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Beastman Superherd

Beast Herd ...basically you're A MASSIVE unit of skirmishers which can gain a rank bonus up to a max of +2 ... Ungors soak up wounds from shooting ... you spread out and can Charge Multiple units ... when you charge the ungor fall back and the gor and commanders move to the front...

failings ... these guys are core choice and so a bit weak ... but they're sooo cheap 7pt gor 4pt ungor you can have more then one...

must have equipment
Vitriolic Totem 25pts - every attacks counts as poisoned attacks
Staff of Darkoth 25pts - the wild call (9+ cast) - cast on a beast herd, bestigor or warhounds unit within 12" and within its normal charge range of an enemy. the unit may declare and make a normal charge move immediately, though the charged unit may only stand as a reaction.
Pelt of the dark young 25pts - 6+ scaly skin + magic Resistance (1) to any unit joined
Optional(but a great way to deal with dragons)
Rune of the true beast 30pts -Ridden monsters, lone monsters, the steeds pulling chariots, cavalry mounts and swarms may never direct their attacks at a model bearing the rune of the true beast

Version B
if you take Morghur 378pts, Bestigors (12pts) become raiders ... these guy are very strong for a core unit with a hand weapon, great weapon & heavy armour...
Can take a mark of chaos ...
Mark of Nurgle 50pts - cause fear
Mark of slaanesh 20pts immune to psychology

40kenthusiast wrote:Beastman superherd? Tell me more...

Imagine this: really (x2) big herd of Gors and lots (x2) of Ungors. 4 characters. One Tzeentch Beastlord, one Tzeentch Wargor BSB, and 2 Shaman that are either Tzeentch or Undivided with Beasts. Add Power Stones to taste. Perhaps a magic banner such as the formerly available Blasted Standard or the formerly available Standard of Wrath. Add other magic items which I don't know. Generate 12+ PD per turn. Destroy opponent via over whelming Tzeentch magic. When opponent charges you rank up and the Lord slaughters whatever is in front of him with the Wargor BSB on the assist. Oh, and did I mention that all Tzeentch characters (and perhaps 1 undivided shaman) are protected by various assorted (formerly available) suits of magic armor and possibly enchanted shields? What would you do to hide your 10 levels of magic in a massive horde of 4 pt pincushions that is T3 vs. shooting but T4 once you hit combat, in the front rank anyway?

Unfortunately, the superherd has fallen on hard times. Beastmen have been getting quite the beating with the GW Nerf Stick (TM) since 7th. Their Raiders ability only allows them to form a minimum rank of 4, so anything smaller than Brettonian Lance that charges them--a Giant, Chariot, etc--will not force them to form up into usable ranks, meaning that the superherd, instead of getting the Big 4--maximum of 2 ranks--will only get the Big 2. On top of that, all the useful magic armor required to keep the characters safe when the inevitable charge came was in the now defunct hordes of Chaos book, save a single suit of Chaos armor.

Hard times indeed.

EDIT: And I'm beaten to the punch by someone with a superior post no less.

This is an extreme example, I know...

For some time, my two siblings have been discussing the merits (points be damned) of using a 100 zombie unit in a VC army.

If this were to hit a boni-fide DS unit, would the DS essentially be finished for the rest of the game? The zombies will never run and can be replenished.

ZF-

Basically yeah. The DS kills roughly 10 zombies a turn (random guess based on 3 heroes + Lord + troop), thus winning by like 12. This might get them out about halfway through the game, but not if the unit if being constantly replenished.

Well, the zombies are going to outnumber, and they have ranks - so even with 10 kills, that's a CR of +10 - that's about 4-5 turns, and you have to figure 1-2 turns to get to the unit - so basically if you refill the Zombie unit once, it should survive the whole game

Great article 40k, enjoyed reading your thoughts on the DS. I like your character designations especially, will have to adopt those I think.

I wanted to write my own Tactica: Deathstar article a couple years ago, when I spent 6 months proxying 1000 point DS lists. Admittedly you can do a LOT less DS in 1000 point games, but we were playing online with paint and dice rollers and 1000 pointers move fast. I set myself a couple specific rules too:
- DS should be 40mm 'monstrous infantry' (speed, toughness + wounds, attaks, fear)
- Characters should be on 40mm bases if possible (monstrous mounts or monstrous characters)

The intent there was look & feel in addition to pure fast-breaking, as I tend to play with the overall look in mind, proxing with digital squares or not! But there were some considerations as noted, with big infantry getting highish move and good wounds / attaks per model. At 1000 points you actually have the DS unit do some killing

My favorite Deathstar that I've run might be the Ogre Gunstar (pistol maneaters + tenderizer tyrant + BSB + butcher(s) for buffs / siegebreaking), with its wealth of special abilities, enormous attak potential and pretty mean shooting if you need to reach out and blast somebody. A guy on TWF is running a Trollstar of Throgg + 9 chaos trolls, which is all kinds of cool, though it could be a better DS with BSB (ward against shooting banner to help against fire) and such. Gazzor's (or whoever first made it) Shadestar does deserve some props I think, pretty terrifying. And a final shout out, the potential of the VC Gravestar almost made me jump on with the vamps. Grave guard w/ banner of the borrows + wight w/ regen banner + killy, dansey vamps (and/or an orbiting vamp on helm & invoke duties) is definitely attractive. Thankfully the act of playing vamps isn't

A final bit of a side note, only vaguely related to DS. The two times I've played against orcs & gobs @ 2000 points I've lost because I redirected and ignored my opponents' big block of black orcs + warboss + BSB. I killed loads of supporting units but since I didn't tackle the blorcstar it came down to a minor orc win both times.

