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Because the raw psychic potentail that flows through/generated by each of the component orks combines into a massive psychic energy field interfeering with even the strongest psykers.

Ahem : WAAAGGHHH!

I have to agree with Tri's argument that an Ork Independent Character with Mob Rule is a Mob, and when attached to a larger ork unit gets to use the size of the larger unit as its Leadership value against Mind War, due to the Weird Boyz precendent. So the Mekboy or Warboss in a mob of 10 orks gets a LD 10 for the purposes of Mind War.

But regular orks, or characters which aren't independent characters, however, would be more vulnerable to Mind War sniping because a model, such as a Painboy, isn't a Mob. So, the poor Gretchin has to make due with his Ld 5 against Mind War.

Did the discussion end up split last time because both sides wanted it all their own way, or what?

It's impossible to "win" a mind war against a farseer if you are not a farseer yourself. If you are strong willed you can escape with your mind and body still intact, that's all.

BTW, grots have no Mob rule!.

This argument seems to be a little too focused. There's more to the mob rule than what you guys are using.

"Mob Rule
Ork Psychology and morale is directly linked to the number of Boyz around them at any given time. An Ork with a trukkload of his mates backing him up is a good sight more confident than one with just his half-wit mate Zog at his heels! Because of this, Ork mobs may always choose to substitute the number of Orks in their mob for their normal leadership value. If an Ork mob numbers 11 or more models, it has the fearless special rule."

The important points previously ignored in this section of the rules come in those first 2 sentences. They reference an individual Ork being more confident when backed up by his mates.

Nowhere in this rule does it mention a restriction as to what the rule can be used for. This is not a leadership test modifier. I think this point was adequately covered earlier in the thread.

So the rule, not the fluff, tells us this applies to each and every Ork. No inferences needed, this is explicit. The mob has the same leadership value because each boy benefits from the rule and is the same leadership as all of his mates. Unless, of course, his mates happen to be a half-wit named Zog.

Gitzbitah wrote:"Ork Psychology and morale is directly linked to the number of Boyz around them at any given time. An Ork with a trukkload of his mates backing him up is a good sight more confident than one with just his half-wit mate Zog at his heels! Because of this, ...."

Which is all meaningless fluff. Or maybe it only works when there is a truck load of Orks? How many is that? Do they have to be truckboys? Do they have to be mates? Are there female Orks in the unit? Are Orks Polygamists, can they even have mates? Is it the australian "Mate" as in friend...? What if Zog is killed, then does it still work....

Still think thats a rule?

Gitzbitah wrote:The important points previously ignored in this section of the rules come in those first 2 sentences.

Please go back to fluffland.

Gitzbitah wrote:So the rule, not the fluff, tells us this applies to each and every Ork. No inferences needed, this is explicit.

You couldn't be more wrong.

Some posters in this thread are advocating that "Mob" is undefined and that Mobs don't have a statline.

If that were true when the morale rules reference Unit, not Mob, so if a Mob is NOT a unit, then substituing Mob leadership even for LD checks or Psychic checks (which being targeted by mindwar is NOT) wouldn't even work.

A Mob is a Unit.
A Mindwar attack is NOT a psychic check for the target.
A Mindwar attack roll is not a LD test.
The Mob Rule works only for Mobs, or Units, not models.
A weirdboy psychic check is a (poorly worded) special case, addressed in it's own entry in the Ork codex.

Individual Orks targeted by Mindwar use the stat on their statline regardless of what size Unit they are in because they are models.

Webbe wrote:BTW, grots have no Mob rule!.

Is there a Grot even worth mindwar?

It's humorous to think with Ld5 the best they could do is tie a farseer at 11. Essentially the seer just thinks about them being dead and they are.

That's kind of funny.

Gah ... Augustus you only need one post at a time and telling people to go back to fluff land isn't help full.

Summing up what you said ...
...Mobs are units and the unit can use the number of models for its LD test.
...Mindwar targets the models LD value.
...Weirdboy can only use the mobs LD as it has been FAQ.
...Fluff is great but we can only play with rules.

Grots don't have Mob rule, but their runtherders do.


Three pages and this discussion continues, I don't understand at all.

Every Ork model in a unit/mob/flotilla/crowd/herd/gathering has the same leadership. The model's leadership is determined by the number of models in that mob. If you point to one of my orks and say, "What's his leadership?" I'm going to count the number of orks in that unit and if the number is higher than 7, I'm going to give you that number (up to 10).

