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40k- The only game where you don't bring a gun to a knife fight.

Running is huge. I love how people go, "Oh well your guys can also run!" Wow, that's really useful. :S Thanks. Now instead of shooting at the enemy, I'm running from them, delaying the inevitable. Yes, I also hate run.

The ubiqitous 4+ cover save. All the shots in the world do jack when half of them are being negated. Oh, "Orks only have a 6+ save bla bla blah". No, they also have essentially a 4+ invul save thanks to KFF.

And the charge 6" move is what really does it. That's what breaks a shooting army's spine is that extra 6" move. Perhaps if it was 3" then it wouldn't be so darn bad.

And yes, an army geared for CC has more attacks. That's just how it works. Perhaps the game would be balanced if they all lost 1 or 2 attacks (Orks I'm looking at you), and also if shooting did more damage to LD. "Oh a tank shell just hit us and killed 3 guys! Oh well, I have LD10 so no biggie."

Unfortunately GW only cares about sales so I doubt this will ever happen, which is too bad. Hopefully in 6th edition every CC army will get a nerf stick right in the crotch. I wouldn't mind that at all.

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

Janthkin wrote:

Redbeard wrote:But, keep in mind that the game is billed as a "Heroic Combat" game. Charging your opponent while waving your sword is clearly more heroic than sitting in a bunker with a machine gun, and so the game is designed to reward playing heroicly.

Pity all the armies aren't designed to reward such behavior.

The only one that really matters is. Come on, we all know that Warhammer 40,000 at its core is really Space Marine 40,000, and ultimately all the rules are just there to enable your noble space marines to scream baldly while they beat on squishy gribblies in a heroic fashion.

The secret of 40k is that everyone is a space marine.

I think the big thing that favours cc is objectives. You have to get up close and personal, and the best way to deal with that is to either assault, or, if your opponent is shooting, counterassault.
However, Mech armies are quite effective against a lot of Assaulters, and Orks and 'Nids get really nervous in a pie-plate-party.

As long as there are infantry carried blunt melee weapons that blow up tanks, you're not going to convince me that 40K doesn't favor CC.

Mobility. As an answer, uh no. Sorry, nice try. Now, try it without trying to sell LOSE to your opponent. Shooting armies troops still have rapid fire weaponry, not assault. Which means that in order to move, and still be able to shoot at you, they have to move no further than 12", or in other words, they have to move so that they're still in assault range. Yeah, they get to shoot twice, against 30 orks, after misses, failed rolls to wound, and then saves from the KFF, or against marines with their 3+ armor, your not getting all of them. Then, if you're lucky, they assault you and your unit dies, if you're not lucky, your unit dies on your turn, the enemy consolidates closer to your next unit, moves 6, and quite possible can assault the next unit. How messed up is that, when as the general you hope your unit of soldiers gets wiped out quickly, as it's more of an advantage to you?

dancingcricket wrote:As long as there are infantry carried blunt melee weapons that blow up tanks, you're not going to convince me that 40K doesn't favor CC.

I agree with the above statement - Nob with PK - 6" move + 6" WAAAGH! (w/Gaz or weirdboy or normal) + 6" charge = 18" of tank busting killin potentail. Idk how fast you are on foot there is no way you can still move as far as a vehicle going flat out (which cant shoot btw) and still fight. Period makes no since what so ever.

I ran a squad of 16 boyz and on a charge they had 64 attacks w/out the Nob or Big Mek. - my tau gunline could only get 24 shots off at best. The loss of the ability to negatively effect LD via shooting has really unbalanced the game imo, also makes it harder to pin a unit which was one of my strategies.

Tau need a reworking. yes markerlights remove cover but they are overpriced and can't be used by the unit that used them (non networked markerlights that is) also its not really cost effective to have them on FW squads (40 point sergent for markerlight, +1 LD, and bonding knife just isn't worth it).

I do use run - wind up running the other direction to try to avoid the inevitable.

