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Did those Corsairs have a BSB? If not, they cannot take the Hydra Banner.

Could you give your impressions on the new Lizardmen? I expect to face them in the not too distant future.

I think the Skulltaker only KB's with his special rules in a challenge, which giant can't get into. Dunno for sure though.

Yeah he can only KB in challenges, so no chance he could KB a giant.

So his Dark Riders were not Fast Cavalry (shields change their status)?

Also, only the BSB can use a Hydra Banner as it's 75 pts.

This sounds like a 'tournament' in the Mt Gravatt GW Battlebunker with the amount of illegal lists or rules errors

Forgive me for not realising NG meant Night Goblins - yes terror and fear causing armies will always be a problem for Night Goblins; but thats a inherent weakness of *your* list; not a massive strength of the opponent...

With regard to Daemons and Vampires, I have found Vampires a much trickier foe to take on with my Savage Orcs.

Being a small army (the Ladz are expensive!) I really need to punch straight through in the first round of combat. Now, against Daemons this is relatively easy, as the sheer volume of attacks I get tends to see to that (and getting Bash 'Em Ladz or Waaagh! off helps immensely!). And if I don't, the Daemon army is usually small enough that I don't need to worry too much about flank attacks, just as long as I can engage multiple units in the same turn...

But Vampire Counts? The size of the units my regular opponent plays tend to be pretty large. He won't take to the field without 30 strong blocks of Skellies, and he is fond of 4 units of 10 Ghouls with Ghast. This causes me real problems, especially as I don't have a lot of shooting (2 Rok Lobbers, but I'm quite rusty on my guess range) to deal with the smaller units. MY best hope is usually setting the big man on his General. Kick his fangs out, and it's curtains for Lol's undead. Not a particularly safe tactic though, as it tends to be the Warboss coming off worst in those scraps (why I don't know....oh yes I do. My complete inability to roll 4+ when attacking!)

But when it comes to the armies being unbalancing, I just don't buy it. They are both crumbling armies, so many standard tactics needed to be adapted for a more protracted punch up, as the Boney ones and the Gribbly ones can survive the most crushing of defeats, and if it goes to a second round, there is no pursuit or free moves to get your arse out of the fire.

Like Orks in 40k, they have just caused a large shift in the Metagame, as before their recent book, Vampires were somewhat poo, and Daemons were a rarity as a pure army. Thus, it was fairly rare to come up against the 'crumbling' enemies of the game.

vampires use of fear Is great against orcs and goblins alike.

I for one am disturbed by the trend I see forming to discount the benefits accrued to sound tactical movement. With both Daemons and WOC (Albeit only on Nurgle) Even if I manage to hit them in the flank or rear, my advantage is negated by an army rule or ability. I fail to understand why the game is moving away from sound movement tactics to simply rush across the board and smash, my opponent can't stop me anyway

PapaSmurf

Its not the hydra banner, it is the sea serpent standard- causing frenzy....

As to skulltaker... bugger. I own all the books, but don't have time to memorise all the new armies anymore...

2 games today.

Vs a well rounded dwarf army, ended up loosing because skarsnik, BSB and 292 point unit broke, failed reroll and ran the required 11 inches off the table (I was on the enemies table side), all in the last comat of the game.

Then last game was vs an all cav (except cannon) Empire with Karl Franz on horse and stank...

ALMOST wiped hime off the table.
Karl Franz and 2 inner circle knights and 3 wounds on the stank. I had a brain fart last turn when I magiced skarsnik into the stank instead of shooting the 4 short range and 1 long range bolt throwers at it. :(

Giants- Woeful
NGs... surprisingly the spear ones ended up being most helpful.
Nets worked a treat.
Squig hoppers were good all tourney.
Bolt throwers- 1 is ok, 5 excellent.
Spider riders... absolute gold. I have 1 unit of 5, I want 4 units of 6. They are superb at so many roles in harassing the enemy, blocking marches, and going after warmachines. Worth it in every game, even if they didn't get their points back.

One of the big problems with the VC and daemon book is that immune to psychology has not been factored into their cost.
Add in an army that causes fear in either superb fighters (daemons) or mass tarpits of unkillableness (VCs) and they run riot over the other armies.

You have to factor that they cannot flee from charges, and that's huge. Vampire counts can use zombies as baits, though.

Greets
Schepp himself

Waaagh_Gonads wrote:One of the big problems with the VC and daemon book is that immune to psychology has not been factored into their cost.
Add in an army that causes fear in either superb fighters (daemons) or mass tarpits of unkillableness (VCs) and they run riot over the other armies.

Rubbish.

Skeletons cost the same as a Dark Elf Spearman. I know whose stats I'd prefer to be fighting with...

And Daemons rarely come in huge numbers, hence my earlier post about why I find them easier to take on than VCs with my Savage Orcs.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

Waaagh_Gonads wrote:One of the big problems with the VC and daemon book is that immune to psychology has not been factored into their cost.
Add in an army that causes fear in either superb fighters (daemons) or mass tarpits of unkillableness (VCs) and they run riot over the other armies.

Rubbish.

Skeletons cost the same as a Dark Elf Spearman. I know whose stats I'd prefer to be fighting with...

And Daemons rarely come in huge numbers, hence my earlier post about why I find them easier to take on than VCs with my Savage Orcs.

Yes I agree, skeletons definitely.

Same cost, and the ability to be reraised on a 3+ on 1d6 multiple times by nearby general and 4+ by other mages, then magically movemented (is that a word?) around the table/get another round of combat in, AND cause fear, AND never break (yes they do crumble).
Skeles FTW!

