at a tank. Since I drop pod, and are therefore super close to the enemy anyways, I'd rather have a MM over a lascannon anyways. Once you throw in the points difference, there's no reason to even consider the lascannon.

If you're running a more static army, then other options may be more attractive. Same goes if you're tailoring your list against a specific enemy (i would rather have plasma cannons against a deathwing army for example, or HBs vs horde). However with an aggressive army, MM is the way to go. Now if only those damned devastator boxed sets came with more than one of them! grrrr

That would be an excellent point if the Space Marine codex didn't give marines "And they shall know no fear" which lets them ignore counting as having moved after they automatically rally. Other than that, you're dead on.

well i'll be damned, teaches me for not knowing my own codex well enough.

The whole LC/MM debate really comes down to "what am i going to use this unit for?"

If it's a stay-at home tactical, flanking up a far side far away from enemies, or anywhere that you are likely to be a ways from anything it might be firing at, then lascannons are a no brainer.

However in a drop pod army, or an aggressive mech army, any time you're feeling like keeping the unit stationary to fire the heavy weapon it's likely at close range, and likely to be at a vehicle. I'd rather have a MM in that scenario than anything else.

You dont really see many lascannons in SM armies anymore.

G

to be at a vehicle. I'd rather have a MM in that scenario than anything else.

My current thinking with the Pod list I'm working on, is to take a Tac squad with a MM and Melta, and one with a Las and Plas. In quite a few missions htere is going to be a "far away" objective that needs taking, and that's where I want to drop my Lascannon. For the "other guys" objective, that's where the MM squad is going.

You dont really see many lascannons in SM armies anymore.

I think that's more trendy than substance. THey're still a very good weapon, and they still have a lot of utility. People just see the AP1 and think they have to respond to the changes in the vehicle damage rules.

Phryxis wrote:

to be at a vehicle. I'd rather have a MM in that scenario than anything else.

My current thinking with the Pod list I'm working on, is to take a Tac squad with a MM and Melta, and one with a Las and Plas. In quite a few missions htere is going to be a "far away" objective that needs taking, and that's where I want to drop my Lascannon. For the "other guys" objective, that's where the MM squad is going.

You dont really see many lascannons in SM armies anymore.

I think that's more trendy than substance. THey're still a very good weapon, and they still have a lot of utility. People just see the AP1 and think they have to respond to the changes in the vehicle damage rules.

I used to do this too, but it invariably became the las/plas unit that was facing down a LR and the other unit way out in the middle of nowhere. However, I haven't played a real 1v1 with my pod list in a long time, it's been all 2v2s and my teammate tends to be loaded up with lascannons.

I had one lascannon in a 1250 point tourney this weekend and it was an ace:

1st game drops landspeeder
2nd game drops two raiders
3rd game dropped two Nurgle rhinos

They are still very good but not great against LRs unless you take a good number of them.

G

Kapitan montag wrote:thus giving their greater range.

Green Blow Fly wrote:Maybe the double barrel is a range multiplier?

I see both sides of this argument but am unwilling to take sides.

MM are actually much better at killin stuff than pretty much anything else point wise.
1- they are free
2- vulcan makes them twin-linked
3- they don't get hot and scatter (possibly on your stuff)
4- when you're in half range you get 2D6 armor pen
4b- when you're in half range you get to say that you're in "extra crispy" range
5- helluva lot easier to put together with the new plastic figs
6- AP 1


fin.

Alphus wrote:MM are actually much better at killin stuff than pretty much anything else point wise.
1- they are free
2- vulcan makes them twin-linked
3- they don't get hot and scatter (possibly on your stuff)
4- when you're in half range you get 2D6 armor pen
4b- when you're in half range you get to say that you're in "extra crispy" range
5- helluva lot easier to put together with the new plastic figs
6- AP 1


fin.

If you bring Vulcan they're hardly free.

He meant for tactical squads.

G

captain.gordino wrote:

Kapitan montag wrote:thus giving their greater range.

Green Blow Fly wrote:Maybe the double barrel is a range multiplier?

I see both sides of this argument but am unwilling to take sides.

Was that a lame attempt to troll?

LOL!

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:He meant for tactical squads.

G

hehe...so did I.

Bring Vulkan to accent your tactical squads and the MM's are no longer free. You pay for vulkan to make your tacticals better. I forget how much he is right now, but lets assume that he's 180 pts. If you bring 6 tactical squads with melta/MM (thats a lot of hypothetical marines, but you'll get the idea) You're basically paying 15pts per melta to twin-link them. (something you dont really need to do with 12 melta weapons out there, and 15pts per is actually a lot of points to be spending.

Basically they arent free anymore. Since Vulkan's HtH ability is negligible (there are a lot better choices if you're looking for HtH specials) this is obviously his real usage.

