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CommissarKhaine wrote:...As a guard player I have to (respectfully) disagree. I'll admit annihilation missions are hard, but they're doable if you have suitable cover; IG really need LOS-blocking terrain, which is lacking these days.

I could see that, dependant of course on KP for opponents, vs Tau for example or another KP heavy army, there could still be a fight.

CommissarKhaine wrote:Both Daemon hunters and Dark eldar are definitely worse then the guard.

Really? In the context of the 3 standard missions, KP, 2 OBJs and D3+2 Objs I have a hard time seeing how either of those armies isn't better off than IG, generally speaking, DE because of Speed and CC power and DH because of staying power, deepstrike, armor and CC ability. But I think those armies are in the bottom half.

I suppose I wouldn't argue a swap with IG, IG sure can bring a lot of firepower to a table still.

CommissarKhaine wrote:I won't argue that guard are top of the bill, but they're lower middle rather then worst of the worst.. I might even rank necrons behind them.

It may be hard to say who is hurt more by the CC morale checks, IG or Necrons.

CommissarKhaine wrote:I feel the main problem with 5th ed. is that people have failed to adapt, and are still trying the same old tricks as in 4th.... I agree with all the top armies though; at the bottom, I just don't think it's that clear cut.

Sure.

I think Dark Eldar are much higher than 2nd from the bottom. A well played Dark Eldar list will royally mess up anybody due to their ability to annihilate heavy armor, heavy infantry, and all the stuff below that.

Dark Eldar slaughter Space/Chaos Marines at 1750. It's not even close.

I agree. Apparently because of DE lack of play in many areas people don't know just how devastating they can be. A well played DE army at 1500-1750 is like perfect surgery. I may have to play them again.

Dark eldar play havoc with the metagame. Most people are not expecting them and can be caught out against them. What really hurt Dark Eldar the most are the new TLOS rules and lack of area terrain to hide their paper airplanes. It can be an uphill battle for Dark Eldar in KP missions and in general for opponents that are properly prepared and know how to deal with them.

G

Currently, power levels seem something like this:

Most powerful: Orkz, Space Marines

Still fairly powerful: Chaos, Tyranids

Less Powerful: Everyone else

Hrmm switch marines and chaos and I would agree, but still, you don't see that many nid players in the top rankings anymore, I think they are dieing off a little, and will continue to since we have heard a new codex is slated.

Marines are still just marines. They may ignore every rule in the book but that doesnt win you games like lash, high toughness and huge numbers does.

GMMStudios wrote
but still, you don't see that many nid players in the top rankings anymore, I think they are dieing off a little, and will continue to since we have heard a new codex is slated.

I think this is the real issue here.

A lot of hardcore tournament players don't keep coming back year after year with the same army, they'll create entirely new ones or rotate amongst the armies they own. Couple this with a natural tendency amongst players to try their hand with the latest codex and new shinies driving sales and its only natural that the most recent codices will be over-represented at tournaments.

The next problem is that new books have lots of tricks to which people have yet to develop counters. When Orks first came out it was all about loota spam, now its nob bikers. The metagame adapts to these changes and people's lists change to compensate.

Now, having said all that, I think you can rank armies to a certain extent, but any attempt to do so has to take into account player skill, terrain, mission, match-ups (and luck) in any tournament setting - and is in any event skewed by the fact that that there are never equal proportions of armies represented at any given tournament anyway.

What would be really interesting would be a tournament that had an equal number of each army...

UsdiThunder wrote:The Vulkan Cheese-tan List I think is the most powerful followed by Nob bikers, CSM Lash, and Daemons.

Maxed out Termies with 2+/3+ saves and rerolls on Thunderhammers is sick and hard to beat.

How many Assault Termies can you afford in a game with 1500-2000 pts?
Too many Assault Termies severely hampers the army to take on fast armies like mech Eldar that then would fly circles around the Termies.

Wait til may and we'll see who's laughing. horde armies will rule the day.

Why do you think that Horde Armies will be good? Just curious. Do you mean IG?

In my experience I have found the Tyranid Horde works much worse than before because combined melees with gaunts involved makes the bugs always loose, and in practice, then the tougher units like fex and tyrants, end up take an armor save for each little bug that came to help them in the melee and failed.

For tyranids at least, little bugs (horde) are largely a liability.

Also, in my rating list, I was generally rating codexes, not armies, I agree with the comments made about some armies (built from a codex).

