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Hope they scatter into one of your squads.

Are the new SM stormshields 4++ or 3++?

Either way, I'd sick a unit of 10 GKTs on them, close combat like.

30 attacks on the charge, 20 hits, 17 wounds, 8.5 dead if it's 4++, 5 dead if it's 3++.

Then just throw in a Grand Master for good measure. That increases the kill count by about one wound either way. And if you use Holocaust... You get the idea.

They strike back with either 2 attacks or 8, depending on whether it's a 4++ or 3++, and end up dealing either .5 wounds or 2. Either way, Grey Knight Terminators come out on top.

Initiative is a beautiful thing.

Of course, if the assault termies get the charge, things are different, but that's why you don't let them.

My 1,500 Ork battlewagon list can consistently kill 6+ terminators a turn just from shooting. Since 10 assault termies is a big chunk of points, I won't have to worry too much about the rest of his army. Afterward, assault the unit with a 30 man squad (backed with a trukk squad if you feel like it) and kill 3 more. Profit.

Storm-hammers aren't so scary when all you have to protect you in the first place is a t-shirt, your guns have a potential 25" range thanks to open-topped transports, and you can probably just simply ignore the unit for the rest of the game.

everyone has basically already said it: small arms fire, in proper quantities>terminators, stormshield or not. They may tout their 3++ save, but when you're making them take and fail their 2+ armour, they're gonna be angry. Besides, watching (a) terminator(s) go down to lasguns makes me all warm and happy inside. 'What, that flashlight in the eyes too bright for ya?'

I like that a 30-boy mob w/ PK nob, a 200 point unit, can gut a 400 point terminator squad. Also super-painful. Lots of big choppa nobz would wreck their day too.


Nullzone, vindicator, and plasma cannon devastators would be my other recommendation.

Edit: one of the things I'm gonna miss about the old IG 'dex: fire your whole army at them: let them eat a 5-man command squad. fire your whole army at them. let them eat another 5-man command squad. Rinse and Repeat, or just feed them little squads until you've tabled the rest of their army.

Yeah, I think most armies have something that can deal with the "shock and awe" tactic.

Marines: plasma, vindicator
Orks: Lots of small arms, with a sacrificial unit or two
Necrons: Destroyers, warscythes
Nids: read orks
IG: lots of everything

daemons have bloodcrushers and I have had a lucky soulgrinder shot kill 8 or so in one go.

0ldsk00l wrote:and you have one turn to kill them before they assault you. what is the best way to defeat this unit BEFORE they can?

Shoot the hostage!

I suppose I would simply fall back to standard Necron battle tactics:

Step 1: Shoot it with every available Gauss weapon
Step 2: Keep shooting it with every available Gauss weapon
Step 3: KEEP SHOOTING DAMMIT!!!

Possibly, you think that the SM player is stupid.
He deep strikes his Termies in front of the enemy and that's it. He will have other units supporting them.
Charge with Pariahs? They will be dead before they could charge.
Railguns? Hammerhands will be stunned or Suits will be dead.
Bloodcrushers? Will be decimated too.

Backpedal firously while shooting them with whatever guns available.. I have Chaos and If They deepstriked in front of me most of my squads would backpedal shooting. Maybe if I had my Bloodthirster on he would just charge in and deal damage but other then that. Piss bolt away and then shot.

Bloodthirster. This damn thing will get eaten: 20 attacks, 10 hits, 8 wounds, 4 saves.

Green Blow Fly wrote:So in general it is not a good tactic to DS the 10 assault terminators in front of a smart opponent. The landraiders change the odds dramatically though.

Dark lances are actually not that great against AV12+...

0.67 to hit, 0.5 to glance, 0.167 to immobilize => 6%
0.67 to hit, 0.33 to penetrate, 0.33 to wreck/destroy => 7%

If your opponent pops his smoke launchers those odds are now cut in half, so less than 5% chance of stopping either landraider. If you are shooting all your lances at the landraiders the rest of the SM army will be run a clinic... I would take a whirlwind or two and rain down death from above.

G

Slight adjustment:

.67 to hit, .33 to penetrate, .50 to immobilize/wreck/destroy =>11%

Combined likelihood of forcing the Termies to hoof it: 17%. I have 22 DL equivalents in my army. Statistically, it should only take 6 shots to force the Termies to walk. Statistically, it should take 10 shots to destroy the Raider. Granted, Smoke does double the number of shots, but any decent DE player is going to have enough. I consider my 22 DL equivalents kinda light. I have played a list with 42 before, but that proved to be no fun for anyone, and it has something like 33 kill points.

A DE player doesn't even have to spend an entire turn in focusing on the LR/Termies, if he doesn't want. All he has to do is spend enough shooting to get them walking, use mobility to make sure they can't assault the next turn, and spend the rest of the shooting phase focusing on the rest of the SM army. Since the Termies have no shooting and cannot fleet, the superior mobility of a DE army allows the player to effectively ignore the Termies by avoiding them and focusing attacks on the rest of the SM army.

However, that wasn't the question the original poster posed to us.

Demolition charge with supporting fire.

Str 9 Ap 2.

Hope it doesn't scatter.

I've been playing with 2 DH Inqs and mytics in my IG list with demolishers with plasma cannons nearby. If everything works out right, I get 4 plasma cannon shots at them as they drop in and are still bunched together...and worst, it's only 2 demolisher cannon shots.

Then, repeat on my turn.

SAG them (I'm usually insanely lucky with an SAG, getting double six every time I shoot termies). Failing that hit 'em hard and repeatedly with 30 strong slugga boyz mobz. They'll fail saves eventially.

