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or is the hellhound utterly without merit? I have tried to field 1, 2 and 3 of them (a huge wast of money IMHO) and have NEVER seen one earn it's points. not against eldar ranger lists, not against orks, not against chaos, not against anyone.

How did you manage to not earn your points back vs. a ranger list?

Place template down. Bam 5 pathfinders die.

I think you might be strategically challenged

Against Orks, Guard and a rare Ranger list, they would make their points back 9x over.

Even against marines they can be used to force many saves on units of bikes (high toughness), take out rhinos, razorbacks, preds, vindicators (side armours).

I have one in my guard and with the new codex anticipate painting up 1-2 more.

They are wondrous

Haha, Last night I was thoroughly ripping apart one of my regular opponents (IG) and towards the end of the game the only thing I was worried about was his hellhound. More so than hs chimera, more so than his demolisher. Why? Because it has the ability to rip apart an entire squad (stealers) sitting on an objective. If I hadn't stopped it, the tables could have thoroughly turned.

MarvinGayeIsMyDaddy wrote:How did you manage to not earn your points back vs. a ranger list?

Place template down. Bam 5 pathfinders die.

yeah... I roll a d6. the result is a 3. now I roll 5d6 and only two dice are 4+. wow, I just killed 2 rangers. That was points well spent.

Joyous_Oblivion wrote:I think you might be strategically challenged

Against Orks, Guard and a rare Ranger list, they would make their points back 9x over.

Even against marines they can be used to force many saves on units of bikes (high toughness), take out rhinos, razorbacks, preds, vindicators (side armours).

I have one in my guard and with the new codex anticipate painting up 1-2 more.

They are wondrous

Against guard? Guard have NO problem with av12. it's dead before it pops off a shot if my opponent wants. I play against orks very frequently (about 2-4 games per week) and they have never, ever ever earned their points back while fielding 3. ONE time ONE of the 3 earned it's points. that's it. It did so by glancing 2 vehicles on 2 consecutive turns. okay so it didn't earn it's points back but it was actually helpful.

Lukus83 wrote:Haha, Last night I was thoroughly ripping apart one of my regular opponents (IG) and towards the end of the game the only thing I was worried about was his hellhound. More so than hs chimera, more so than his demolisher. Why? Because it has the ability to rip apart an entire squad (stealers) sitting on an objective. If I hadn't stopped it, the tables could have thoroughly turned.

It's a scary tank... but that's all it is imho. You were afraid of it so it wins. chances are just as likely as not that your opponent would roll a 1,2 or 3 and your stealers would have been just dandy on their point.

Don't forget that since an Inferno Cannon isn't ordnance, it can also hit you with the HB.

I like the IDEA of it and love the model. Sadly, in it's current state, it is iffy at best. Even running 2 you have the chance of those shots coming up 1-3 just as often as you are 4-6. Most people, at least those w/ some sort of horde army, will fear it and target it quickly. Could be good could be bad....just depends.
Having said that I have used it now in 4 different matches. 2 of those matches I used 2 instead of just 1.....50-50 is how well it does me. I had a game where after I blew up a Ork Truck, i proceeded to annihilate the squad that jumped out. 2nd time it did well for me I forced a lot of saves of Marines and they started dropping. Force enough saves and everyone dies......I've also used it to clear objectives late in the game and also had it blow up while doing nothing.

Its a wonderful tank and like most tanks in 40K they work best in pairs. I hope that it is not hit by the nerf bat with the new codex. I COULD see them making them Open-topped due to the volitile chemicals it has (like the old, old codex).

It is indeed a great tank, but I think it needs a slight tweak.

I think it would make more sense to make you roll 2d6 for the vehicle's explosion radius, since the gas tanks would be going kabloomey too.

Are you all crazy? Hellhounds en masse are one of the best things the IG codex has going for it right now. no cover saves, 24" range, hitting everything touched by the template 50% of the time, and 50% of the stuff under themplate the other 50% of the time, wounding nearly everything on 2s....

AdeptSister wrote:I COULD see them making them Open-topped due to the volitile chemicals it has (like the old, old codex).

What they should do to represent that is make it so that both destroyed results count as explodes.

Kungfuhustler wrote:or is the hellhound utterly without merit?

Is that a trick question? The Hellhound is the best thing since sliced bread.

I have tried to field 1, 2 and 3 of them (a huge wast of money IMHO) and have NEVER seen one earn it's points.

