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Mobs are made up of models

lol this is pretty stright forward.

If you were using mindwar to target an orky weird boy there would be no doubt in my mind that if there were 8-10+ orks, that weird boy would have a LD score of 8-10.

Like sourclams said its an instrinsic rule to each & each ork.

Through inferance we can apply the weird boys case to any ork with the Mob rule.

The reason why it is mentioned the way it is - the LD value if affected by the mob up rule - is because its that simple. It affects thier LD value. For everything.

The reason why it says 'remember...' is because its already discussed the workings of the Mob Up rule before. Thats why it doesnt mention it for every other ork in the codex because its not nessicary besides to give the weird boy some clarification.

Anyways.. when the ork player is asked what thier orks LD is.. there person can quite correctly say ' I choose to substitute thier LD value for this X"

What is the leadership value of thier respective models? Check that model? What does that MODEL have.. it has the Mob rule. Read the mob rule. Use the mob rule.

Augustus wrote:I understand that, and your interpretation is wrong.

Then by all means, prove me wrong beyond all reasonable argument. Step, for Step, as well with the majority of others in this post who agree that Mob Rule affects the LD of a model being affected by Mind War.

Augustus wrote:How weird boys work has no bearing on Orks being the target of a mindwar, apples and oranges. So it is irrelevant. Furthermore, what you are presenting that it says, "the wierdboy can use the mob rule for LD 10 psychic checks", is actually another misquote. Here is the quote.

"Remember that a Weirdboy's Leadership is affected by the Mob Rule."

Again you are saying im quoting a rule when im not, I am giving my interpretation. My presentation of a Weirdboy testing on LD 10 is not a statement of always having LD 10, but the assumption there are 10+ models in the unit. There is a difference I think you would see and not attack with no truth behind you own accusation.

Further, why in the section saying that they must take a Psychic Test would the author remind you that the models LD is affected by Mob Rule if it actually had no bearing on said Psychic Test itself? Mob Rule and the Weirdboys Leadership Value thus affected because of said rule is accepted as the RAW way to play.

How Wierdboys work with Psychic Tests and how Mind War effects other Orks is certainly relevant in regard to how Mob Rule functions to effect both tests. When the rules for Psychic Tests and Mind War are functionally the same game mechanic, in terms of determining the affected models LD value for said tests. Show me how they are functionally different on that level and I will agree it then has no bearing. If Mob Rule has one effect on a functionally equivalent game mechanic, then how is it not the same effect across the board?

EDIT: I got caught typing this then busy at work. What the above poster said is a good way of explaining it as well.

Augustus wrote:
I understand that, and your interpretation is wrong.

Based on reading Mob Rule and how the codex explicitly references Models possessing the leadership of the number of the Mob, I'd say your interpretation is incorrect.

How weird boys work has no bearing on Orks being the target of a mindwar, apples and oranges.

This would make sense, except:

"Remember that a Weirdboy's Leadership is affected by the Mob Rule."

Based on this quote, it is clear and obvious that individual models possess the leadership value of the mob. This is not an 'exception' rule (as in, Weirdboyz may substitute mob leadership for Psychic Tests), it's a clarification (paraphrase: "do not forget that Mob Rule increases base leadership"). This is clearly unlike any other situation (Sanctioned Psyker/Officer Ld Bubble). Again, it requires a total reading and understanding of leadership substitution, individual leadership values and psychic tests, and Ork Codex rules to reach this conclusion. You can't take it in a vacuum because not only do you come up with what in my opinion is a less than total understanding of the rule, you also create impossible situations like you yourself describe.

It actually never even says to use that leadership for Psychic tests (a separate issue), it's not in the black and white Marius. Furthermore, it says nothing about other Orks. That's really why it is unrelated, an irrelevant part of your case.

You can't gloss over one distinction (Weirdboyz/Mob Rule) and then split hairs over another (Ork Model/Mind War). Based on your interpretation, I could choose to use my Mob's base LD7 if I had a mob of 16 boyz that took 4 shooting casualties from a unit of Khorne Berzerkers preparing to assault in order to fall back out of the Danger Zone. Then I could claim my Fearless USR for being in a big Mob in order to regroup and countercharge on my turn. Obviously this is incorrect, due to 'Always' within Mob Rule. There is no case of substitution, and this is why individual Ork models are Ld10.