Yes as I tau player I have constatnly racked my mind for how to deal with adapting to 5th - haven't tried mech tau but they way my army is set up it wouldn't work well (and cost too much $ for me to fix). I'm still playing around with my second squad of suits

I used my tau as an example (least capable CC army and one of the more shooty armies). end rant.

Sha1emade wrote:Well lets also conciser the fluff here as well. 40k is a fantasy - sci fi setting. Using magic (psycic powers), monsters (tyrinids and MC), elves (eldar), halflings (squats and now ratlings), undead (necrons) and various other fantasy elements. The sword and ax are almost a must in these types of settings. GW seems to bounce back and forth looking for a balance between the two. Perhaps in 6th edition it will finally find the balance we have all been looking for. Or it will swing back to shooting via overcompensation as has been their m o.

Why carry a sword in modern combat? It doesn't work very well. However in this setting it does and must. So as game makers they have to account for that element. Creating the more hero like environment that fits with their setting.

For now it is a dynamic game change that you must simply compensate for or you will get swamped. The tau do have a harder time with this shift without some serious rethinking. I believe the key lies in mobility for them to adjust.

Just my 2 cents....

This is absolutely correct. GW want melee in the game so they make the rules make melee worth doing. The balance between melee and shooting only matters for Tau because they are terrible at melee. OTOH Tau static gunlines have never been a good tactic since shortly after Tau first came out when people learned how to deal with them.

Casper wrote:
I agree with the above statement - Nob with PK - 6" move + 6" WAAAGH! (w/Gaz or weirdboy or normal) + 6" charge = 18" of tank busting killin potentail. Idk how fast you are on foot there is no way you can still move as far as a vehicle going flat out (which cant shoot btw) and still fight. Period makes no since what so ever.

Stormboy Nob with the same powerklaw can get 24", and they aren't even allowed to Waaagh!

Of course, in the case of stormboyz, they DO have giant rockets attached to their backs.

Mabe static is not the best word i should have used. What I do is I find good cover for the FW and shoot away till something gets close and then i have to move (usually running away). I usually keep the fw within 8" of each other to give fire support. I JSJ whatever i can and I do use my fish. However I then tend to run out of boardspace.

I originally didn't want the discussion to turn to this but any advice would be nice.
Suits currently are plas/missle - leader bonding knife - and either multi tracker or target array
Other squad I experiment with (they are proxies) - usually do melta/plas with multi tracker. (deals with that pesky 3+ armor)

Another thing I have found with tau is that our "speadbumps" have issues lasting more than a turn. I run 12 and 16 kroot both with shapers and when they charge into melee i get a ton of attacks but they are so fragile that most bounce off my opponents armor, and then my kroot get slaughtered and sweped away. I have also tried gun drones to slow people down, but with the inability to really consistantly pin with shooting in 5th it hasn't worked well either.

My fw currently run 9 rifles and 3 carbines due to 4th's greater ability to pin, however now i look like an idiot doing that - probably going to get another box of fw and fix my issue there and put the carbines in a fish.

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

Janthkin wrote:

Redbeard wrote:But, keep in mind that the game is billed as a "Heroic Combat" game. Charging your opponent while waving your sword is clearly more heroic than sitting in a bunker with a machine gun, and so the game is designed to reward playing heroicly.

Pity all the armies aren't designed to reward such behavior.

The only one that really matters is. Come on, we all know that Warhammer 40,000 at its core is really Space Marine 40,000, and ultimately all the rules are just there to enable your noble space marines to scream baldly while they beat on squishy gribblies in a heroic fashion.

A trio of QFTs.

Frankly, I wouldn't be opposed to the predominance of powerful close-combat in 40k if they made it harder to pull off by requiring coordination of units for suppressive fire or the like.

Instead, the "tactic" of "running towards the enemy as fast as you can so you can punch them" is a valid, if not commonly accepted and generally game-winning, tactic.

You want to play a game that simultaneously requires actual use of tactics, and is still intense and fun? I would recommend the Combat Mission series (I prefer Barberossa to Berlin). Hell, if I became a billionaire, I would contract Battlefront and GW to make a similar game for 40k.