I think a seperate effort could be made to rate armies, but that might be even more difficult, later today I may try it.

IG will be a very different matter if the rumored changes (4 pt Guardsmen, KP fix) are true. Dedicated assault armies will be stuck peeling apart the onion a layer at a time while eating piles of templates and rapid fire weaponry for the ground gained killing each individually insignificant squad.

Likewise shooty armies will be staring at dozens of heavy weapons with 10 wounds and cover saves. Damned if you do, Damned if you don't.

GW always hypes every army prior to their release. I am cynic and do not believe that IG will make the leap into the top tier.

G

sourclams wrote:IG will be a very different matter if the rumored changes (4 pt Guardsmen, KP fix) are true. Dedicated assault armies will be stuck peeling apart the onion a layer at a time while eating piles of templates and rapid fire weaponry for the ground gained killing each individually insignificant squad.

Likewise shooty armies will be staring at dozens of heavy weapons with 10 wounds and cover saves. Damned if you do, Damned if you don't.

Fixing IG is a big issue.
Lots of infantry with cheap Guardsmen goes in the right direction, but IG lacks decent counter-strike units.

Indeed, given the new sudden decisiveness and lethality of CC, I still see IG (in their current outdated incarnation) as the worst.

Lets hope a KP fix and points cost changes are coming.

Having no assault ability though, well that is daunting. Time will tell.

Green Blow Fly wrote:GW always hypes every army prior to their release. I am cynic and do not believe that IG will make the leap into the top tier.

G

eh, the last 3 books GW has released have been Orks, Demons and Marines. 2 of them (Orks and Demons) are obviously top tier books, and SM probably have at least 1 top tier build somewhere in their book, we just haven't seen it yet because the book doesn't have tournament experiences to back it up yet. Going back further still, the Chaos Marines book has been great since it came out, and is definitely top tier in 5th edition. The Eldar book is tier 2, but the top of tier 2. It seems to me like each new book ups the power level a bit more. With this pattern, I wouldn't be suprised if the IG book was very, very solid.

That said, you are 100% correct, GW tends to hype the new books way up and create this highteed expectation that usually is not met in the long run. To me, its really 50/50 if its top tier or not when it comes out.

Orks are broken, Daemons while not broken get around a lot of issues other armies have with 5e missions. SM has not proved itself worthy of the top tier yet. If IG were to become top tier I reckon it would happen because someone like Phil Kelly will write a sloppy ruleset again.

G

My outlook for IG is also Grim, I dont expect a fix for Morale Issue, CC impotnecy or mobility and I bet all the doctrines and custom choices will be gone.

Also since the last few dexes were effective I think that means its high time for a stinker, when the next one is written with a new direction for the game.

Consistency seems to be the one thing the author(s) are incapable of.

GW never seems to put a lot of thought into the IG. The last codex was released with little fanfare. It's like it's a codex that have to do, not one they enjoy.

G

Augustus wrote:My outlook for IG is also Grim, I dont expect a fix for Morale Issue, CC impotnecy or mobility and I bet all the doctrines and custom choices will be gone.

Also since the last few dexes were effective I think that means its high time for a stinker, when the next one is written with a new direction for the game.

Consistency seems to be the one thing the author(s) are incapable of.

Lol, I so hope you're wrong. I love IG and they need to not suck in competitive play for once. Any changes right now are good changes.( aside from the obvious, not good changes)

You're right about tyranid though, but all it takes is a good general and those bugs can give you some nasty trouble.

I have high hopes for IG.

When I said horde armies, I primarily meant Orks and IG, who plays tyranid, pfft.

Green Blow Fly wrote: It's like it's a codex that have to do, not one they enjoy.

<cough> Dark Eldar </cough>

A well played Dark Eldar army will destroy any of the top-tier armies.

IG don't need countercharge units. You set up your squads in tiered ranks 20 inches across and 10 deep. You want your squads to die in combat, completely, so that on your next turn you can dump 9 ranks of fire into the consolidating assaulters.

"But multi charge blah blah blah"

In their movement phase, the IG player moves up another squad and walls off the assault unit. With Ig squads costing 50 points, it's not a battle of attrition the attacking army can win.

orchewer wrote:

Green Blow Fly wrote: It's like it's a codex that have to do, not one they enjoy.

<cough> Dark Eldar </cough>

A well played Dark Eldar army will destroy any of the top-tier armies.

Yes and I can fly.

G