Another poster hit on a concept I was wondering about on my ride home today in the "always" language of the mob rule that made me think about this issue further. Could this be a case of the immovable object and the unstoppable force, as in "always substitute LD" from the mob rule and "use models leadership +D6" in the Eldar dex.

There is no reason that you can't read this as "Eldar inflicts Mind War on Ork Model that is Ld 10 due to Mob Rule". This only conflicts if you base Mob Rule's effects on Leadership Bubble types, which operate completely differently from Mob Rule. Again, you only create the "impossible situation" you describe if you ignore parts of the rules.

How weird boys work has no bearing on Orks being the target of a mindwar, apples and oranges.

sourclams wrote:This would make sense, except:

"Remember that a Weirdboy's Leadership is affected by the Mob Rule."[/i]

Based on this quote, it is clear and obvious that individual models possess the leadership value of the mob.

Razerous wrote:Mobs are made up of models lol this is pretty stright forward.

Except thats not what it says in either rule?

...


LOL

the exact wording on page 31 that applies to this reads:

"Because of this, Ork mobs may always choose to substitute the number of Orks in their mob for their normal Leadership value."

This is pretty straight forward. RAW is that you replace their normal Leadership value for the number of orks in the mob.

The point is the value. This *is* the characteristic test that mind war tests against. And Mob rule affects the value.

This is cut and dry in my eyes. Mob rule does affect individual leadership because their is *no* characteristics for *mobs or units* only for models (pg. 6 BGB, second paragraph).

This is how I read it.

It's ok to be wrong. RAW actually says replace the mob's leadership value, not the models.

MOB != Model

Mindwar Attack != Wierdboy Psychic check

Since RAW your argument hinges on the definition of 'Mob', please define 'Mob' for me as a game term in the Ork Codex.

Since yours hinges on weirdboy psychic checks please define how that applies to ork boys.

Augustus wrote:It's ok to be wrong. RAW actually says replace the mob's leadership value, not the models.

MOB != Model

Mindwar Attack != Wierdboy Psychic check

Did you read page 6 of the RB? And page 8 under the heading of "LEADERSHIP TESTS"? Both of these say to use the *Models* LD value against the test, and if their is a *model* with a higher LD value in a unit you would test against *his* LD value.

Again, Mobs and Units (multiple models) do **not** have a LD characteristic. What you are testing against is actually the highest LD value found in that Mob or unit during **all** LD tests per pages 6 and 8.

So, Mob Rule raises the Mobs (individual LD values of the orks) to the number of orks found in the Mob. Again, I can understand the confusion, this has been a misconceived idea since 4rd edition.

Augustus wrote:Since yours hinges on weirdboy psychic checks please define how that applies to ork boys.

I have already admitted that I resort to a RAI inference based on several different inputs. Since yours is a pure RAW argument, please define Ork Mob as it's the 'Orange' that your construction is allowed to dismiss.

Augustus wrote:From the Ork dex:

P 31 "Ork Mobs may always choose to substitute the the number of Orks in their Mobs for their normal Leadership value."

and the Eldar Rule:

P 28 Mind War: "Both Players Roll a D6 and ad the leadership of their respective models."

The Ork rule applies to Mobs, the Mindwar rule to Models! For the LD to work versus Mindwar in the example in question the Mob rule would have to say a model "may always substitute the number of Orks..." and it clearly doesn't. The Mob is not making the test, the Ork is making the test, at LD 7.

This is exactly what I wanted to post. Mobs aren't models. Yes, multiple models form a mob. No, the rules in the Ork codex do NOT state that models are individually granted the substitute leadership value. The mob is granted the substitute leadership value. For that reason, mobs (a.k.a. units) with the 'Mob Rule!' special rule can use the substitute leadership value in situations regarding the unit as a whole. Mind War clearly states to only affect a model, therefore targets with the 'Mob Rule!' special rule still use their normal leadership value.