The CC-obsession does get pretty stupid when trying to play Tau. I love my army, but you have to admit that designing an army that ignores one whole phase of the game, the phase that happens to be the most "important" phase that the entire game is centered around, is pretty damn stupid. I hate having to run all the time or resort to hiding behind my skimmers in order to take out models.

But when you do win with them in this edition there is satifaction like no other.

@Casper, are you keeping record of how you did in these games. If not then start a war journal.
Try to note how you rolled, what squads you used against which of your opponents.
How long before you lost a unit and how?
What was left at end game?
How did you deploy vs how your opponent set up?
What type of terrain and how was it set up?
How did your opponent approach you? What were his tactics?
What were your target priorities? Whom did you target first? And why? And what did you use?(Big One for Tau)
Did you get rushed by to many units and end up spreading your fire to thin? Or ,did you "Focus your fire" on one point to punch an exit corridor?!
Critical assessment of yourself. Did you stay focused on the objectives? Or, did you get pulled out of position trying to finish off a squad?

Note whether there is improvement in your performance over time.

I'm not gonna fib to you. It got more difficult to win in this edition but its not impossible. Yes the game seems to favor those whom recieve a little bit of everything(coughSMscough,coughgreatHtHcough, coughBS4cough,coughassault2range24gunscough,cougharmorsave3+cough).
Seriously, if your hooked on the game then this will make you buy the next codex. It's not so much as favoring one style over the other than it is a profitable business model.

Multicharges can be downright dangerous now that everyone piles in. NOT multicharging has its own pretty obviou downside.

If this is Space Marine 40000, someone please tell me a good choppy SM build that doesn't involve Assault Terminators and Land Raiders, eh? Doesn't work against gunlines, that's for sure.

@Arctik, Doesn't have to be choppy. I have a friend who just won a local 1750 pt tourny with Templars set up to shoot.

He ran only 2 troops and dropped the rest of the points into speeders and tanks. His troops were of course in transports starting off surrounded by all the other vehicles.

He proved what I've been telling him about the fact that space marines can just sit back and out shoot the tau. He won the tournament by beating a Tau player in the final. Sitting back with more guns, higher ballistic skill, higher rates of fire, and equivalent armor values. Oh yeah forgot the S10 ordinance that pretty much equals a railgun.

It was not me. the guy he beat got me in the first round because on the first turn he got one of the two shield drones on my 2 tau broadside team causing a leadership test. Standing next to Shadowsun they broke (rolled 11) and walked off the table(rolled 10 when 9&7/8" from boardedge). End game this was the difference between win & lose(oh well):(.....

To answer the basic choppy question, a couple of drop pods into the Tau front lines with regular marines will also do the trick.

And the fact that you "have" access to Assault Termies and LandRaiders. You have those options. Some armies don't. I took the Tau because they were supposed to be a challenge and I love them for it. They keep me thinking.

Warhammer 40k favoring melee is a fallacy.

Warhammer 40k favors the guy who can throw a giant bucket of dice and force meaningful leadership tests.

As a corollary, both of these are more easily done by an assault-based army.

However, Marines are not "the guys" for exhibiting this. Orks are.

I did not read the responses, only to prevent from straying on my natural response.

However in my experience 5th edition favors good tactics in the MOVEMENT phase, which can lead to getting into charge range, but more importantly not being a legal target cause you are in H2H.

I think the game actually favors shooting now, and that means if you play movement right on 1 & 2 and have some gunz then you should be blowing the bloody hell out of it. (ala my marines!) OR if you move properly and avoid the Big Gunz then you should reach H2H and almost always since 2nd edition, things that don't have big guns, typically kill things with big gus in H2H (ala my marines dying in CC!)

so yeah, it's all about the movement phase.


I have played 25 games with my marines in 5th edition all 1500 or 1750 and from my record keeping I am

15wins - 6loses - 4draws.
(I never put up such a win % ever before!)

