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Hellhounds are amazing! I use three in my gaurd list and they always shine. You must not be using them to best effect.

A tank that virtually never misses, can move and shoot is ar12 all around and is cheap....what do you want?

Even against MEQ's its still a great vehicle, against any 4+ save or worse army it is absolute murder. They can wipe out squads in a go.

Great, great tank.

Maybe you arent using enough tanks? If all you have is a hellhound its dead meat, take 3 demolishers and 3 hellhounds, the hounds will make it through the game.


Like grimaldi said also, the drop tropping jungle fighter squad with a flamer heavy flamer is righteous, I have been using those for years and they never fail to have a big impact on a game.

Sorry, didn't read your reply mid thread. If you run three russes and 2 hellhounds and they suck for you, you are doing something wrong.

I run mine in a staggered line, the demos and russes slightly ahead of the hounds so that they have a very limited LOS to and from the enemy. Or, I move them in a wedge with the Demo on point, givine everyone a save or cutting them off from LOS.

These tanks absolutely rock, they can put enough wounds on squads to force checks on sarge's, special and heavy weapons, etc. They also nuke any non power armor units in enormous quantities. I have them wipe out squads of aspect warriors, tau, orks etc in one shot routinely, or gut them to the point where they are no longer a threat.

I honestly would never put a guard table on the board with less than 2 of them, ever. Thay are just far too useful.

With the new rules coming out, it looks like Chimers will be pretty cheap, you can always screen them.

Try switching up your tactics before writing off the tank. If your opponant blows it up right away, start it out behind russes, then on turn one move them up to fire, use your imagination. If you cant find a use for the inferno cannon in your army, then I just don't know what to tell you.

sourclams wrote:Drive your tanks like this:
_H
HRH
_R
_R

It forms a cross with three Leman Russes as the stem and Hellhounds at the limbs.

Now your Hellhounds command more than half the board and your Russes have a 3+ cover save from anything in the front arc. You've also got 6 significant template and blast slinging tanks for something like 800 points.

I'll give this a shot, I can't say that I have tried it yet.

Lord Solar Plexus wrote:That sounds iffy at best. They can see the turret, ergo they can see a part of the facing side. I don't think you draw LoS to the hull only.

Actually I'm pretty sure that's how it works.

Reecius wrote:I run mine in a staggered line, the demos and russes slightly ahead of the hounds so that they have a very limited LOS to and from the enemy. Or, I move them in a wedge with the Demo on point, givine everyone a save or cutting them off from LOS.

These are actually the exact tactics that have been failing me!

Reecius wrote:Try switching up your tactics before writing off the tank.

Allright. I'm going to try some odd tank patterns, like the aforementioned cross, and even hiding the buggers in back at start and wheeling them out to attack entrenched positions but I'm still highly reluctant to deal with them due to the abysmal killing power they have demonstrated in past games.
I should have 3-5 games in by sunday night and I'll take full battle reports on each as well as post abbreviated results focusing on the hellhounds impact in this thread. My opponents will be orks, eldar, sisters, necrons and chaos deamons this week if all of my games take place as scheduled. These games will be played with an 1,850 point list.

For smaller lists and against a primarily MEQ metagame you can attempt to use 2 Hellhounds (saving points for anti MEQ stuff) and place them in an 'L' shape with your line of Russes tilted at an angle. So it would look like a straight line of Russes capped off with the L-shape of front-to-end/side Hellhounds. This capitalizes on Hellhound side armor 12 while remaining an effective screen from front arc and one major flank.

Outflankers pose a much greater threat than the front-on/side-on setup, but you should be able to achieve the same result; incredibly resilient armored fortress capable of annihilating any grouped infantry.

Junior Officer __40
Heavy Lascannon Support + sharpshooters doctrine __120
Inquisitor Lord__65 Psychic Hood
Land Raider__250
Mystic__3__18
Troops
4x Infantry Platoon __Plasma Gun, Drop Troopers, CoD__ 280

2x Junior Officer __81 __Iron Discipline, Close Order Drill, Drop Troops, flamerx3

Elites:
3x Hardened Vets __225 __meltagunx3, vet sarge w/shotgun, Drop Troops
Fast
Hellhound 2__230__inferno cannon, hull HB

Heavy
2xLeman Russ__310__heavy bolter, HB sponsons
Leman Russ Demolisher__186__Lascannon, Plas sponsons, Searchlight

1850 List cost

I apologize for the format. Cut and pasted from Xcel.