.67 to hit, .33 to penetrate, .50 to immobilize/wreck/destroy =>11%

If they pop their smoke you are back to 5%.

I have two Baals in my BA army and have faced lance heavy DE on multiple occassions with both tanks making it through each time.

G

And I addressed that, as well, assuming you read the rest of the post that you partially quoted. Even with smoke, the Termies are walking, statistically, with about half of my regular lists Dark Lances, and I don't even consider my DE list particularly competitive.

As a DE player, I'm not worried about killing the Land Raider, I just want the Termies walking. Once on foot, they are really no longer a threat to my more mobile army.

As for your comment about your Baal Preds, well anecdote is not evidence. If it were, then all those herbal remedies you hear about must be a great investment. I, myself, with my regular DE list have had times where I have lucked out and killed two Land Raiders on turn one before getting through half of my shooting.

Does that mean it is something I expect to happen? Of course not, but even in cover or in smoke a typical DE list with 20+ DL equivalents should at least immobilize/weapon destroy/kill one vehicle for every ten or so shots. Lacking smoke or cover, it is one out of every five shots.

If you've had better luck, well bully for you.

wuestenfux wrote:Bloodthirster. This damn thing will get eaten: 20 attacks, 10 hits, 8 wounds, 4 saves.

WS 4 versus 10, so 20 attacks, *6.5 hits*, 5 wounds, 2-3 saves.

So it's not nearly ideal, but not quite a first-turn kill.

Second turn kill is almost guaranteed, however.

Saldiven wrote:
As for your comment about your Baal Preds, well anecdote is not evidence. If it were, then all those herbal remedies you hear about must be a great investment.

The truth will set yee free. Really.

G

sourclams wrote:

wuestenfux wrote:Bloodthirster. This damn thing will get eaten: 20 attacks, 10 hits, 8 wounds, 4 saves.

WS 4 versus 10, so 20 attacks, *6.5 hits*, 5 wounds, 2-3 saves.

So it's not nearly ideal, but not quite a first-turn kill.

Second turn kill is almost guaranteed, however.

I forgot that Termies will hit on 5+. Too bad. But the Thirster goes down anyway.

DS assault termies are just not that good.
They remind me of those nurgle slug beasts alot:
Can take alot of damage for their points value,
but are too slow too dish an equivalent amount out.
You can kill them if you want/need to, but theres not much stopping an eldar player from just keeping them
at arms length.
=]

1. Terminators eat every available shot in my army (plasma/railguns doing major damage) sacrifice my least important unit by moving it up to force them to assault it they chew apart my sacrifice, finish them off in the following turn.

2. The landraiders never made it to my line as the broadsides blew them up already, smoke you say? markerlights took care of that.

wuestenfux wrote:Possibly, you think that the SM player is stupid.
He deep strikes his Termies in front of the enemy and that's it. He will have other units supporting them.
Charge with Pariahs? They will be dead before they could charge.
Railguns? Hammerhands will be stunned or Suits will be dead.
Bloodcrushers? Will be decimated too.

Any your assuming we wouldn't have taken action to destroy other threats from his army list. 10 terminators is a lot of points, and if we were playing a game like 1500, that just means I'm facing a 1000 pt list before the termies Deep Strike in- and an extra turn because they are twiddling their thumbs for a bit when they come in. That means they will have a 50% chance to do anything on turn 3, a 66% chance to do anything on turn 4, etc...

If I can't cripple 1000 points of marines with 1500 points I'm a failure as an ork player.

Rapidfire goodness, then jump them with Shrike, 5 Vanguard with Twin LC's and a Chaplain.

It kinda should beat 10 termies.. that lil set up is both hq slots & a fast attack which costs 170ish points more!

Good thing about termies is that, against crazy-ass shooty armies like tau, you Can either transport, footslog or teleport them. Versitile. Expensive so that its never worth taking 10 (for either the risk of vindi pie plates, not coming out of reserves for too long, being dominated in H2H)

This entire question depends on the army you are playing as. Some have the firepower to kill that, some have the speed to run away, and some have the CC power to assault and kill that unit. So, what army are you referring to?

Castle up your army:

If your army is spread out, the your opponent can DS the termies in front of a weak point in your army, this will also mean that your "I can kill your termies with this ONE unit" unit will be unable to respond before all hell breaks loose.

All this talk of blood crusher, GKTs, etc, is fine, really, but it won't do you any good if your unit isn't positioned in such a way that van respond.


From a guy who used to use infiltrate and DS units a lot, take it from me, castled up armies give us nightmares.

If the terminators can pull off a multi charge they could put a big dent in a castle. I would come in on the weak flank.

G

Tried it today against chaos demons. didnt work too bad for what I was attempting to achieve; namely to tie up half his army while blasting apart the other half. He charged in daemonettes, seekers and a demonprince, and all his units and my terminators whacked away at each other for severa turns (my to-hit rolls were abysmal, as were his to-wound rolls). I ended the game with 2 terminators (failed invulnerables hurt), and all his stuff neatly crowded around them.

0ldsk00l wrote:Tried it today against chaos demons. didnt work too bad for what I was attempting to achieve; namely to tie up half his army while blasting apart the other half. He charged in daemonettes, seekers and a demonprince, and all his units and my terminators whacked away at each other for severa turns (my to-hit rolls were abysmal, as were his to-wound rolls). I ended the game with 2 terminators (failed invulnerables hurt), and all his stuff neatly crowded around them.

Hopefully you had a librarian with Null Zone right?