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The thing I find interesting about daemon princes for CSM is you can take two and they can generally survive long enough in the hands of a capable general to reach an assault. The Chaos Lord still rocks and can be hidden in a squad - their only weakness is insta death... Even Kharn, Typhus, Ahmiran and Lucius are mashed by a power fist. I think the lash prince has become the no brainer unfortunately... they are very good for what they can do but honestly I think there are better combinations available for the more adventrous (sp?) Chaos players.

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:The thing I find interesting about daemon princes for CSM is you can take two and they can generally survive long enough in the hands of a capable general to reach an assault. The Chaos Lord still rocks and can be hidden in a squad - their only weakness is insta death... Even Kharn, Typhus, Ahmiran and Lucius are mashed by a power fist. I think the lash prince has become the no brainer unfortunately... they are very good for what they can do but honestly I think there are better combinations available for the more adventrous (sp?) Chaos players.

G

I miss 4th edition combat with my prince.

Back when he could attack a 30man Boyz mob and win.

Now with defenders getting a free move and then fighting in basically 3 ranks deep, a DP doesn't have the same melee power.

So now he's relegated to the amazing lash which can make the 30man mob of boyz run backwards without doing damage while obliterators pump em full of plasma cannon pies.

A Chaos Lord is not really worth it in a competitive environment since he can be instantly killed.

If you are keen on using one, give him terminator armor and let him lead a large Terminator squad. They give him maximal protection.

Of course, he looses his Fearless quality if he joins a Terminator squad. So sad to see your Lord running away like a girl because his unit saw a shadow.

A lord is "useful" as a delivery device for a Daemon weapon. Even this isn't enough to make it competitive. But if you really want that D. weapon this is the only way to field it.

I've run both lords and DPs, and DPs just rock soo much harder.

I have always been a fan of the khorne lord with blood feeder Pair of these guys with wings both stuck in with maxed raptor squads can be good for kicks although I would never take a Lord to a tourney for 2 reasons; 1 instant death sucks and two those points could be a daemon prince that will do a hell of a lot more.

Every time I think of a chaos lord build that might be fun... I look at how much I would get in a Prince or Sorcerer for the same cost.

Lets look at a biker lord vs. Winged prince:

Both T5, but the biker can be insta-killed.

Biker lord w/ Power Weapon (minimum useful equipment really) is 135, is str 4, only has 3 wounds and has 4 attacks.

Prince is 5 points cheaper, has the same number of attacks at str 6.

The prince can be targeted separately, but if you're going for target saturation anyways, that's not necessarily a bad thing.

The biker can turbo boost.

So lets slap a Daemon Weapon on that lord:

Now you're looking at 160 points.

If the Prince takes Warp Time he's still better in combat, still higher strength, is still 5 points cheaper, and never, ever runs the risk of standing there like an idiot while tactical marines beat him into the ground.

Blood Feeder is even worse as statistically a lord using it is almost guaranteed to kill himself or allow his CC opponent to kill him during a normal game.

Don't get me wrong: sometimes it's just plain fun to load up on berzerkers, a lord with bloodfeeder, and run your little men across the table screaming "Blood and Skulls for my Lord Khorne!"

But as far as what's "better" any Lord build just doesn't stand up competitively to what can be done for cheaper with a sorc or DP.

@willydstyle, why are you focusing on khorne and for a khorne DP it will add another 10-20pionts on anyway. Why a bike? this isnt orks here. you may want to wack him in a transport. A khorne daemon weapon adds D6 ontop of his base attacks and ignore save(?)

The DP plays a different role in a chaos army compared to the Lord [excluding just a rush sort of plan to table th enemy]

The entire post was not intended to be an analysis of Khorne marked units, simply the last part.

Why a bike is to illustrate the costs of a mobile lord compared to a mobile DP.

If you put the lord in a transport, you're allocating yet more resources, including the squad he's probably traveling with, in the hopes of making one sub-par unit perform well.

willydstyle wrote:The entire post was not intended to be an analysis of Khorne marked units, simply the last part.

Why a bike is to illustrate the costs of a mobile lord compared to a mobile DP.