This is a list that I've found a lot of success with against all comers. The Black Templar player won't even try a game with me anymore.

Good luck with your games, looking forward to the reports!

sourclams wrote:I apologize for the format. Cut and pasted from Xcel.

I'm actually a little confused by the list format but I think I get it. Very similar to a list I've been kicking around using actually, but I haven't been able to decide on the land raider. *edit* ok, it's fixed, and faST! 20kp's is a bit scary though... in annihilation obviously but also as tiebreakers

Kungfuhustler wrote:
Actually I'm pretty sure that's how it works.

well, you're wrong I'm afraid. The shooter must draw LoS to the hull or turret. Since the turret is higher than the HH, anyone in its front arc can see it. Both turret and hull would have to be completely out of LoS. IWhile theoretically you could have your barrel sticking out somewhere, that doesn't work in this case and it doesn't work in most factual situations.

Anyhow, a 4+ cover save is better than no cover save, right?

Grimaldi wrote:However, to fill the same general role, you could drop in jungle fighters with a heavy flamer and regular flamer. Squad costs 91 points, can land anywhere, is scoring, and automatically hits (instead of 50% of the time). Throw in two squads of those and you get a few drop-melta/plasma platoon HQs, too! That's a whole lot of pain for a reasonable cost.

Depends on what you mean by "automatically hits."

If they don't scatter, then you're fine, but they scatter more often than a hellhound misses.

On top of that, if they scatter they'd be lucky to get half the number of models they could regularly get under the templates.

Back to your first response to the original post, why are you using it to shoot vehicles? I suppose that if it's the only shot you have, take it, but if you're using an anti-infantry unit to shoot light armor, I think we may have the issue.

I don't demand any unit "earn its points back;" it's a team effort for my guys. If I have an extra round of demolisher shooting because my opponent is attempting to kill the flamethrower tank, do I solely attribute the points to the demolisher?

earning their points back isn't the main problem, honestly, it's earning 1/5 of their points back. 1/3 of them happened, once. It is true that the HH's will sometimes take the firing priority (not the rule) of my opponent away from a demo but it's usually not from a gun that would have an easy time with the demo. When given the opp to shoot either tank with a MM I've never seen someone chose to kill the HH. In my experience the HH get's shot at by med to low-high str guns because it's easy to kill and could have an impact later.

I think hellhounds are good. AP 3 aint they.

AP 4.

If they were AP 3 they'd be taken by everyone.

Seems good against eveything but MEQ, no cover saves also.

You do know that you can spin the flamer template to get max number of models, and the template only has to barely touch a base to count it as a hit right? I have had a single hellhound kill 20+ boys in a single shooting phase (had help from a lash prince 2 on 2 game). As long as the template is with in 24 inches you can place it in what ever crazy configuration you like. fat in toward the tank, side to side, what ever.

Wow. Just dredged up the list I mentioned earlier, sourclams. It is virtually the same save that I don't have the lascannon team and I have 10 Rough Riders w/ company standard. I'm going to give it a shot for these games. ok, back to painting.

Lord Solar Plexus wrote:

Kungfuhustler wrote:
Actually I'm pretty sure that's how it works.

well, you're wrong I'm afraid. The shooter must draw LoS to the hull or turret. Since the turret is higher than the HH, anyone in its front arc can see it. Both turret and hull would have to be completely out of LoS. IWhile theoretically you could have your barrel sticking out somewhere, that doesn't work in this case and it doesn't work in most factual situations.

The turret of the Hellhound is high enough to block the Leman Russ's. Set the models up and see for yourself. If you're running the list I posted, you can also hide behind the Land Raider. Since your opponent cannot measure to the barrel, you can shoot flanking units while staying fully hull down to his heavy weapons squads. Remember, when you spin the turret, the "front" becomes part of whatever facing it rests over (side, rear) since facing is determined by geographic location on the vehicle.

well, I'm about to go get a game in. Decided to lose a russ for a basilisk and 2x improved comms. g/l to me... I may need it with these blasted hellhounds.