- Salvage

I was thinking about the Ogre thing myself, been playing Ogres recently. There's a lot to like about it.

I still dig my Bloodcrusher thing, be interesting to compare that and the Ogre gunstar, but I'd need my dexes for the points values. My money's on the Crushers though.

Oh aye, your juggerstar is pretty frightening. The MR, 7" move, hatred, ward and insane characters are all very very nice things for a DS. Crushers themselves I've not been impressed with when playing against them, but this DS build pushes your point that the unit itself isn't all that important beyond being tough.

- Salvage

JoeOrks wrote:In case anyone is interested...I am going to be starting a "best deathstar" thread.

Also, List of things that consistently beat deathstars

Wood elves.
Tomb kings.
Skaven, Clan Skryre specifically.
Empire Artillery
Dwarf Artillery
Terrain
Board edges

Tomb kings? please elaborate.

One thing that i think people have missed is a skirmishing deathstar, what about a massive unit of say, dark elf shades?, i dont have to dex on me at the moment but i dont think there is a maximum unit size, the amount of shots that a unit that big could put out is staggering, and if the have great weapons they will also hurt in close combat, just thinking about that type of army makes me shudder.
what do you guys think??

In the "Best Deathstar Thread" someone mentioned a huge unit of Shades. Hits hard but could go down to a heavily armored hammer unit.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

40kenthusiast wrote:I dunno, but I doubt GW is that aware of army building trends. I'd imagine its just customary for infantry units to have max sizes. Seems like infantry is always 5-XX, while cav/monsters are typically X+.

I disagree, with the release of the recent WoC and Lizardmen books GW have shown they are watching army list compositions at GT and trying to balance out the power game builds (Hounds now no longer count towards core and Skink Army of Death now no longer as powerfull.

I have never gone for the DS approach, is to much like power gaming. And as a result generally find I can beat an opponent who does.

My empire rarely has any cavalry, and is generally made up of state troops with a unit of greatswords, and of course the obligatory artillary. I never put a charachter in my greatswords, Instead will always shore up weker units with a charachter. My tactic when facing DS units, canon, canon, more canon, a morter or 2 and in a 3000 point game anything up to 80 hand gunners, maybe more.

With my HE, Yes there are always slightly more special units in the army (only cos it is the army make up). Now my HE lists are the opposite of my empire, probably a subconcious thing to stop me getting bored, so i have no shooting in a HE army, nadda, nothing, not even a bolt thrower. Instead, always fill out core with 25 strong units of Spearmen, one of which holds the general the other the BS bearer, largesh (18) unit of lion warriors, small (7 or 8) unit of swordmasters, and then a small unit of dragon princes for manouvering for a flank charge in suport of the spearmen. if I am going to take a 4thrd special unit,then is either a second unit of LW, or the phoenix guard. If Phoenix guard then I usually go for 25 (just for the fear advantage)

Again my tactic vs the ds unit, WHite lions, always hitting first, with great weaopns means you lose only a couple a turn against even the hardest unit. And stubborn means they just sit there, I then generally manouver myself for the flank attack. Or I just use the HE speed and avoid them.

My skaven, even easier. I take 3 or 4 unts of globadiers, minimum size, watch your opponents face when the first 4 units you place = 12 models, of no real significanse, and fast enough to redeploy in turn 1. Then followed up by 3 units of slaves, Generallly I then get to place the rest of my army knowing exactly where his ds unit is, and depending on what it is means I either stick my rattling guns to deal with it, or I again out flank it with my superior movement, again, Skaven army, the closest I come to a DS unit, sometimes unit of stormvermin, with BS with banner of the swarm, and a warbanner in the unit BS sits at the back, Unit has a natural Combat strentgth of +8 without a dice being rolled., But no special charachters i it (maybe an engineer, but more to do with where the unit is placed and whats in front of it).

Generally I think latest ed warhammer has got away from the whole ds unit thing. The Herohammer of old is no more, and charachters are alot more vulnerable, I have yet to see a DS player, beat a compotent balanced player. The eggs in one basket syndrome is just to big. I have actually had one opponenet complain because over a 6 turn game his DS unit got charged in turn 5 (was the first time it got into combat) and it was on the flank where none of his charachters could affect the result.

This I feel is the biggest problem with a ds unit, if your opponenet has a modigum of tacticle nous he will counter it, not with a bigger stronger unit, but instead by isolating it, avoiding it, and using superior numbers in other parts of the battlefield.

Ozymandias wrote:In the "Best Deathstar Thread" someone mentioned a huge unit of Shades. Hits hard but could go down to a heavily armored hammer unit.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

problem though, no rank bonus, and does not negate ranks, no matter how big,

Ginric, you don't seem to get the ds approach.