I have 3 draws against the same eldar player that uses as many guns as possibly, and one against orks.

all 6 loses are to shooty armies such as dark eldar, tau, and necrons, then i did keep demolished by daemons once!

most my wins, or the impressive ones anyhow were against orks, nids, and marines with terminators or assualt squads. I've been fielding 2 devastators squads of 7 marines (2 PC + 2ML each) and a ironclad with 2 hunter killer missles + hurricanes + HF, and a dread with ML + TLL and a 3rd dread with ML + PC
Troops are 10 guys in a razorback with TL-Assault Cannon on it, 10 guys with a lascannon and plasma gun, and 8 snipers with a HB for the hellfire ammo - then i run two solo speders with missles. And my single hq is a techmarine with conversion beamer. I try not to move after turn 1 except for the speeders because they can, and the razorback has a sgt with fist, and my dread always are moving to get the best shot possible, or screen the devastators.

So yeah... good luck getting into H2H, and when you do it will be your turn, you will win, I will combat tactics fall back - turn around on my turn and shoot you in the face. (thats so dirty)

So yes - mobility is key, and knowing what your doing with that movement phase makes or breaks every other thing you do and especially can dictate what your opponents options are (dont forget the set up / deployment phase, thats movement too..sort of)

now ill go read everybody elses opinion

Congratulations, GT, you beat armies who have to charge you while you have the following:

Better Weapons
Better Skills
Better Armor
Better Codex

The key to winning in 5th is HtH. You can literally get lucky enough to destroy hundreds of points of enemies by beating them by ONE in HtH. Sweeping advance is the absolute worst rule that exists in BOTH GW games.

I should not be able to do the following:
My outflanking unit of 8 Termagants with Spinefists comes in on your board edge and assaults your SM Devastator Squad.
Dice are rolled. I get reasonably lucky and inflict 2 wounds!
You have bad luck, and inflict only 1.
You fall back and I get a sweeping advance! I roll a 6! You can't match me!
50-ish points of Gaunts just wiped a what, 200 point squad?

Alternatively: Your Devastators fire everything at a full brood of Spinegaunts, and kill 12 of them.

Nothing else happens if they are in Synapse range. Nothing at all.

How does this not favor CC?

Arctik_Firangi wrote:Multicharges can be downright dangerous now that everyone piles in. NOT multicharging has its own pretty obviou downside.

If this is Space Marine 40000, someone please tell me a good choppy SM build that doesn't involve Assault Terminators and Land Raiders, eh? Doesn't work against gunlines, that's for sure.

The reason you use landraiders and assult terminators (and shrike) is exactly the point of this thread.

Too everyone preaching tau in this edition, you know the scores they put up at the bigger tournaments.. and you know they are dead.

sourclams wrote:Warhammer 40k favoring melee is a fallacy.

Warhammer 40k favors the guy who can throw a giant bucket of dice and force meaningful leadership tests.

As a corollary, both of these are more easily done by an assault-based army.

However, Marines are not "the guys" for exhibiting this. Orks are.

The problem is that melee is more decisive, and no it's not a fallacy. The problem with meaningful leadership tests is that they're all ones from melee. And for the most part, melee has more attacks than shooting.

I kill 3 Guardsmen in a shooting phase, they take a LD test. Big deal, right? I kill 3 Guardsmen in an assault phase and lose none of my own, now they're testing on LD 4, AND the other 7 of them will have a chance of being sweeping advanced.

Like I said, the charge rule is incredibly stupid. You move 6", and then you charge 6". Oh and if you do it right you can sweeping advance 6" or consolidate 6". Yes, if an Ork army does it right, on some nice rolling they can move around 24" in their movement and assault phases combined. Tell me that this isn't stupid, I dare you.

The charge rule and the sweeping advance rules both need changes.

And I'm not seeing where this huge shooting advantage is. Yes, I see more of the enemy now. Too bad they all get 4+ saves! Hurr! Might as well not waste my shots firing at them when 50% of them are deflected. :S

Unless you have an insane amount of shots you can put out (that actually mean something, for example my eventual 1500 point Eldar army will put out around 50 Str 6 shots per turn), you might as well go for assault because your army is effectively 50% neutered. Have fun! :S

Most units in the game cannot split shooting, but you can split assaults via multi-charge. Hitting Vehicles in rear armor means with weapons/wargear/abilities (Most of all dedicated assault units have a S of 5 or more on atleast 1 guy or rending) that can penetrate a vehicle and negating any sort of coversave.