I find Hellhounds to be excellent tanks, I also notice you shouldn't be complaing about hitting on a 4+ as that is what most of your army hits on.

The Hellhound is an amazing tank IMO and I only own one because I'm hoping for a new plastic kit with the new IG codex (knock on wood).

As for "earning its points back", it does it through liability.
It draws fire from the rest of your army because most players want to shoot the scary flamethrower tank with everything they have.
And when you do shoot with it don't aim for the typical mundane horde units running across no man's land at you. Shoot at the low armored support units hiding in cover (lootas, harlies, SM scouts, lootas, pathfinders, LOOTAS!)

Another hint in case you haven't realized it already; the flame template can be placed facing any direction as long as the whole thing is in range

sourclams wrote:
The turret of the Hellhound is high enough to block the Leman Russ's. Set the models up and see for yourself.

I did precisely that last night, and no, the HH is not high enough to completely hide the whole Russ. It obscures the Russ like 99 percent or so but I can see parts of the turret. Want me to take a picture tonight?

Remember, when you spin the turret, the "front" becomes part of whatever facing it rests over (side, rear) since facing is determined by geographic location on the vehicle.

I'm sorry but I do not remember any nexus between swivelling turrets and facing. It would be much appreciated if you could provide a page reference or quote. It does not matter whether or how you swivel that turret, the enemy units still look at the same arc, and if they can draw a line to the turret - which they can, or the two of us use different models - then the Russ is but obscured.

Also, the barrel itself is not the highest point. If indeed as you claim even that highest point of the turret is blocked from view by the HH, then they have no LoS at all to the Russ, which accordingly doesn't get any cover save (since it cannot be shot at in the first place).

Lord Solar Plexus wrote:
I'm sorry but I do not remember any nexus between swivelling turrets and facing. It would be much appreciated if you could provide a page reference or quote. It does not matter whether or how you swivel that turret, the enemy units still look at the same arc...[sic]

To determine facing, you draw two intersecting lines through the model that dissect it into four rough triangles. These triangles are then labeled front/side/side/rear. If you spin the turret to the side, its overhang is no longer in the front facing, but rather over the side/rear, which is what puts that portion of it into that facing. That's why I say there's nothing that declares facing beyond geographic location on the vehicle and how it falls into those four triangles. You can shoot at the front of the swiveled turret from the side; it's side facing. Likewise you can shoot at the side from the front; it's front facing.

Wow. I tried a armored column formation today... LR in front w/ basilisk behind it flanked by the demo & russ w/ HH's flanking the LR. set up 1st, initiative was stolen. Typically I take a reactionary deployment, but I wanted to start off in a defensive formation and advance to a strategic firing column... An Eldar jetbike army pwnd me on a level I've never been pwnd on before. oh holy fail. My entire front line was immobilized and one hellhound was instantly destroyed with a result of 5. Full report later. Neither HH passed round 2. Granted this was one of those jetbike spam lists that bosted 37 str 6 shots/turn and he was rolling amazingly well but I was still killed to death.

Kungfu, you might want to check your opponents dice? Even if your opponent concentrated every one of thoes 37 str 6 shots on your hell hounds he should only get three glancing hits a turn. Guardian jetbikes are bs3 right? This is assuming average rolling. There was a fellow I used to play a lot. I was always amazed at his doce rolling. When he needed hi, he got hi, when he needed low he got low. That is until I requested that he roll his dice instead of just dropping them. Then his rolls normalized and I started having fun playing.

Polonius wrote:I actually tend to agree with the OP. I have two hellhounds that I sometimes run (with three bare LRBTs and a couple of chimeras at 1850), and I am consistently underwhelmed with their performance. I know it's a popular tank and a lot of folks swear by it, but every time I try to use it it accomplishes little to nothing, and then get's destroyed. I figure I'm doing something wrong or I'm missing something, because I simply don't understand why anybody likes them at all, let alone waxes eloquent about them.