If you somehow didn't understand why it wasn't 7, I would show you the rulebook, my codex where mob rule is defined, and let you read them.

If you further had an issue, I would get someone else to try talking sense into you.

If you still didn't accept it well....then I would tell you to pack up your gear, because we're obviously not playing Warhammer 40k. =p

I agree with you Dashofpepper

The RB shows us that characteristics and values are attributed to 'models' and not 'units' as per pages 6 - 8 of the BGB.

The Ork codex tells us that 'Mob Rule' allows the Ork player to substitute the number of Orks in the mob for the leadership value of the mob.

The only thing the naysayers have to argue is the word 'mob'. But Mob is nothing but a another way to say "a group of Orks" and not surprisingly the same definition for a 'unit' in which in its definition it says "a group of models".

So where ever you see Mob or Unit you can easily substitute its definition in its place if it makes it better for you.

So, Mob rule can easily read "A group of Orks may always substitue the number of Orks in their group of orks for their normal leadership value (a value which can only be possessed by models per page 6 - 8 BGB)."

Each Ork now posses this new "leadership value". As proven by intention on how the Weird boy interacts with this rule. As per page 50 of the BGB last sentence second paragraph, only a psyker may use his **own** LD for any psychic power. Yet Mob rule allows the psyker to use this new LD value because it is *now* his LD value

This makes sense rules wise and common sense wise IMO. I really don't see how this can be argued.

And yet we're at 3 pages as people argue it. *shrugs*

Orks have mobs because Orks iz da coolest. Unitz is fer da stinkin' 'umie scum-suckin' tazwallerz dat tink deyz smarter dan da boyz. Ye stinkin' space elf stickmen iz askin' fer a good krushin too!

But really, we call our units mobs because they are. Units suggest disciplined formations of troops. Orks are mobs.

Dashofpepper wrote:Every Ork model in a unit/mob/flotilla/crowd/herd/gathering has the same leadership. The model's leadership is determined by the number of models in that mob. If you point to one of my orks and say, "What's his leadership?" I'm going to count the number of orks in that unit and if the number is higher than 7, I'm going to give you that number (up to 10).

...and you would be wrong, because the mob rule doesnt refer to single models at all, it refers to mobs.

Dashofpepper wrote:If you somehow didn't understand why it wasn't 7, I would show you the rulebook, my codex where mob rule is defined, and let you read them.

...and I would show you the only reference to "mob" in your own codex, not model, and the eldar dex reference to model.

Bah! Enough already.

Mob Rule applies to Mind War

Eldritch Storm doesn't scatter

Oz is over the rainbow

Because the ork has no thoughts other than "Dakka dakka" and "more choppy" and "might makes right". The farseer has all sorts of random thoughts blowing around his head.

Augustus, based on your single interaction with me, I'd have to be forced to call you a rules lawyer without understanding of the rules.

We're talking about Warhammer 40k, not Warmachine. You can target a model within a unit if your Codex says that you can, but as far as I know, the Eldar Codex (like I said before) doesn't say anything about negating rules that apply to other races.

When I have 9 Orks in a unit/mob/squad/crowd/whatever....each of those 9 orks have a leadership of 9. When a unit of anything...say crisis suits have mixed leadership, the highest leadership applies. The same applies to every race. There are two ways of looking at a rule:

1. What the BGB says.
2. What the Codex says about superceding the BGB.

Since you don't like either of those, and want to do 3. What Augustus thinks the rules should mean instead of what they are...

You get relegated to the status of troll.

Dashofpepper wrote:When I have 9 Orks in a unit/mob/squad/crowd/whatever....each of those 9 orks have a leadership of 9. When a unit of anything...say crisis suits have mixed leadership, the highest leadership applies.

From Marius earlier BRB quotes, that is only for Leadership tests, the mind war roll off is not a leadership test. The Mob Rule applies to units, a model is not a unit, therefore use the models LD, 7.

Dashofpepper wrote:You get relegated to the status of troll.

Find the maturity to admit when you are beaten, or make a better case. You haven't presented anything new here, other than an attempt to villianize.

Augustus wrote:Way to go Marius! What a detailed post.

Marius Xerxes wrote:...Again, since all Ld tests are made against the model as quoted above, how does the model not have the reflected Ld value against Mind War as well.