Essentially, vulkan adds to the price of your t-hammers, meltas, MM's, and flamers. Figure what you're bringing and distribute his points accordingly, that's what you're paying extra for your stuff.

I know what you are saying and I know what he was saying. In reality nothing is free... except for advice. Oh well.

G

Deadshane1 wrote: Since Vulkan's HtH ability is negligible (there are a lot better choices if you're looking for HtH specials) this is obviously his real usage.

Master crafted Relic Blade, Digital Weapons, flamer, 2+/3++ save, negligible?

He is no Shrike, but he is still rather powerful in CC.

If you are willing to give up Combat Tactics (really the biggest downside), he is a pretty good value imo.

His hth ability is negligible? Really? Who else in the marine codex are you advocating that is a 'better choice for hth specials?' Shrike for fleet? Kahn for hit and run and furious charge for his squad? Cassius for rerolls? or are you going straight for Calgar, who is also 60 points more?

Basic fact is, yes, you probably are paying points for the upgrade, but it really isnt that much if you add it up. You are required to have an HQ, and unless you get a Librarian (who is arguably worse in hth), Chaplain for reroll goodness, or Shooty MoTF, who else are you getting? The other chars most likely change the concept of the army (fleet, etc) and they almost all have the exact same stats as Hestan.

Add up Hestan's points. 100 point for Captain stats, digital lasers, storm shield(basically just pay to get the 3+ he has), relic blade, master crafted, artificer armor, etc and it comes up to near 180. Add in a rerolling to wound heavy flamer (which seems close to reasonable at 15 or 20 points) and what are you really paying to twin link? 5 to 10 points? if anything? Only thing you would reduce would be because you cant get a command squad.

You do lose out on the options to get fleet or outflank, but the other chars lose the option for twin linking. 4 WS6 STR6 attacks with a reroll to hit and a reroll to wound, PLUS a twin linked heavy flamer if you are charging in isnt bad at all. It is alot of consistent damage, and fairly good all around.

I said negligible, not sucky.

3 str 6 attacks doesnt really blow my skirt up, sorry. Tack on the fact that he's susceptable to Instant death and doenst have a FnP bonus like two other specials. There are other Specials out there that throw out 5 attacks (some with RR's), or have str 8 or 10 or have an Instant Death ability.

Yes, vulkans HtH ability is negligible in the Marine Codex. You get him for his upgrades, thats what you're paying for, not his close combat ability. If you want a Character for his fighting ability....vulkan isnt where you're going to be looking.

Don't get so insulted, Vulkan is sort of cool, but he isnt a HtH powerhouse.

BoxANT wrote:
If you are willing to give up Combat Tactics (really the biggest downside), he is a pretty good value imo.

Giving up combat tactics is a HUGE problem, ESPECIALLY for MM armed tacticals.

Without Combat Tactics, your MM armed tacticals are just as crappy as they would've been with the 4e marine codex.

Salamanders was my army for a long time and aside from fluff considerations, I wouldn't take Vulkan in my army. Combat Tactics is the biggest bonus that the army has on it's side and giving that up for anything is pretty big.

My one exception would be Shrike for the CC oriented SM player out there. Possible 27 inch threat range on CC termies is pretty spiffy at times.

But back on topic, MM are just as good as Lascannons in a vast majority of situations and better in certain situations. The static gunline theory for SM isn't as good as useful as it used to be and that was where lascannons excelled.

Vulkan is a good HQ choice for Space Marines. He is very nice for players that want to field Salamanders.

G

Deadshane, I am by no means insulted, we are simply having a discussion. You previously stated that he adds 15 points or so per weapon based on his cost to twin link it. I was stating that I disagreed, that the point value of his items, etc means he is reasonable for what he is equipped with, he gives out good consistent damage with STR 6 a reroll to hit and a reroll to wound, and a S5 rerolling to wound flamer. The excess points to twin link arent that much, if anything it isnt pointswise, but the loss of combat tactics.

The characters with feel no pain you mentioned have simple S4 power weapon attacks (although Cassius is ridiculously good for his points, and there is no reason to take an ordinary chaplain). As with all the special characters, you have to buy them with what they are equipped with to get their bonuses, which is unfortunate.

There are other characters in the codex that are better in hth, but he isnt that bad for his points for what he adds to the army.

I have played Salamanders since 3rd, and although Hestan is ok, I am disappointed that they didnt give him eternal warrior and a thunder hammer, or perhaps T6 feel no pain like cassius, as the original salamander cloak rules allowed similar to this. It seems they are handing out eternal warrior like candy, but wont give it to the original marine faction with it. Though I guess he would be very similar to the Imperial Fists character, whom they already had a model for.