If you put the lord in a transport, you're allocating yet more resources, including the squad he's probably traveling with, in the hopes of making one sub-par unit perform well.

Yeah, the thing I don't like about the DP vs. Lord discussion is the lord isn't singled to any one spec and bodyguard unit.

That Khorne Lord w/ Juggernaut and Blood Feeder? He costs 170 points and only moves at the speed of a basic tactical marine. He also only has S5 so he can do absolutely no damage to armor 12. He can never penetrate armor 11. As always said, he also dies in one-hit unless a bodyguard dies for him.

Is the khorne lord on a juggernaut w/ blood feeder better at troop-killing in melee than a DP? Yes. But he can't be transported and he can't move fast and he is no threat at range.

So he stumbles across the table with berserkers on foot? Good luck if you come up against someone with 2 lash demon princes instead of that Lord+Zerker point sink.

He'll just make you slowly back up each turn in one bunch as he plasma cannons that unit off the table.

Mobile chaos lord? Flying khorne lord with a blood feeder is still 5 points more than a prince, and he's only S4 and I5 and rolls two dice, if either is a 1 he does ZERO attacks AND he takes an extra unsaveable wound. He's only 3 wounds to begin with.

That means a khorne lord with feeder has a 33% chance per turn to do worse than nothing at all, if he's lucky enough to be in combat. Your khorne lord attacks some trash squad of guard members? Roll a 1 on either dice and you've just lost 1/3rd of 160 points of lord.

For 168 points you can add another 8 berzerkers which is 32 attacks on the charge with S5. 8 wounds. Cannot be killed in one-shot. No chance of it doing 0 attacks per turn. Think carefully before you waste those points on a Lord.

TheBloodGod wrote:For 168 points you can add another 8 berzerkers which is 32 attacks on the charge with S5. 8 wounds. Cannot be killed in one-shot. No chance of it doing 0 attacks per turn. Think carefully before you waste those points on a Lord.

Thanks for making this point It's something that I thought of a while ago: really compared to the troops, none of the Chaos HQs are that wonderful. I'd love to be able to field a Chaos army with no mandatory HQ, but you've gotta make the best of what you've got

willydstyle wrote:

TheBloodGod wrote:For 168 points you can add another 8 berzerkers which is 32 attacks on the charge with S5. 8 wounds. Cannot be killed in one-shot. No chance of it doing 0 attacks per turn. Think carefully before you waste those points on a Lord.

Thanks for making this point It's something that I thought of a while ago: really compared to the troops, none of the Chaos HQs are that wonderful. I'd love to be able to field a Chaos army with no mandatory HQ, but you've gotta make the best of what you've got

Yeah, the only HQ thing that's really superior to troops is the Lash. Moving your opponents troops on your turn = Pure win.

Plus, fully tooled mobile Lash prince is 155. And he can either earn his points back or make your opponent spend all his time focusing on these non-scoring monsters.

True, but lash offers your army a mobility advantage, rather than just pure killiness... which is very invaluable.

Although I suppose the common use for lash is just to bunch people up for blast weapons... it definitely has much more potential than that.

willydstyle wrote:It's something that I thought of a while ago: really compared to the troops, none of the Chaos HQs are that wonderful. I'd love to be able to field a Chaos army with no mandatory HQ, but you've gotta make the best of what you've got

Wheres the fun in building a chaos army with a homebrew HQ, with a background story, if you dont take one at all?

Squig_herder wrote:

willydstyle wrote:It's something that I thought of a while ago: really compared to the troops, none of the Chaos HQs are that wonderful. I'd love to be able to field a Chaos army with no mandatory HQ, but you've gotta make the best of what you've got

Wheres the fun in building a chaos army with a homebrew HQ, with a background story, if you dont take one at all?

That is fun. I'm not a new-chaos-dex hater, but the HQ department is seriously lacking compared to other books, especially compared to Orks. You can build a decent DP, but the troops are the strength of the book by far. This disappoints me because chaos HQs have historically been stronger than their imperial counterparts, to sort of highlight the fact that they're bad-ass villains.