...because being the target of a mindwar is not a leadership test or psychic check.

Again you fail to see the line of reasoning I am putting here. If the game mechanic and wording follow the same path, for a Psychic Test and the model having to use its own Leadership value, just like Mind War, how do you justify one type being acceptable and another not? They follow the same principle and there is no differance made explicitly between the two types of test saying Mob Rule works for one and not another.

If in one case Mob Rule changes the models Ld it tests against, then it clearly has reason to stand just as strong against another. Psychic Tests and Mind War are not the same, obviously. But the mechanic for determining the models Ld it uses during said tests is identical. If Mob Rule applies to one, it applies to both since there is nothing said to limit its focus to just Psychic Tests.

As for who mentioned it should help IC's and not regular boys, there is no grounds for this. Mob Rule is the same rule set for every model who has it. The rule itself does not distinguish between IC's, regular boys, Burna Boys etc. Its the same rule that applies in exactly the same way to every model that has it.

Augustus wrote:
Which is all meaningless fluff. Or maybe it only works when there is a truck load of Orks? How many is that? Do they have to be truckboys? Do they have to be mates? Are there female Orks in the unit? Are Orks Polygamists, can they even have mates? Is it the australian "Mate" as in friend...? What if Zog is killed, then does it still work....

Still think thats a rule?

Yes, I do. Games Workshop is fairly regular about separating their rules and fluff. This not only came from the Ork Special Rules section, but also the very same paragraph of the more numerical rule you are taking out of context. The descriptions of how many boyz are required is not given a numerical value in that sentence. Instead they waited until later in the paragraph to explain the mechanics. Indeed, their explanation starts with the classical reference to previous material 'Because of this'. That's the start of the sentence which lays out how Mob rule works,for some reason pointing us towards the 'fluff' from the Special Rules section. The structure of this paragraph shouldn't be too difficult for such a connoisseur of Ork gender and culture to comprehend. Thanks for asking the tough questions about Ork 'mate'ing rituals.

Orks reproduce by growing new ones, there are no female orks.

The rule states The mob may substitute THEIR leadership for all leadership tests. As I recall, mind war is against a model, not a mob/unit, so therefore cannot use mob/unit rules, and thats if this was even a leadership test, which it clearly isn't, so the rule is voided anyways.

The Mob Rule Clearly states "May always choose to substitute the number of orks in their mob for their normal Leadership Value"
The Mob Rule is a special rule given to each and every ork in the codex that has "Mob Rule" in its Special Rules section.

According to Page 100 of the Ork Codex under the troops section it lists under special rules: - Furious Charge - Mob Rule - Waaagh!
Every Ork in the unit because it also states the Unit Composition is 10-30 Ork Boyz

you can not choose to give some orks some of those rules and not others. Every Ork has each.

By the logic of a Model is not a Mob then that means that when the Orks assault in to combat then there is only a single +1S and +1I, or when they waaagh and run in the shooting phase all of the orks from that unit have fleet not just one of them.

So essentially the sequence should be this:
1) Check to see if Mind War can be used by passing LD test, Correct? ( i don't have the Eldar Codex, Sorry)
2) Choose the target for Mind War...
3) Determine Targets LD... If Targeting an IG use the actual models LD not the Leaders LD per the Psychic ability, If you target an Ork check the number of others in his Mob/unit then ask the player which LD he will be using.
4) Roll a D6 and complete the psychic power.

So to recap yes the Orks can use the printed LD or the new Normal LD given to them through the Mob rule.

And yes the Fluff makes sense for him not to be able to work against orks as easily because the orks don't have as a rationale thought process then a lone ork or weak non orky race for they are truly focused ontheir intent! WAR!

My 2 cents I hope it clears things up...

Oh and GW is Notorious for sneaking fluff into rules, but they are getting better. and no it's not "they may not substitute for all leadership tests" it doesn't even mention leadership tests... it simply substitutes for their normal LD value.

AffliKtion wrote:Orks reproduce by growing new ones, there are no female orks.

The rule states The mob may substitute THEIR leadership for all leadership tests. As I recall, mind war is against a model, not a mob/unit, so therefore cannot use mob/unit rules, and thats if this was even a leadership test, which it clearly isn't, so the rule is voided anyways.