Augustus has a point. Mobs are not models, mobs are generally considered to be groups of models. Still true is the fact that a mindwar attack is not a psychic check, nor is it a Ld check nor is it comparable to anything else, really.

Nonetheless, Augustus, a well-accepted precept of rules interpretation is to read for context, and make reasonable inferences where appropriate. It's no secret that GW rules are lacking for precision, so we read for context to fill in inconsistencies. There's no need to go into concept of logical positivism here. Suffice it to say that a degree of context is necessary for any interpretive problem.

Now, the Ork FAQ tells us that Mob Rule allows a weirdboy to use mob rule for psychic checks. Here we have a precedential interpretation, more recent than the codex, that tells us that individual models within a mob benefit from the mob rule. This FAQ ruling appears inconsistent with mob rule, because a weirdboy in a mob is not a mob himself. Nonetheless, it's an official interpretation from GW. It is, by definition, correct.

The inference that most people make from this FAQ interpretation is that because one type of model, a weirdboy, benefits from mob rule to affect his own Ld, and because a weirdboy model is not qualitatively different in relevant respects to other types of ork models, that other types of ork models may also use mob rule to benefit their individual Ld values.

Thus, as against mind war, an ork may use mob rule.

Airmaniac wrote:

Augustus wrote:From the Ork dex:

P 31 "Ork Mobs may always choose to substitute the the number of Orks in their Mobs for their normal Leadership value."

and the Eldar Rule:

P 28 Mind War: "Both Players Roll a D6 and ad the leadership of their respective models."

The Ork rule applies to Mobs, the Mindwar rule to Models! For the LD to work versus Mindwar in the example in question the Mob rule would have to say a model "may always substitute the number of Orks..." and it clearly doesn't. The Mob is not making the test, the Ork is making the test, at LD 7.

This is exactly what I wanted to post. Mobs aren't models. Yes, multiple models form a mob. No, the rules in the Ork codex do NOT state that models are individually granted the substitute leadership value. The mob is granted the substitute leadership value. For that reason, mobs (a.k.a. units) with the 'Mob Rule!' special rule can use the substitute leadership value in situations regarding the unit as a whole. Mind War clearly states to only affect a model, therefore targets with the 'Mob Rule!' special rule still use their normal leadership value.

But don't you see, you are inventing your own rule or even re-writing what is written in the Ork Codex. No where in the BGB, does it state anywhere that a "unit" has a LD value or characteristic, and in fact specifically state that all tests are made against a "model's" characteristic. The idea of a *unit LD value* is an invented one.

Please, if you are certain of this ideal, list a page reference that says a unit posses a LD value or characteristic. I have currently found none. Remember that *units* do in fact take the LD test, but it is the *model* with the highest LD value that the test is taken against. Not the *unit*. Again, this is a misconception since 4th ed. In fact, only ever do *models* have characteristics and have to take characteristic tests (not units). As in Mind war. And the Mob rule does in fact raise the LD *value* of the mob (i.e. every model in the mob) This *is* why mob rule does in fact affect the Weird boy (this is a great example) because his actual LD value is indeed changed due to the Mob rule.

I can not stress this enough, to understand fully, please read pages 6 - 8 of the RB especially any part that talks about taking tests and defiantly the "LEADERSHIP TESTS" subject found on page 8.

padixon wrote:...inventing your own rule or even re-writing what is written in the Ork Codex. No where in the BGB, does it state anywhere that a "unit" has a LD value or characteristic, and in fact specifically state that all tests are made against a "model's" characteristic. The idea of a *unit LD value* is an invented one.

Please, if you are certain of this ideal, list a page reference that says a unit posses a LD value or characteristic...

Codex rules take precedence, in specific situations. Its not my rule, the Ork dex says "mobs" may substitute their leedership.

If Mobs was undefined in the BGB ork codex, well, wouldn't that mean that by RAW the Mob rule wouldn't do anything?

Reading with context, I would say "Mobs" is probably a synonym for unit, or squad, but I don't have the Ork dex with me to see if there is any language or precedent for even that.