Still the game has 12 assault phases and only 6 shooting phases. Even with consolidation, multi-charges have the potential to damage many squads and even if you do spread out it only divides your army against your opponent.

Vladsimpaler wrote:
Like I said, the charge rule is incredibly stupid. You move 6", and then you charge 6". Oh and if you do it right you can sweeping advance 6" or consolidate 6". Yes, if an Ork army does it right, on some nice rolling they can move around 24" in their movement and assault phases combined. Tell me that this isn't stupid, I dare you.

With great rolls, a Hormagaunt could move 30" in a round.

6" Move. 6" Run. 12" Charge. 6" Consolidation.

Maybe even 36" if another unit can charge in as well and the Hormies can manage to Pile In.

Vladsimpaler wrote:
Like I said, the charge rule is incredibly stupid. You move 6", and then you charge 6". Oh and if you do it right you can sweeping advance 6" or consolidate 6". Yes, if an Ork army does it right, on some nice rolling they can move around 24" in their movement and assault phases combined. Tell me that this isn't stupid, I dare you.

The charge rule and the sweeping advance rules both need changes.

And I'm not seeing where this huge shooting advantage is. Yes, I see more of the enemy now. Too bad they all get 4+ saves! Hurr! Might as well not waste my shots firing at them when 50% of them are deflected. :S

Unless you have an insane amount of shots you can put out (that actually mean something, for example my eventual 1500 point Eldar army will put out around 50 Str 6 shots per turn), you might as well go for assault because your army is effectively 50% neutered. Have fun! :S

Uh, it isn't stupid? In fact, I find it much better in 5th edition, as the rules make it easier for my units to break after losing melee and get cut down, giving me better control of what happens when I'm assaulted. Units can't charge into another unit as part of their massacre move, making it easier for the rest of my army to shoot them to pieces. The new shooting allocation rules make it much easier to take out special/heavy/power weapons, again assisting my shooting. The new template rules make template rules much better, so now those IG HQ units with 4 flamers are much better at shutting down assaulters than they used to.

The bigger change is that movement is even more important in 5th than it was in 4th, and it was more important in 4th than in 3rd. That, and kill points, negatively affect the game balance and dynamics much more for shooty armies (especially static ones) than the new assault rules.

The cover save rules haven't been that big an issue where I am...still plenty of open terrain, movement allows you to get the clear firing angles, and if the enemy tries to intermix units to get some sort of cover, they are asking to get flamed. In fact, you just mentioned how you're adjusting your list to accommodate the new ruleset....isn't that what's supposed to happen?

Grimaldi wrote:
Uh, it isn't stupid? In fact, I find it much better in 5th edition, as the rules make it easier for my units to break after losing melee and get cut down, giving me better control of what happens when I'm assaulted. Units can't charge into another unit as part of their massacre move, making it easier for the rest of my army to shoot them to pieces. The new shooting allocation rules make it much easier to take out special/heavy/power weapons, again assisting my shooting. The new template rules make template rules much better, so now those IG HQ units with 4 flamers are much better at shutting down assaulters than they used to.

Have you ever played against Orks? If a unit breaks (assuming they haven't been massacred) then that running unit will give a cover save to the enemy unit, assuming again that there are enough of them left.

Yes, I do agree that no consolidating into other units is a good thing. But really, the shooting allocation rules don't help THAT much. It's been a complete rarity for me, at least.

Yes templates are now better, I do agree with that. However, again, you're focusing all your firepower into that single assault squad, and I'd bet that it's not the only one. OOh look, I just focused 5 flamers onto that squad, they've been annihilated! Yeah, too bad there's more of them coming.

Unless you're just losing conscripts, even 1 squad annihilated is bad, especially when you now have a dedicated assault unit right in your space.