Must..read..codex..arrrggg

It does not say for leadership tests. It says "for their normal leadership value." Emphasis mine. No where in the rule does it specify what kind of tests it applies for, merly that the Ld value itself is substituted. There is a very significant difference. There are several reasons I bring up in my posts as reasoning it does apply to Mind War, and as others have pointed out, including Yakface in another thread, Mobs dont have a Ld value, nor any other Characteristic values. Only models have Characteristic values to to say a Mob does is making up rules that arent there expressly or implied.

Augustus, here's the reason you're a troll:

I KNOW I'm not bringing in anything new. People can quote the rules and show you the rulebook all day, and you will continue to sit here plugging your ears with your eyes squinched shut singing "LALALALALA" at the top of your lungs. All I'm trying to do is bash some common sense through your thick skull, without effect.

Some common elements of trolls:

1. They have thick skulls (you).
2. "LALALALA" is their favorite song (you).
3. If you were to take any given person, make them contort their face as described above (you) it would look like a a troll.
4. Augustus is a common name for Troll-kin.

So listen: I don't need to "prove" any argument to you. You have a contention with the rules. They're very clear about leadership - there's no debate to be had about this topic. You can CHOOSE to ignore the rules, in which case if we were in person, I would give you the rulebook and say "Prove it." You couldn't...because the rules and Codex are explicit in their description of how wrong you are.

Which is why I say this again: You're welcome to disagree, but if you wish to not follow either the 40k rules, or Codex rules, I suggest you take your army of little plastic guys and go outside and play soldier with them - because 40k requires you to adhere to a set of rules that you're intent on ignoring (while plugging your ears, singing, etc).

Gitzbitah wrote:

Augustus wrote:Still think that's a rule?

Yes, I do.

I begin to think for some Ork players, the Ork Rules work the same in the game as the Ork technology does in the fiction.

By simple belief in the impossible!

Take this with the humor in mind when it was written.

Marius wrote:Again you fail to see the line of reasoning I am putting here. If the game mechanic and wording follow the same path, for a Psychic Test and the model having to use its own Leadership value, just like Mind War, how do you justify one type being acceptable and another not? They follow the same principle and there is no differance made explicitly between the two types of test saying Mob Rule works for one and not another.

OK Marius, trying to keep an open mind, while not backing off that a Leadership test, is not the same as a Mindwar role off, I'm checking the wording, let's see:

BGB Leadership check : P8
"In the case of a leadership test, roll 2D6 (...). If the result is equal to or less than the model's Leadership, the test is passed."
(bold emphasis mine)

Eldar Codex: Mindwar P 28
"Both players roll a D6 and ad the Leadership of their respective Models."
(bold emphasis mine)

If I have these quotes right, as the ones you mean, then what follows is, if Orks get Mob Rule for a Leadership check by substitution, wouldn't they also get it for Mindwar because the context (wording reference to model) is the same in both rules?

I actually think that is a pretty good argument. I had to check my books tonight to see the wording. When I did though I found some more details. This really illuminates the Mob Rule, applying to Mobs, or units, (agreed to prior in the posts as essentially synonymous) being differentiated from a model's, because of the reference to a "Unit's Leadership" in the BGB morale section.

BGB Morale Check : P43
"Like all other leadership-based tests, Morale checks (...) are taken by rolling 2D6 and comparing the total to the Unit's Leadership value. If the score rolled is equal to or under the unit's Leadership value,..."
(bold emphasis mine)

This makes it clear, despite comments of "show me the stat line of a unit" a unit can have a leadership. The Mob rule applies to Mobs, or units. Individual model Leadership is not the same. Therefore:

Model != Mob
Mindwar != Leadership, Morale or Psychic Test
Mob LD=# Orks
Model LD=7

Affliktion wrote:...mind war is against a model, not a mob/unit, so therefore cannot use mob/unit rules, and that's if this was even a leadership test, which it clearly isn't, so the rule is voided anyways.

Exactly.

Tri wrote:Gah ... Augustus you only need one post at a time

*All responses consolidated into one post at the request of Tri.

LOL

I'll weigh in with my opinion, as everyone always has the right to here what I have to say!

;-)

RAW - I agree with Augustus that a mob is not a model - the mob is a group of models and the collective mob has an effective leadership of the number of members of the mob. The target of mindwar is an individual, and should as such use the individual stat line.

RAI - based off what it says under the Weirdboy, I'm inclined to think that the designers intended Mob Rule to work in this case.

As you were.