Airmaniac wrote:

Augustus wrote:From the Ork dex:

P 31 "Ork Mobs may always choose to substitute the the number of Orks in their Mobs for their normal Leadership value."

and the Eldar Rule:

P 28 Mind War: "Both Players Roll a D6 and ad the leadership of their respective models."

The Ork rule applies to Mobs, the Mindwar rule to Models! For the LD to work versus Mindwar in the example in question the Mob rule would have to say a model "may always substitute the number of Orks..." and it clearly doesn't. The Mob is not making the test, the Ork is making the test, at LD 7.

This is exactly what I wanted to post. Mobs aren't models. ..

Thanks! Glad to not be the only one!

Augustus wrote:Codex rules take precedence, in specific situations. Its not my rule, the Ork dex says "mobs" may substitute their leedership.

If Mobs was undefined in the BGB ork codex, well, wouldn't that mean that by RAW the Mob rule wouldn't do anything?

Reading with context, I would say "Mobs" is probably a synonym for unit, or squad, but I don't have the Ork dex with me to see if there is any language or precedent for even that.

Just pointing out that you can't argue that codex rules simultaneously take precedence and do nothing in the same breath.

You have to make inferences with Mob Rule because nobody knows what a Mob is. You can say that the conclusion drawn in comparison to the Weirdboy rules clarification is not valid, but you cannot say that Mob equals unit or squad because there's no literal rules that support your jump.

No where in the description for mind war does it say to use a model's "base" or "unmodified" leadership value. So one would assume any affects that boost leadership either for a single model or an entire unit and don't themselves have a clause in them would be applicable vs. mind war.

Well then, it's not the models LD is it?

sourclams wrote:You have to make inferences with Mob Rule because...

...otherwise you have no case.

sourclams wrote:Just pointing out that you can't argue that codex rules simultaneously take precedence and do nothing in the same breath.

The leadership of the Mob is the number of Orks, the leadership of the model is 7. Mindwar targets the model. All the codex rules are satisfied.

Can you point me at the statline for a Mob?

And that's why you have to make inferences.

sourclams wrote:Can you point me at the statline for a Mob?

No, I can't. Of course.

sourclams wrote:And that's why you have to make inferences.

Or you could play it the way I outlined.

Perhaps this has now become what's the stronger case?

The weirdboy precedent for LD, or Mob = squad != model.

I'm inclined to the latter.

And obviously more of us are not. This doesn't make you more right or more wrong. You play the game in a way that, based on nebulous rules, adheres to your judgment call.

Augustus5 wrote:No where in the description for mind war does it say to use a model's "base" or "unmodified" leadership value. So one would assume any affects that boost leadership either for a single model or an entire unit and don't themselves have a clause in them would be applicable vs. mind war.

An Ork in a mob is Ld7(10). It's the only way to conceptualize it since there is no such thing as a "Mob". The only way for it to be different is if there was some special rule defining what a "Mob" was, and an explicit statline.

Before I start, I don't like the way mob rule is writen but i do think that they should get a LD boost. I'm not a 100% on this, and i'm more or less on the fence for all of this.

-A Mob of Orks is in most case a squad or unit.
-Mind war effects the model.
-Most Ork models are LD 7.
So ... clear cut easy to understand? No we're talking about a GW rule.
-IC with 'Mob Rule' are a single model. In this case Mob = Model. This would explain the weird boyz LD test.

Since units don't have a leadership value, does that mean mobs of orks that are 10 models have Leadership 7? I mean, that seems to be the argument of the 'against camp'. The mob doesn't have 11+, so it is not Fearless.

If you're going to argue that the nob doesn't have Ld10, then I think you have to argue that below 11 models, the unit reverts to Ld 7.

And if any model in the unit would get a boost to leadership due to the number of boyz, it would be - oh, I don't know - the unit leader - you know, the Nob with the power klaw and bosspole that duffs any uppity boyz and isn't afraid to smash one in the head to restore a little discaplain.

This is a pointless arguement that will never end. It's like the arguement that Space Wolves don't have access to Land Raider Redeemers because it's not classified as a 'variant', so you don't know what they mean when they say '...and all variants.' Some people are going to play this way. Some people won't. Some will call the judge over for a ruling or be content to d6 the answer.