Back on topic:
Someone mentioned tanks and how a lord cant beat AV12, do people read his wargear? KRAK GRENADES [or melt, dont remember] they are strong enough to take down a land raider.

As the lord can be armed for alot of different situlations.

Squig_herder wrote:Back on topic:
Someone mentioned tanks and how a lord cant beat AV12, do people read his wargear? KRAK GRENADES [or melt, dont remember] they are strong enough to take down a land raider.

As the lord can be armed for alot of different situlations.

People do read his wargear.

Say a krak lord fights a chaos dread. Statistically he hits 1/6th the time unless walker is stunned/immobilized. Glances 1/6th the time. Rolls of 1-3 on damage chart do absolutely nothing. A roll of a 4 takes away 1 attack from the dread (so example melee dread now has 3, or 4 if he charged), a roll of a 5 removes 1 weapon (so he has one less attack), a roll of a 6 immobilizes it.

On average it'd take 72 turns of him throwing a krak grenades for him to get 1 significant damage like removing a weapon or immobilizing it.

A melta bomb lord has a decent chance of hurting a dread IF he rolls a 6 required to hit the thing with the bomb. Then he has about a 33% chance after that to destroy it. Statistically, if your super 165-point lord with meltabombs spends the entire game in base-to-base with a dread, it's still likely at least half the games the dread will survive.

The dread also moves just as fast as a lord on a juggernaut.
A 140-point khorne DP (because the math is easier than warp time) w/ wings charges said dreadnaught, 6 attacks instead of meltabomb's 1. 3+ to hit. Average 4 hits. With 6 + 2D6 penetration, the average outcome is 13, which is a penetrating. More often than not, the 100-point dread is immobilized or destroyed on the first turn.

That was just to show you why a lord with krak grenades (so weak), or melta-bombs (okay if you roll a 6 and hit) is significantly weaker vs. vehicles than a prince who likely costs much less.

Of course in the above example, the Khorne prince has a 12" base mobility and d6" run, so he only has to be involved with things in his favour.

PS: with Krak grenades it is 100% impossible to take down a landraider. With meltabombs, a non-moving landraider could be blown up, but someone with a landraider should only be driving near a chaos lord if it's going to be dumping something like a 10-man berserker unit. If you somehow got into combat with this LR with your lord you'd likely need a 6 to hit it at all if it moved more than 6".

If you're able to get that close to a landraider, your melta bomb lord is less effective than one meltagun trooper. A 5-man squad of PM w/ 2 meltaguns would be 2 shots 3+ to hit, S8 + 2d6 pen. A super expensive lord w/ one meltabomb 6+ to hit that turn and S8 + 2d6 pen.

The enemy can freely shoot at your unit while you are attempting to melee a tank, so be careful about the group of obliterators wiping your expensive lord unit off the map when you finally touch a LR.

This is just to show how generally the lord won't be anywhere near earning its points back if it's dealing with big armor.

(Edit: Late night spelling mistakes.)

ok, that been, a chaos lord's main objective is to smash troops, which he does better then a DP anyday, give him MoK and Daemon weapon and you can have up to 12+base attacks and ignore saves[?] at strength 5.

If i remeber correctly the profile for the Tzeench daemon weapon, adds +D6 attacks and can be used to shoot with S8 AP3 which can take out a tank easy[ish].

Squig_herder wrote:ok, that been, a chaos lord's main objective is to smash troops, which he does better then a DP anyday, give him MoK and Daemon weapon and you can have up to 12+base attacks and ignore saves[?] at strength 5.

If i remeber correctly the profile for the Tzeench daemon weapon, adds +D6 attacks and can be used to shoot with S8 AP3 which can take out a tank easy[ish].

You should go back and read your codex, as you're pretty much wrong on all counts.

willydstyle wrote:

Squig_herder wrote:ok, that been, a chaos lord's main objective is to smash troops, which he does better then a DP anyday, give him MoK and Daemon weapon and you can have up to 12+base attacks and ignore saves[?] at strength 5.

If i remeber correctly the profile for the Tzeench daemon weapon, adds +D6 attacks and can be used to shoot with S8 AP3 which can take out a tank easy[ish].

You should go back and read your codex, as you're pretty much wrong on all counts.