My real disappointment with Vulkan Hestan is that he does not count as a Captain, and thus cannot have a command squad, and thus you cannot have 4 flamers/meltas all twin linked unless you get another captain. That would have made for some fun (but probably overpriced) combos.

i like the multimelta for back field objective holding. you know the objectives you lose to being tank shocked away. very few people will tank shock a squad with a mm.

Arctik_Firangi wrote:

Green Blow Fly wrote:They should be twin linked since they are double barrelled.

G

That's exactly why my dreadnought's Multi-Metla looks like this:

They are called multi meltas because the twin barrels allow it to achieve a greater range by maximizing the field effect of the beams over longer distances. The beams essentially keep eachother in line, preventing the dispersion at medium to long range seen in regular meltas. If you just have one melta barrel then all you have is a meltagun.

At least thats GWs line of reasoning. A twin linked multimelta would have to have four barrels on separately contained systems.


That dreadnaut just has a meltagun. No a multimelta.

Deadshane1 wrote:

Alphus wrote:MM are actually much better at killin stuff than pretty much anything else point wise.
1- they are free
2- vulcan makes them twin-linked
3- they don't get hot and scatter (possibly on your stuff)
4- when you're in half range you get 2D6 armor pen
4b- when you're in half range you get to say that you're in "extra crispy" range
5- helluva lot easier to put together with the new plastic figs
6- AP 1


fin.

If you bring Vulcan they're hardly free.

I'd have to disagree, MM are still free in tac squads even with vulcan. The twin-linkyness is just a bonus because you just roll vulkan in a crusader with some TH/SS termys and voilia! Death in a box! And on top of that he has a STR 6 PW!

nuff said.

Deadshane1 wrote:
hehe...so did I.

Bring Vulkan to accent your tactical squads and the MM's are no longer free. You pay for vulkan to make your tacticals better. I forget how much he is right now, but lets assume that he's 180 pts. If you bring 6 tactical squads with melta/MM (thats a lot of hypothetical marines, but you'll get the idea) You're basically paying 15pts per melta to twin-link them. (something you dont really need to do with 12 melta weapons out there, and 15pts per is actually a lot of points to be spending.

Basically they arent free anymore. Since Vulkan's HtH ability is negligible (there are a lot better choices if you're looking for HtH specials) this is obviously his real usage.

Essentially, vulkan adds to the price of your t-hammers, meltas, MM's, and flamers. Figure what you're bringing and distribute his points accordingly, that's what you're paying extra for your stuff.

Um....really now?

No, I don't think you're being fair, really. Vulkan isn't 190 points spread out over the army, he's 20. And really, he's less than that.

Huron Blackheart is a very similar character - invulnerable save, heavy flamer, psychic power to give him rerolls. For 20 points more than Huron Blackheart Vulkan gets a better armour save, a master-crafted heavy flamer, a S6 power weapon that fights at initiative [as opposed to a power weapon and power fist] and that gets a re-roll to hit and wound without having to cast a cancel-able psychic power, and a WAY better invulnerable save. IN ADDITION to all that enhanced ability he also gives his army twin-linked weapons.

So, yeah, it's FREE. Especially considering that, if you do all the math, Vulkan is BETTER in close combat than a daemon prince, and would beat any in a 1on1 fight. As long as a weapon doesn't cause instant death Vulkan is an amazing fighter, and even if it does he's got the ability to stand up to it as long as you can continue to roll 3+s.

Vulkan's amazing, hands-down.

Hes more expensive than a comparable master without the supershot and he replaces combat tactics with twin linked flamers. Abadon is a close combat powerhouse, lysander is a close combat powerhouse, a hive tyrant is a close combat powerhouse, vulkan is just a captain with a shield and a relic blade. His value comes from the twin linking of melta and flamer weapons. Not from any real value proposition built into the character. Without an army to support his special army wide ability he's just a more expensive captain.

MM's are solid because they are free as has been said, and because they give you a potent anti tank punch. Put a 10 man squad in a drop pod, take a flamer, MM and combi metla and you have a very versatile squad that on the drop has one less shot than normal with bolters and after having dropped, has a 24' bubble of no go zone for most tanks.

i think that for an advancing tacitcal squad (which they should be doing as they are scoring units and sniper scouts are better for holding your own objective) the MM is superior to the las cannon.

if you do have a unit sitting back and shooting then yes, the las cannon (or plasma cannon) is superior for the range.

So the consensus is free.

G

Just.... do the math. He's better than a daemon prince in close combat. That's pretty darn good, honestly.

So is any other captain with a storm shield and relic blade? He's also more expensive than a comparable daemon prince. He loses out to a hive tyrant at the same points and dies terribly to any sort of dreadnaut/wraithlord/chaos lord/warboss on bike/nearly every other space marine special character.