So what? "Earning points back" is irrelevant anyways. What matters is whether you can deal with a specific threat, regardless of the relative costs, and how reliable any given tool can do that. Nothing in the codex hits as good as the Hellhound does. Nothing of comparable cost can put out so many shots (via covering many models). Nothing ignores cover, at a decent S and AP, at that range.

Kungfuhustler wrote:
yeah... I roll a d6. the result is a 3. now I roll 5d6 and only two dice are 4+. wow, I just killed 2 rangers. That was points well spent.

You're joking, right?

You are seriously telling us that a unit is only good when it hits automatically or what? Is an autocannon squad the sucks because you've just rolled a couple of '1's'?!? Are Lootas crap because you managed not to hit with them? Give me a break, please.

The question that you must ask yourself is whether any other tool in that point range would do better at this particular job.

I play against orks very frequently (about 2-4 games per week) and they have never, ever ever earned their points back while fielding 3.

I play against Orks less frequently than you. I do not know whether my Hellhounds ever "made their points back", and frankly I fail to see why anyone would care. Regardless, my Hellhounds (2) are instrumental in defeating tough hordes. They at the very least allow me to reduce huge mobs to a manageable size, dictate what he most likely shoots at and sometimes even deny certain areas.

Tell me, how exactly do you get a dozen Orks that have gone to ground in some good real estate off of an objective if not with a cover-ignoring, armour penetrating, 2+ to wound template? Do you field any other tanks to take the heat off of them or to provide cover saves or to block LoS or do you field just the HH? Because I can see how and why that doesn't work so well (especially if your opponent fields lots of Lootas or outflanking hard-hitting stuff).

Lord Solar Plexus wrote:
Tell me, how exactly do you get a dozen Orks that have gone to ground in some good real estate off of an objective if not with a cover-ignoring, armour penetrating, 2+ to wound template?

drop troops with flamers. I have plenty and I keep them in reserve w/ improved comms for just that occasion. Maybe I'm being unfair to these pieces of spank, but playtesting has proved them to be worthless trash as far as I'm concerned. Sure, there is a very occasional instance (like the one you mention) where they might come in handy, but in the times that situation has come into play (and it has) they have failed me each and every time.

Kungfuhustler wrote:
drop troops with flamers. I have plenty and I keep them in reserve w/ improved comms for just that occasion. Maybe I'm being unfair to these pieces of spank, but playtesting has proved them to be worthless trash as far as I'm concerned. Sure, there is a very occasional instance (like the one you mention) where they might come in handy, but in the times that situation has come into play (and it has) they have failed me each and every time.

Well, if that works better for you, I see no need to tell you otherwise. I personally think that is a really bad idea. It's so much less reliable. Just scatter a little off and you're either on top of them or out of flamer range, and even with an improved comms you can never be certain when they appear. Lots of MSU's - as you have plenty - dropping into a hot DZ also means trouble, not only in KP missions but against anything with a blast (which I understand Orks don't have much but still).

Btw, how many do you have and which type?

I think we just got to the bottom of Kungfu's problem. It sounds like he is just fielding hellhounds with no other tanks on the board. So all of his opponents anti-tank guns are zeroing in on one to two av12 vehicals. That is just asking for trouble. In the IG army with the current dex you need to go super heavy armor, or none at all. Proxy three russ's with triple heavy bolters along with three hell hounds and an armored fist squad or two. The difference in effectiveness will suprise you. You need to field some AV14 to take the heat off the hell hounds.

I actually tend to agree with the OP. I have two hellhounds that I sometimes run (with three bare LRBTs and a couple of chimeras at 1850), and I am consistently underwhelmed with their performance. I know it's a popular tank and a lot of folks swear by it, but every time I try to use it it accomplishes little to nothing, and then get's destroyed. I figure I'm doing something wrong or I'm missing something, because I simply don't understand why anybody likes them at all, let alone waxes eloquent about them.

You have to remember that they are your opponents #1 target. If you do not protect them, you opponent will target and destroy them asap. Personally I find that they kill all infantry types as effectivly as a Russ, but they do not have the armor. VS 4+ save and worse infantry they kill better than a Russ, and at 115 points it does not take much to get their points back. I used to use my hell hounds to protect the flanks of my chimeras. Now I keep my hellhounds behind my chimera's and Russ's. It is really easy to setup a 3+ cover save and still have your hellhound shooting.

wouldnt chimera with turret heavy flamer + hull mounted heavy flamer work better and survive longer?

( I have no idea just suddenly thougt about it )

Not really Luna. You have to get too close to use that hull heavy flamer.

Is there a single other fast attack slot in any codex that gets front AV 12? And with the huge bump to template weapons, what's not to love?