1. I dont not own a codex, a friend does and like to read it so im not absolute on anything

2. Quote the whole entry for the daemon weapons and i think you will find that my memory isnt that bad.

3. from what i remember daemon weapon weapons give you +D6 attacks and the khornes gives you +2D6.

4. Find quotes which rules me wrong on all accounts then, if you are 100% right

Squig_herder wrote:ok, that been, a chaos lord's main objective is to smash troops, which he does better then a DP anyday, give him MoK and Daemon weapon and you can have up to 12+base attacks and ignore saves[?] at strength 5.

If i remeber correctly the profile for the Tzeench daemon weapon, adds +D6 attacks and can be used to shoot with S8 AP3 which can take out a tank easy[ish].

Deathscreamer (Tzeentch only)
Can be fired in shooting phase Range 24" S4, AP3, Assault d6
If a 1 is rolled for number of shots, no shots are fired and the wielder suffers a wound with no armour save allowed.

So it's only S4 and can't put a scratch in a tank.

Plus, 1/6th of the time you fire it you do no damage and kill 1/3rd of your expensive Lord.

On the Khorne w/ Bloodfeeder, I've already explained why he is bad earlier.

He's expensive and 1/3rd of his turns in combat he kills 1/3rd of himself and does 0 dmg to the enemy.

He also costs a lot of points and is only S4 unless you give him a juggernaut.

Giving him a juggernaut means he's extremely slow, he cannot use a jetpack or bike, and he cannot be transported. It means that he's the most vulnerable type of footslogger HQ. Your enemy should use his firepower to tear apart this squad, because as soon as they do, 1 S8+ shot or attack kills the lord.

If you want to kill infantry, you're much better off buying another squad of Berserkers which would be way more dangerous than a Khorne lord and much more reliable.

PS: A Khorne Lord doesn't have Furious Charge. He doesn't get S5 or I6 when he charges. Only Berserkers have Furious Charge. A unit of CSM w/ Icon of Khorne (granting Mark of Khorne) are only S4 as usual.

About the daemon weapon woops my bad, i was thinkingof that psychic power for Tzeench ^^*

Forgive me there,
Sorry
Squigy

Squig_herder wrote:About the daemon weapon woops my bad, i was thinkingof that psychic power for Tzeench ^^*

Forgive me there,
Sorry
Squigy

It's okay.

Hell, even if a Chaos Lord takes a Mark of Tzeentch, he has access to zero psychic powers.

Only sorcerers and daemon princes can use psychic powers.

Khorne Lord on a juggernaught gets +1S.

G

i have been triing to get the 2 lash sorcerers out of my berzerker list. I played three games yesterday with the jump pack khorne lord with the 8 man raptor unit. he killed lots of troops. he rolled ones about the third of the time but i got lucky with my invulnerable saves so he only took one wound in three games. though a fun guy to play. he will lose games for you. there is just no reason to take a lord ever. mix him with a non fearless unit and he can run the turn he wiffs ouch.

as much as i would like to keep him he is about as usefull as my chaos dreadnaught.

Green Blow Fly wrote:Khorne Lord on a juggernaught gets +1S.

G

And has zero mobility.

Foot slogger, cannot be transported, cannot jetpack, cannot bike, etc.

Meaning his unit should be pretty obvious as a good one to just gun off the board.

Khorne Lord w/ Juggernaut + Blood Feeder + Meltabombs. 175 points.
1 Champ w/ Pfist and 9 Berserkers to bodyguard him. 250 points.
Fire magnet unit total: 425 points.

5 Obliterators for 375 points Lobbing 5 plasma cannon pies into the squad from 36"+ (can move and fire) and then walking backwards if they're well within range destroying that foot slogging squad in the blink of an eye:
Priceless.

TheBloodGod wrote:
It's okay.

Hell, even if a Chaos Lord takes a Mark of Tzeentch, he has access to zero psychic powers.

Only sorcerers and daemon princes can use psychic powers.

Thats abit off, you would have thought that Tzeench would be nice enough to atleast give him one

They can be worth it but I personally like a DP with mark of slannesh and lash. It gets fun from there.