So if units can have stats, like Leadership..

Then when in the Ork Special rules it says "To represent their reckless bloodlust many Ork units have the Furious Charge special rule", are you saying that none of the models get the benefits of it, as the rules clearly say the unit gets it but not the models in the unit?

Because that is the same logic you are applying here.

And of course I know a Leadership test isn't the same as Mind War. I have said that repeatedly yet you keep beating it like a dead horse to.. fill up a argument against what?

I bring up the mechanics of how a Psychic Test and Mind War work as a comparison.. not the test itself. As you have as yet not refuted, nor able to by RAW they both go on the models Ld value. If Mob Rule applies to one test and counting the Ld value of the individual model as being differant from that printed in the Codex, then Mob Rule would apply to the other as well.

This is because there is no distinction as to what types of test, based on an Orks Ld value, that are or are not affected by Mob Rules benifit. It simply applies to them all. And Psychic Tests, being a test made on a Models individual Ld with no modifiers is the exact same as Mind War saying you test against the individual models Ld.

Again.. its not the tests themselves that are being compared. It is the Ld value they both require, and how you determine that value, that is.

Mob Rule is a special ability on a MODEL, not MOB!!!. Look it up ill wait... Mob rules is a rule on the Boyz profile. This means that the Mob rule applies to each and every model with Mob Rule special rule [FROM NOW ON MR for short] the Weird boy gets to up his Ld from MR b/c his profile has MR, the Bos gets MR so he can up his Ld from MR. MR does not say may only be applied to Ld test so we may then assume that anytime Ld would be used they may then use the improved Ld, UNLESS that case says to use the unmodified Ld. MW does not say that only the Ld of the respective models the Seer and what ever hes about to make head's explode.

I agree with Augustus on this one. RAW and RAI.

The theory behind the mob rule is that an ork in a squad of high numbers has good morale(not in gaming terms).
However, leadership value is different,even though in the game morale test are taken the same as leadership test.
A Farseer that is reaching into the mind of an ork is probably not fighting against the morale of that ork in a mob,but is likely undetected in his efforts to kill an over grown spore.

I know that I don't become a better leader in a crowd,but my morale is affected.

Augustus wrote:Well then, it's not the models LD is it?

Every model in a mob affected by the mob rule special rule gets to replace their leadership value with the number of models in the mob. Period.

I honestly don't see how this can be interpreted otherwise.

Blackarandras wrote:I agree with Augustus on this one. RAW and RAI.

The theory behind the mob rule is that an ork in a squad of high numbers has good morale(not in gaming terms).
However, leadership value is different,even though in the game morale test are taken the same as leadership test.
A Farseer that is reaching into the mind of an ork is probably not fighting against the morale of that ork in a mob,but is likely undetected in his efforts to kill an over grown spore.

I know that I don't become a better leader in a crowd,but my morale is affected.

Problem is, while it sounds nice, fluff as reasoning for a rule doesn't work. You can only use in a rules argument, whats stated in the rules. Not how well you can describe its fluff function.

Ld Value is a statistic given to roll for a various number of things. Unlike several examples from other Codeci that can affect what vale you use for the roll, the Ork Codex gives no restrictions like those others. It doesn't allow another value to be used only for Moral Tests, Leadership Tests, or Pin Tests etc. It changes the value for everything. Its a general statement with no specifics. Without being specific in its rules wording, you can only take it in the broadest of senses allowable. They give further evidence to this in allowing a model with the rule to apply it to a test that is normally only allowed to be taken on that models Ld stat written in the codex, with no other modifiers or substitutions. Mind War demands the specifics of the Ld value of its target in the exact same way as the previously mentioned test. So if Mob Rule works against the specifics as one test, why not to another test of the same specificity? Most importantly, this is because it is not said it only works in that one case.. it works in all cases where there is a Ld value to be tested on for every model which posses that rule.

@Marius Xerxes ... Good point but it falls short. Every ork has the mob rule but mob rule only grants a benifit to the unit.

"'Furious Charge' models with this skill ..." In this case the models benifit from the rule.

Independent Charictors are the only gray area as they are mobs of that may join other mobs.

Thanks to Augustus last post we can see that it is not a model that take a LD boost but the unit, squad or mob. If the Unit was to have to take a LD test of some discription then they can substitute the number of models.

Now as i said before i think that GW want to give orks a blanket boost to their LD but that it not what they've put.