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stonefox wrote:"Push your models towards the other guy and squish them together when they touch" isn't really more fun than static gunlines.

thats as good as saying. my line of models is looking at your models from a distance.

The alternative to melee isn't and has never been only static gunlines.

Tau have always performed best using mobility and firepower. To the point that some people regard Mech Tau as cheesy.

Kilkrazy wrote:The alternative to melee isn't and has never been only static gunlines.

Tau have always performed best using mobility and firepower. To the point that some people reghaard Mech Tau as cheesy.

Mabe in my OP I shouldn't have said static...mabe footslog would have been better.

I play tau empire (so kroot, footslogging fire wars, pathfinders, suits of all kinds with tank support), I just feel that since breaking moral via shooting was removed it has cripled tau (and guard) armies like mine.

Tau can still be slightly cometative via mech (fish of fury) and farseight onclave.

Kilkrazy wrote:The alternative to melee isn't and has never been only static gunlines.

Tau have always performed best using mobility and firepower. To the point that some people regard Mech Tau as cheesy.

Yep, but too bad we no longer get as much of a benefit from jump-shoot-jump and, just like in 4th, it takes us 2-3 entire squads in devilfish firing at full rapid fire to wipe out even one marine squad. For orks it downs 10 per full rapid firing squad...when at least 50 others are coming. It's just not efficient enough.

Silghtly off-topic)Have you ever noticed how the 40k galaxy has been yin/yanged. Eye of terror/hadex anomoly, Tau in relation to IG stronghold of home worlds, and one side is imperial domination the other has alien civilizations.

On-topic) IMHO I believe in codex creep, its how you get everyone to buy the new models. So, I think that its just a matter of being patient.

This Yin&Yang that I percive in the 40k galaxy makes me think we will know the direction the Tau are going to take when the new IG codex comes out.

Just remeber that if you can consistently win with what is not considered a strong army. Its a lot more satisfying.

5th Ed does favor melee and to be more specific, armies with respectable CC troop choices.

Orks for cost and T4, Marines for being hard to wound, CSM because they have all their dedicated troop options. While any elite CC unit will dominate a Troop choice in CC, the point of 2 out of 3 games is troops getting control or maintaining control of objectives. In 5th, low initiative, low AC spells doom.
Low AC because your pricey combat troops will be shot up before they get there, low initiative runs the risk of being overwhelmed in a combat rather than just running away. (Ask your necron friends how they feel when a wraithlord charges a big squad of necron warriors... 2 dead, fail an 8 Ld role and then dice off with your awesome I 2 vs an I 4 wraithlord.) Gone are gaunt and guardian hordes... the numbers don't save you they just put you at risk of losing more points in one combat.

Add to it that 2 out of 3 deployments put opponents within 18" instead of 24" and again ranged fire is lessened in importance.

While I think you need a mix and pure CC armies will find it hard to win, firepower puts you in a position to affect the critical close combats a turn or 2 before they occur but CC is the decisive element. The removal of consolidation is the only positive to firepower but it makes avoiding multi-unit charges imperative.

5th edition favors hand to hand so much because its an odd edition of the rules and they always favor hand to hand. The even editions favor shooting. So if you want to go back to a shooting army, just wait for 6th edition.

And yet ... Biker Mobs, Lootas, and Shoota Boyz (not Slugga Boyz) are the stand-out monsters of the dominant Ork lists.

Bikers give you less melee for more maneuver.
Shootas give you less melee for more shooting.
Lootas aren't supposed to get into melee at all.

The Assault Phase is excellent for closing out units due to the morale issues, but good armies can't neglect shooting and maneuvering. That's why Orks stomp so hard and "Nids have done so poorly lately.

The wrapping-units issue with Orks is a real issue, though. The Adepticon Rules regarding that issue should really be the standard for handling that issue: the closer unit doesn't get cover from the other unit. If you just have to deal with the 5+ cover save from the Kustom Force Field rather than the 4+ save from wrapped units I think Orks become a step or two more balanced.

- Marty Lund

DAaddict wrote:5th Ed does favor melee and to be more specific, armies with respectable CC troop choices.