The bigger change is that movement is even more important in 5th than it was in 4th, and it was more important in 4th than in 3rd. That, and kill points, negatively affect the game balance and dynamics much more for shooty armies (especially static ones) than the new assault rules.

Moving isn't more important, but it is easier. I mean, you have squads running. They'll reach your lines in about 2 turns as opposed to maybe even 3 or 4. My chance at shooting up the enemy has been drastically cut. Personally, I don't know about you, but I'd love a 3rd or 4th turn at shooting Orks, but to each his own.

Kill Points, I don't use them so I can't comment there. (Yeah, my 16 kp Guard army is now SO much better now, compared to my friends' SW which only have like 8! I'm so going to PWN them!)

The cover save rules haven't been that big an issue where I am...still plenty of open terrain, movement allows you to get the clear firing angles, and if the enemy tries to intermix units to get some sort of cover, they are asking to get flamed. In fact, you just mentioned how you're adjusting your list to accommodate the new ruleset....isn't that what's supposed to happen?

I play with around ~25-30%, terrain. The cover save phenomenon seems to be different with everyone, so mileage definitely varies here. But cover saves are really prominent where I am.

Yes there's still open terrain, and yes sometimes you don't get cover saves. But melee is king in 5th edition, I'm sorry, but it is.

And asking to get flamed...you do realize that if you don't annihilate that squad that you're flaming, you're screwed, right? Yes, charging 30 Orks with 4 flamers...better hope that you have some nice rolls.

Finaly, yes, I have made accommodated to the new ruleset, and I agree that having to change the list around is a good thing but in this case it's not. Seriously, I designed the whole army around circumventing the 4+ cover save because it's what always bones me. I shouldn't have to design my army around one piddly rule. It's quite frankly stupid.

All right, I'm getting off of my

The difference in melee is that a small assault unit can wipe a large, shooty unit of equal points very quickly thanks to the rule about number of casualties on either side counting against your morale check. Shooting casualties don't do this.

The shooting unit needs to kill the assaulting unit at long range and takes time to do so. This has become harder thanks to more cover saves and faster movement by assaulters.

Because melee is more fun, to hear the crack of your enemy's skull shattering under your power fist, or the roar of a chain axe as it shreds flesh and bone.

Yeah melee is fun. The Tau tend to stay at a range though.

" think this is a red herring. Since you can no longer consolidate into fresh enemies, and since enemies break from combat so much easier, I don't think you get much of an advantage here anymore. When you add in that you have to get close enough to assault, I think that you generally get less active assault phases than you get shooting phases. The differences are more that CC is more decisive. "

That is the most profound observation in this thread. Speed bumps (cheap troop units or many slightly more expensive all multipurpose troop units) and a mechanized manuver element seem to be the answer for Tau and Eldar in take all comers list in this edition.

Ironically, the answer is the same for IG too but you actually manuver your infantry on the ground using infiltrate doctrines and maybe cameloline. I have seem it all work extremely well - usually to my detriment

The gunline (at least the way most people played it in 4th) is dead. Hallelujah.

You can't really say that close combat or shooting alone is strongest. The best armies are balanced and can adapt to whatever is the situation in hand. I would rather have a mobile army that can lay down a lot of dakka and jump on objectives early in the game. Let the assault army come in towards my line. They will take losses from my heavy firepower and have to get through or around my armor before they can engage my troops. This means I can counter attack and have the charge bonus, so now assault is working for me, not my opponent.

G

Mobility beats horde everytime, its when they do both that you are completely and utterly screwed.

All it is is a manner of moving.

Mobility can beat a horde as long as there is room to manoeuvre and time to use shooting to beat it down.

And assaulters typically have greater mobility that isn't hindered by ingress/egress or reduction in range. Funny how it all works out.

Kilkrazy wrote:Mobility can beat a horde as long as there is room to manoeuvre and time to use shooting to beat it down.

Hmm, 180 Ork boys running at you....done right, that's a wall of troops running at you.

It's like being caught in a room with no windows/doors/any means of escape, and having all of the walls close in on you. It's only a matter of time.