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Ghaz wrote:

The first thing players need to do when arranging a game is to decide what points limit they are going to use. For example, they may agree to play a 1,000 points game, in which case the total value of all models in each player force must come to 1,000 points or less (it will often be a few points short, but it still counts as a 1,000 points game).

So a in a '1,000 point game' you use '1,000 point armies'.

Ghaz, read your quote again. No where in that quote does it define that playing a 1000pt game is the exact same as using a 1000pt army. No where.

The rule states that if you play a 1000pt game, you are limited to 1000pts.
It says that if you bring a 900pt army, you are still playing a 1000pt *game*
No where does it say that if you bring a 900 pt army, you are playing with a 1000pt army.

Read the last parenthetical statement again, it does *not* say that you count as having a 1000pt army, it says you count as still playing a 1000pt game.

What rule are you using that defines than any army in a 1000pt game, is in fact a 1000pt army?

The entire page talks about how an an army of X points is not how many points you spend, but what points limit you agree on. from page 86 of the Warhammer 40,000 5th edition rulebook:

No, the entire page talks about how an *game* of 1000pts is not how many points you spend, but what points you limit you agree to. You need to find a rule that equates the terms Game and Army.

Neither 4th edition nor 5th edition refer to the concept of army sizes and instead refer to point limits for games. Therefore, army sizes are a discontinued game mechanic just like target priority tests, outnumbering in close combat and minor psychic powers.

Not a bad argument. But that means that you can take them in *any* size army, since there is no "army size" anymore.

I don't think it's even a "yes technically" scenario. If you're playing a 1500 point game, then by definition the armies you're using are going to be 1500 point armies.

Ah, and there is the rub. Can you provide the rule that gives that definition? The one Ghaz keeps pointing out only deals with the size of a 'game', not the 'army'.



Lets simpify:
We can all agree on several things.
1) You can pick a limit for the size of the armies (lets say 1500pts)
2) This means you are playing a "1500 point game"
3) You can not bring a 1600 pt army to this game.
4) If you bring a 1400pt army to this game, you are still playing a "1500 pt game"

The only bone of contention is:
5)If you play a 1500 point game, and bring a 1400pt army, is that the same as bringing a 1500 point army?

Not following my own advice:

Common Sense interpretation (not RaW)

1400 points is not the same as 1495 points for the purposes of army size.

1495 is because you can't find anywhere to spend 5 points - your army list doesn't make it possible. (though normally you could FIND something like grenades or a grot oiler etc to spend the points)

1400 is because you either don't have enough models or have CHOSEN to be under for some obscure reason. In some circumstances this might even be an advantage, for example in an annihilation game 'cos everything that cheap is ineffective against your chosen opponent and you don't want to hand over free kill points.

I suppose someone might be trying to prove they can beat a 1500 points army with 1000 points, in which case they SHOULD follow the restrictions of a 1000 point army, even if there opponent is not.

The rulebook talks about being a few points short as still counting as that size, not being a few dozen or a few hundred under.

coredump wrote:Ghaz, read your quote again. No where in that quote does it define that playing a 1000pt game is the exact same as using a 1000pt army. No where.

And yet again from page 86 of the Warhammer 40,000 5th edition rulebook:

... For example, they may agree to play a 1,000 points game, in which case the total value of all models in each player force must come to 1,000 points or less..."

If you agree to a 1,000 point game, you have a force (a.k.a army) of a 1,000 points or less. Now how about taking care of the gaping holes in your own argument instead of nitpicking a minor flaw in somebody else's argument for a change.

Ghaz wrote:If you agree to a 1,000 point game, you have a force (a.k.a army) of a 1,000 points or less. Now how about taking care of the gaping holes in your own argument instead of nitpicking a minor flaw in somebody else's argument for a change.

The special characters say that an army of X amount of points or more is required to take them. So if you take less than X, would you still be allowed to take them even if X was the agreed upon points limit.

This discussion is not about how you would play the game. Everyone of course knows that 1499 is good enough for 1500, and you most of the time can't find a way to spend the odd point. However, this discussion is an exercise into what the RAW actually says, and it's interesting to discuss the rules in this context, for the purpose of finding holes that may lead to arguments over the course of a game. It's very possible that two different interpretations of a rule such as this could exist in different gaming circles, and it could be very frustrating travelling between them and attempting to play even a friendly game.

So basically, all you whining that Flav is "TFG" for suggesting this kind of thing, this discussion does not concern you in the least.

And again, yes you would because if you agree to a 1,500 point game, then you have a 1,500 point army.

Ghaz wrote:

... For example, they may agree to play a 1,000 points game, in which case the total value of all models in each player force must come to 1,000 points or less..."

If you agree to a 1,000 point game, you have a force (a.k.a army) of a 1,000 points or less. Now how about taking care of the gaping holes in your own argument instead of nitpicking a minor flaw in somebody else's argument for a change.

That rule states that if you are playing a 1000pt game, then you must have an (army) of 1,000 pts or less. I agree 100%. If you have a 900pt army, you can still play in the 1000pt game. But if you have a 900pt army, that is *not* the same as having a 1000pt army.

Now, instead of conflating the words 'army' and 'game' for the third (fourth?) time, can you find an actual rule that says having a 900pt army is the same as having a 1000pt army? Again, not that you can use it in a 1000pt game, we all agree to that. But that it is the same (or even counts as) having a 1000pt army. *Army* being the key word here.

Now how about taking care of the gaping holes in your own argument instead of nitpicking a minor flaw in somebody else's argument for a change.

I have laid out my argument in detail. Detail which you have ignored.... while you claim there are gaping holes. Now c'mon ghaz, you are the King of RAW, so please, find the rule....

And again, yes you would because if you agree to a 1,500 point game, then you have a 1,500 point army.

Now you just need a rule to actually support that claim and you will be correct.....

To get a Kids meal, you must be under 10yrs old. So both the 9 and 8 yr old can take part.... but being 8 is not the same as being 9.

And I see yet again you've not covered the gaping holes in your own argument. Never once is an army defined by the points spent, but by the points agreed upon for the game. Those are the gaping holes your argument never touches upon.

The 'game' itself does not have any 'points' except for those that the armies involved use. A '1,500 point game' literally means that the armies being used in the game are 1,500 ponts each. The rules make that abundantly clear. Nothing in your arguments has the least bit of support from the rules that a '1,500 point army' means anything other than what I keep saying that it does. There is nothing else that it could mean that can be supported by the rules in the least.

Fifty: Ad Hominem and "common sense" arguments don't have any value in RAW discussions. Calling me names doesn't address my arguments, and anybody can claim anything as common sense.

Ghaz: You're just reiterating your original bald assertion and pointing to page 86 without actually quoting anything. Saying that the "rules make it abundantly clear" without any support is a statement of opinion that I don't agree with.

If you really think you have a case for the assertion that "A '1,500 point game' literally means that the armies being used in the game are 1,500 ponts each," then show me the sound argument using quotes from page 86 that leads you to this conclusion. I've shown you my sound argument; if you don't have one, then just admit it.

And all you're doing is being a troll. You've not once presented anything to support your claims, nor have you provided any sort of alternative that you even think is supported by the rules. All you've done is say that I'm wrong, yet you won't support your claims with the rules. I'm done with this one-sided 'conversation.

This argument isn't helping the OP at all.

Locking thread.