I play Tau, and I must kill them before I kill anything else - something Tau can admittedly accomplish. However, it's all the things I wasn't shooting at that now get to "earn their points back"

Don't discount being able to alter the flow of the battle, esp. in 5e. The only thing that matters at the end of the day is who has more uncontested objectives!

Rmeju

foil7102 wrote:I think we just got to the bottom of Kungfu's problem. It sounds like he is just fielding hellhounds with no other tanks on the board. So all of his opponents anti-tank guns are zeroing in on one to two av12 vehicals. That is just asking for trouble. In the IG army with the current dex you need to go super heavy armor, or none at all. Proxy three russ's with triple heavy bolters along with three hell hounds and an armored fist squad or two. The difference in effectiveness will suprise you. You need to field some AV14 to take the heat off the hell hounds.

I also field 2 russ, a demo and 3 chimeras

LunaHound wrote:
wouldnt chimera with turret heavy flamer + hull mounted heavy flamer work better and survive longer?

( I have no idea just suddenly thougt about it )

I have run my chimeras with that option before but prefer them with the singular heavy flamer option and utilized the firing point for another flamer template. It's fairly killy when I have had call to use it.

rmeju wrote: I play Tau, and I must kill them before I kill anything else - something Tau can admittedly accomplish. However, it's all the things I wasn't shooting at that now get to "earn their points back"

Don't discount being able to alter the flow of the battle, esp. in 5e. The only thing that matters at the end of the day is who has more uncontested objectives!

Rmeju

This is actually the only merit I have found in the hellhound. It's psychological value is very strong.

From what I've seen, the best usage of the Hellhound is as a terror weapon, not for actually killing things. Hellhound has high damage potential, so it draws a lot of attention and mental focus far out of proportion to what it will actually do in-game.

But with only AV12, it gets blown up / disabled easily.

Thus, I see the Hellhound to be best as a semi-tough distraction to enable unmolested Demolisher fire.

Drive your tanks like this:
_H
HRH
_R
_R

It forms a cross with three Leman Russes as the stem and Hellhounds at the limbs.

Now your Hellhounds command more than half the board and your Russes have a 3+ cover save from anything in the front arc. You've also got 6 significant template and blast slinging tanks for something like 800 points.

Only Dark Eldar bring enough anti-tank to the field to deal with it, and unless they waste shots on the Hounds, it's largely useless on your 3+ cover saves. The advantage of a Hellhound over a Chimera is that for just a few points more, you have a Fast Attack vehicle that is truly deadly against any basic troop barring Marines and Necrons, which it is merely viable against.

This thread is making me sad.




If you are throwing a Hellhound at the enemy and hope it will live to make it's points back, then you need to rethink you tactics.

A hellhound is an awesome tank, and if used correctly and be an absolute terror. But you need to protect it, AV12 + powerful weapon = high priority target.

So what does a savvy IG commander do?

Protect it.

Use AV14 tanks to block LOS to your HH from your opponents anti tank weapons, push forward with the whole mass of armor and lay waste. Throw in some chimeras in the mix and a platoon of infantry to walk in front of your armor to eat any potential assaults, and you have a mobile firebase that will put the fear into your opponent.

Or run a hellhound up the flank behind cover, and unleash hell.

Just don't expect the hellhound to stand up to direct anti tank fire and you should do well.

sourclams, how does that provide a 3+ save? I assume the opposition is in the direction / in front of the uppermost 'H' and in their front arc, and that they can see parts of that facing. Don't the tanks only receive a 4+ then?

The entire hull facing is covered; the first Russ by the Hellhounds, the second and third Russ by the first Russ from the front arc. Because the Battle Cannons are turret-mounted you can still command a decent field of fire, but your opponent is going to have to either make your Hellhounds explode or waste 2/3 of his anti tank fire to do away with your Russes.

That sounds iffy at best. They can see the turret, ergo they can see a part of the facing side. I don't think you draw LoS to the hull only.

If the turret is not part of the front facing, then what other facing does it belong to? If it does not belong to any facing, then it obviously is not part of the tank at all.

I am on the fence for this particular vehicle. It fills a very important position in the IG list (horde control) but is still effective against other units, too.

However, to fill the same general role, you could drop in jungle fighters with a heavy flamer and regular flamer. Squad costs 91 points, can land anywhere, is scoring, and automatically hits (instead of 50% of the time). Throw in two squads of those and you get a few drop-melta/plasma platoon HQs, too! That's a whole lot of pain for a reasonable cost.