I think its just bad luck really.

Anything with an inferno cannon (all of two vehicles carry them currently, the IG hellhound and the space marine siege dreadnought) is a great choice to take in an army.

I will agree that they often do not make their points back if an opponent is targeting them (GEq opponents cannot afford to allow them to stay on the field), but it is a cheap vehicle for both IG and SM uses so no harm if it gets destroyed.

I swear by my siege dreadnought. And it almost always is played against MEq.

I'm not worried about the Hellhound getting it's points back, I've just never seen them accomplish anything: it doesn't hurt units, it doesn't survive to contest objectives, and in the current mech heavy environment most of my opponents aren't even that scared of it!

Obviously I'm in the minority, and I'll keep trying different configurations, but I don't have a ton of confidence.

I love my hellhounds, the way I have them they cost 132 points. I am sure that will change with the new codex. I have burned up entire units of troops with them and even taken down a flyer or two with a heavy stubber.

Now when they do blow up I ususaly lose a couple of squads if I leave them to close to the tank.

The Hellhound offers a good Fast attack choice in my opinion. At least it will be around longer than a Sentinel with a heavy flamer.

Warrior 50

sourclams wrote:
To determine facing, you draw two intersecting lines through the model that dissect it into four rough triangles. These triangles are then labeled front/side/side/rear. If you spin the turret to the side, its overhang is no longer in the front facing, but rather over the side/rear, which is what puts that portion of it into that facing. That's why I say there's nothing that declares facing beyond geographic location on the vehicle and how it falls into those four triangles. You can shoot at the front of the swiveled turret from the side; it's side facing. Likewise you can shoot at the side from the front; it's front facing.

The facing of the turret is no different from the facing of the hull, regardless of how you swivel it. The dissecting lines stay in place. If you swivel the main gun to one side, then the overhang becomes part of the side facing - it is now in this triangle.

No vehicle ever presents two facings to one enemy model in this fashion. The impression that there is a side facing that is simultaneously a front or rear facing is wrong - look at the diagram and show me where there are two such simultaneous facings, and I concede the point immediately. After all, I could potentially benefit from your interpretation.

Oh, apologies, Kungfu. I didn't come here to hijack your thread but I needed to understand the solution sourclams suggested.

You just have bad luck my friend, that stinks.

Eldar are usually absolutely anhilated by hellhounds. You bypass nearly all of their armor and you cause instant death to most of them.

Well, there is alwasy Ebay if you really hate them. Grab some Chimeras instead, or some sentinals. Maybe just more heavy weapon squads? I don't know that is such a dramtically different experience than what I have.

Mine ALWAYS have a big impact on the game. I have a seige dred in my marines too and it is an allstar too, there are just so many uses for the inferno cannon.

But, YMMV, sorry to hear that you have such bad luck in your games.

Lord Solar Plexus wrote:

sourclams wrote:
To determine facing, you draw two intersecting lines through the model that dissect it into four rough triangles. These triangles are then labeled front/side/side/rear. If you spin the turret to the side, its overhang is no longer in the front facing, but rather over the side/rear, which is what puts that portion of it into that facing. That's why I say there's nothing that declares facing beyond geographic location on the vehicle and how it falls into those four triangles. You can shoot at the front of the swiveled turret from the side; it's side facing. Likewise you can shoot at the side from the front; it's front facing.

The facing of the turret is no different from the facing of the hull, regardless of how you swivel it. The dissecting lines stay in place. If you swivel the main gun to one side, then the overhang becomes part of the side facing - it is now in this triangle.

No vehicle ever presents two facings to one enemy model in this fashion. The impression that there is a side facing that is simultaneously a front or rear facing is wrong - look at the diagram and show me where there are two such simultaneous facings, and I concede the point immediately. After all, I could potentially benefit from your interpretation.

Oh, apologies, Kungfu. I didn't come here to hijack your thread but I needed to understand the solution sourclams suggested.

You just said the exact same thing I did. If you swivel the turret to the left, then it is part of the side facing. That's why blocking the front of the Russ works; the enemy can see the front of the turret but it is part of the side facing.