Orks for cost and T4, Marines for being hard to wound, CSM because they have all their dedicated troop options. While any elite CC unit will dominate a Troop choice in CC, the point of 2 out of 3 games is troops getting control or maintaining control of objectives. In 5th, low initiative, low AC spells doom.

This is almost directly contradictory. Orks have a bad initiative, everything goes at the same speed as necros, except on charges, when they come up to 3s and 4s. Slugga boyz are still respectable, but the units I always heard people claiming are broken are ALL shooty units. Bike Boyz, Lootas, etc. I never hear anything about the lowly choppa boy.....

Phoenix wrote:5th edition favors hand to hand so much because its an odd edition of the rules and they always favor hand to hand. The even editions favor shooting. So if you want to go back to a shooting army, just wait for 6th edition.

Riggghhhtttt..... the RT (edition 1) rules sucked for hand to hand, in my group we just ignored them, because nobody really got there anything, they were dead before they crossed the field. Back then it was still fairly serious about being a sci-fi game, so a LOT of a variety came from the detail in the various shoot weapons. If GW wanted to make things interesting, without making melee a huge part of the game, adding more detailed and varied shooty weapons is the way to go. Anyway, I don't remember melee getting big until 3rd edition with the blud angels (hur!) and the rhino rush armies.....

Mattlov wrote:I should not be able to do the following:
My outflanking unit of 8 Termagants with Spinefists comes in on your board edge and assaults your SM Devastator Squad.
Dice are rolled. I get reasonably lucky and inflict 2 wounds!
You have bad luck, and inflict only 1.
You fall back and I get a sweeping advance! I roll a 6! You can't match me!
50-ish points of Gaunts just wiped a what, 200 point squad?

Alternatively: Your Devastators fire everything at a full brood of Spinegaunts, and kill 12 of them.

Well, in that case, it's a good thing you can't do that then. And They Shall Know No Fear prevents Sweeping assault.

In fact, I find that most armies have ways to work to prevent Sweeping Assaults, if you use sound tactics.

stonefox wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:The alternative to melee isn't and has never been only static gunlines.

Tau have always performed best using mobility and firepower. To the point that some people regard Mech Tau as cheesy.

Yep, but too bad we no longer get as much of a benefit from jump-shoot-jump and, just like in 4th, it takes us 2-3 entire squads in devilfish firing at full rapid fire to wipe out even one marine squad. For orks it downs 10 per full rapid firing squad...when at least 50 others are coming. It's just not efficient enough.

Yeah, it's a lot harder to win these days for tau. The suits just can't pull it off any more alone, and the tau need to move out to score which is not their strongpoint.

I do kinda wish GW would just rewrite Tau from the ground up like they're doing for DE...except not taking 10+ years to do it of course.

The foundation of the army is fine, it's a highly mobile high firepower army that is delicate. It's the opposite number to the supposedly immobile but numerous and tough IG. It just needs a skirmisher unit that doesn't take up a troops slot. It needs a lot of little fixes, not an overhaul.

@Shuma QFT

Kilkrazy wrote:

Mort wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:The morale point is the key thing.

If a target squad that takes casualties had to take a morale check at -1Ld for each casualty, then shooting would be a lot more effective without any other changes.

Or a decent compromise might be instead of a regular morale/break test -1LD for each casualty, make it a pinning test (w/-1 each casualty) instead?

Could be. I wasn't trying to present a fully worked out solution. Just illustrating the point that melee easily causes massive morale breaks and shooting doesn't.

Same here - just tossing out random thoughts for discussion-sake.

I guess in the minds of the designers, having the enemy up-close and personal is a lot more terrifying than having them filling the air with ranged-death from a distance.

For giggles, I wonder if anyone's ever tried a game with the break-test modifiers for shooting?

Mort wrote:

For giggles, I wonder if anyone's ever tried a game with the break-test modifiers for shooting?

I have really wanted to however I haven't quite figured out a fair way to do so yet.

Started a thread in Proposed rules about making shooting and assults equal, but nobody has responded yet. So here is the link. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/226460.page

Make them the same as the assault rules excpet instead of Sweeping Advance if they fail an initiatvie check make them go to ground. That will stop most assaulters in their tracks unless they be fearless at which point add extra wounds for being so stupid as to walk into a firestorm.