First off, you flat out can't fight a DS without another one, or a heck of a hammer. A white lion unit will get straight out run over. A typical DS hands out roughly 10 wounds a round at high s, and takes virtually none in return. It's unfightable without equivalent nonsense.

Further, the statement that you'll isolate the DS and win through superior numbers in other portions of the battle begs the question, what other portions of the battle? Aside from some chump core in hiding there is NOTHING ELSE on the battlefield. One giant Cav unit racing around slaughtering, and naught else.

Right now, there are three major counterbalances to the Deathstar army.

1) MR Nerf- The targeting vageries of the last FAQ make MR (and Ring of Hotek) a lot less reliable against things like Pit of Shades and/or Black Horror, which absolutely destroy Deathstar units.

2) Infernal Gateway- Autoloss if this spell works, and its in virtually every competitive WoC build right now.

3) Siren Trap- The DoC Siren power can completely screw the DS (most are psych proof and cannot avoid charging) by sucking it into a fight away from the rest of the army where it ends up getting double flanked, or worse. This is especially brutal against elven DS.

I am not saying that the DS is done, but there are commonly used counters out there that people are incorperating into their lists. Point sinking, however, is here to stay.

Errr...I think you might have misunderstood the tenor of the thread.

DS isn't a dominant, or even relatively competative army style. Certainly it isn't so strong that only certain spells can counter it. I haven't heard of a DS army winning any tournament. It is, at this point, an abstract forum discussion.

VC Dogstar won the Baltimore GT I believe.

Dogstar? What's that?

Sounds like a huge unit of Dire Wolves, probably with a Vampire with the Lycni Talisman. Don't know if that would really classify as a Deathstar since you can only have one character and no BSB.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

What are the DSs? There is basically one per army, I believe.

Lizards: Templeguardstar

Dwarfs: hammerstar

VC: Bloodknightstar
Dogstar?
??

DE: Shadestar

HE: ??

WE: Eternalstar

Stubborn: Useful but only really useful if the unit itself has a minimum Ld9. Sure ld8 stubborn is good in general play but there is too big a risk of breaking of a mega unit.

I would not risk deathstar unless able to make a unit unbreakable or guarantee a Ld9 or preferably 10 roll.

Undead: Instead of all this quality you could go raw quantity and damn the (non magic) defences. Units of literally hundreds of zombies come to mind. Especially if you forgo max rank bonus (you will be constantly losing combats anyway) in favour of extending your line of undead accross the width of the tabletop.
What is nasty here is the relocation of the vampires in the unit, who for all intents and purposes teleport around the unit slaughtering select opponents in combat.

How about a Plaguestar - a massed unit of Plaguebearers with two Palanquin Heralds and Skulltaker in the front rank? (Yes, you can take Skulltaker in Plaguebearers, he's technically not a Herald of Khorne. Cheesy but true.) The enemies all strike last all the time, face something like eighteen poisoned attacks (all of which grant an additional +1 CR if they aren't saved), Skulltaker striking first can strike fear into almost every character's hearts, and if you win the combat even by one, you'll break the foe due to being a massive, scary unit.

Ozymandias wrote:Sounds like a huge unit of Dire Wolves, probably with a Vampire with the Lycni Talisman. Don't know if that would really classify as a Deathstar since you can only have one character and no BSB.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

If memory serves, it was a buncha dire wolves, plus all 4 characters (mounted) in the unit...Including regen BSB.

Ouch , i an see why that won the tourne, but i still hink that the shade deathstar could work wonders, if you have say 50 shades in one unit, that is 100 crossbow shots every turn, and you can keep them out of combat so they will not suffer from the ranks issues

I think one of thing that also needs to be mentioned is that the term deathstar might bring to mind ideas of 'autopilot'. I think that's far from the case, most times, putting all your eggs in one basket means that you need to be even more adept at using that basket! In other words, I've never seen an army like this do well in real life, though they may appear to be awesome on paper. That's because (imo) most generals wouldn't know how to actually run an army like this.

Deathstar theory would need to be about more then just unit building. It also has to be about how to use those units. It's not just point and click.

Deathstar based armies that have won rescent tournaments:

Vegas '08-
HE Dragon Prince DS unit (10 with BSB combat res banner, 3 RBTs, a Dragon, and minimal other units) won overall.

Baltimore '08-
Best General went to a Doggie Deathstar VC army (giant dog unit w 4 characters including Regen BSB) and the second highest battle points went to a virtually identical army.

LA Gamesday 08-
Nurgle Deathstar won handily overall.

Thats three tournaments I can recall in rescent memory. Since the WoC release, overall has been going to /drumroll WoC armies built around Infernal Gateway wrecking other people's Deathstars.

40kenthusiast:

Have you considered posting this in the article section? You can always edit it later.

Doggie Deathstar: How does that work? just keep taking wounds and not
breaking? You have no static, maybe two for the banners and 1 for outnumber.

I've never made an article before. I'll give it a stab, could be cool.

Edit: http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/Analysis_of_Deathstar_Theory

Thanks for posting it. I edited in some changes.