If GW wrote good rules and published good FAQs, we'd have an answer. GW doesn't write good rules, so we're left to make some interpretations. Be reasonable, play fair, and always take the least advantageous position to you - unless your opponent says, 'nah, that's silly, play it this way.'

BRB pg. 8. LEADERSHIP TESTS "Tests made against the Leadership characteristic (like Morale checks) are differant from other tests. In the case of a Leadership test, roll 2D6 (two dice added together, as explained earlier). If the result is equal to or less then the model's Leadership, the test is passed.

If a unit includeing models with differant Leadership values, always use the one with the highest Ld value"

Emphasis mine.

This is an important wording as its clearly saying a models Leadership Value is what the test is made against, not a Units or Mob. Just as importantly it is saying that the model with the highest Ld value is the value you use to roll against. But because all models in the unit have an identical Ld value due to Mob Rule, there is no need to make such distinction.

How is this important to the argument? Again I go back to Psychic Tests. A Psychic Test "is a normal Leadership test" that "must always be made on the psyker's own Leadership value".

In the case of a Ork Weirdboy, what rule is making that model count as having a differant Ld value then what is printed in the Codex? The answer is Mob Rule. The same Mob Rule that evey model in a squad of Boys has. Now, if Mob Rule changes that actual Ld value of a individual model (the Weirdboy) how is it not on the same token changing the actual Ld value of every other model in said squad of Boys?

Because it says so in the section on Weirdboy's? No. All it says is to remember that a Weirdboy has the Special Rule, Mob Rule when making your Ld test to use a Psychic Power. If a Psychic Test is always made "on the psykers own Leadershp value" and the psyker in this case is a single model in the Mob, and not the Mob itself, clearly they are saying every model in a Mob has said Ld value derived from Mob Rule. Otherwise the psyker would not be using his "own Leadership value" as required by the BRB, but the Mobs, as you define it. The section of Weirdboys no where states you can or are breaking this rule from the BRB. Without premission to break or override a Rule, you simply cannot do it, nor base any argument on it. Therefore the model has a real Leadership value totally interchangeable with what is printed in the Codex in its stateline.

Again, since all Ld tests are made against the model as quoted above, how does the model not have the reflected Ld value against Mind War as well.

You have no basis in rules to say that a Weirdboy in a Mob who was targeted with Mind War, would not have a Ld of 10 to resist with, if the Mob was 10 or more models. By the same token you have no basis in rules to say that any other model in the Mob would not also have the same Ld 10 to resist with, as all models have the same Mob Rule special rule. And no where in the description of Mob Rule or any other location in the Codex does it say it interacts differantly with differant types of models who posses that rule. So if a Wierdboy gets to use the Ld value granted to it by Mob Rule for a test that "must always be taken on the psykers own Leadership value" I see no rules basis to say it is not also making every other type of model with the Mob Rule special rule get the same benifit for any test that goes on that individual models own Ld value.

dietrich wrote:This is a pointless arguement...

Really? I suspect it has been an interesting read for many, isn't that enough of a reason?

dietrich wrote:...be content to d6 the answer.

Sourclams and I rolled a D6,... We tied.

dietrich wrote:If GW wrote good rules and published good FAQs, we'd have an answer.

Indeed.

Augustus wrote:

dietrich wrote:...be content to d6 the answer.

Sourclams and I rolled a D6,... We tied.

Does GW still have their flowchart? Is the next step a re-roll, or is it thumb-resting, comparing number of letters in mother's maiden name (with fewer letters winning), duration of marriage (longer winning, and you have to tell the guy that you're sorry his commitment to toy soldiers has been interrupted for that many years), date of birth, or whoever can scream WAAAAAAAAAGH the loudest?

Way to go Marius! What a detailed post.

Marius Xerxes wrote:...Again, since all Ld tests are made against the model as quoted above, how does the model not have the reflected Ld value against Mind War as well.

...because being the target of a mindwar is not a leadership test or psychic check.

How can an Ork win a mind war with an ageless being?

Just food for thought :-p