On the weekend we were dscussing daemons and the best idea to tone them down was that if GW had made the ward save not available vs magic and magic attacks. ala the forest spirit ward.

Makes sense.
Has precendent.
Allows you to kill daemons.
Brings them back to the rest of the armies...

@ Waaagh_Gonads - You're of course correct. It feels to me like they felt that the SoC demon lists were too weak and so they changed their saves to true ward saves. Then, they went ahead and boosted all of their units, but forgot that they had already removed their biggest achilles heel.

I ran a SOC daemon list (Tzeentch and Tzeentch and slaanesh) and whilst very copetative it was never felt by my opponent that they had little to no chance of winning, which is the overrideing sense by players with the new book.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

Waaagh_Gonads wrote:One of the big problems with the VC and daemon book is that immune to psychology has not been factored into their cost.
Add in an army that causes fear in either superb fighters (daemons) or mass tarpits of unkillableness (VCs) and they run riot over the other armies.

Rubbish.

Skeletons cost the same as a Dark Elf Spearman. I know whose stats I'd prefer to be fighting with...

And Daemons rarely come in huge numbers, hence my earlier post about why I find them easier to take on than VCs with my Savage Orcs.

Not true, VC Skeletons/Ghouls are 1 Point more expensive than a Dark Elf Warrior with Shield.

And while the DE Warriors have better stats, the Skellies are more reliable, cause fear, can be raised, and never run.

The real problem is that a VC player can start with units of 10 Skellies (probably ghouls) and after the first turn (or second) can end up with units of 25+ thanks to their slowed magic phase.

If you want to talk about effective infantry armies I would say that VC win that fight over the DE.

I hate to be the bearer of bad news but Skulltaker cannot killing blow a Giant.

A Giant cannot be challenged and Skulltakers Large target killing Blow only works during a challenge. Read it carefully.

As for the rest of this discussion. Well it seems I suck.

I have been playing a lot of Daemons and am getting it handed too me regularly.

I have played all Tzeentch and All Khorne. Am Working on Slaanesh and Nurgle and Combination armies of all of these.

When I play the top end players I seem to have difficulty or bad luck. And when I play regular players I usually do well and have bad luck.

Overall I would say I am doing 40% wins and 50% losses with 10% Draws.

Most Daemon units do not have an armour save. Only a 5+ Wards save. Enough magic missiles and Skink Blow Pipes make them disappear.

And the Always strike first of High Elves seems to be my personal bane.

While I do agree that Daemons are top tier. They are not overpoweringly so. (IMO)

Your All-Khorne list must have had too many Bloodletters. Never get more than 30, and its hard to go wrong with the rest of the list.

40kenthusiast wrote:Your All-Khorne list must have had too many Bloodletters. Never get more than 30, and its hard to go wrong with the rest of the list.

Sure it is, Bloodcrushers = WHFB Sadness.

[conspiracy-hat]It's a trick I tell you! They intentionally made Crushers sub-par in WHFB and Hounds meh in 40k to make sure your "Cross Compatible Daemon Armies" have to have a both sets of models![/conspiracy-hat]

Yeah Khorne hounds are very very good. So are flamers. And Bloodthirsters. And plaguebearers. Etc, etc.
Daemons should have the "daemonic save" not general ward (though I can see a magic banner making it a regular save for a given range). The load up on lots of cheap CR units made me chuckle a bit though. No offense, but have you ever seen what BLs/Hounds do to cheap troops? Heck, the big plaguebearer blocks will roll them. About the only daemon troops you want to engage are the ones they will keep away (like flamers)!

VC aren't nearly so bad without certain item driven combos. (If you are afraid of mass skeleton spam alone, you are doing it wrong.) But VC were very strong in their previous incarnation, too, and the lore just got better. All they did was make necros suck, so people load up on vamps!

DE are a very good list and have some truly broken combos that, again, are easy to recognize.

Makes you wonder what kind of testing GW does. Oh wait, that's right, none. Because they don't care- the rules are just a vehicle to sell models anyway. So don't worry Voodoo Boyz, ya ain't paree-noid!

Sure it is, Bloodcrushers = WHFB Sadness.

Bloodcrushers are vastly underrated, and I don't understand it. Just because they aren't as good as Flesh Hounds doesn't make them bad. Also, singleton Bloodcrushers are a Khornate list's only good charge redirectors.

Actually my all Khorne list had 30 BL with Command! 1 to 2 units of hounds and 3Blood Crushers (CMD)

Herald of Khorne on Jugger with Obsidian Armour (2 times) and Skulltaker on Jugger.

Have you ever seen what 3 Bloodcrushers with an Icon of endless war do when joined by a herald and Skulltaker on Juggers?

But if they get flanked they can be ripped apart due to instability rolls.

40kenthusiast wrote:Sure it is, Bloodcrushers = WHFB Sadness.

Bloodcrushers are vastly underrated, and I don't understand it. Just because they aren't as good as Flesh Hounds doesn't make them bad. Also, singleton Bloodcrushers are a Khornate list's only good charge redirectors.

I don't think it's that "they aren't as good as Flesh Hounds" it's that they're so VASTLY inferior to Flesh Hounds for the points.

Twice the cost for the same number of wounds means they present a bigger "SHOOT ME" target than a Bloodthirster with a bullseye painted on his Obsidian Armor.

And while you're right in that single Bloodcrushers are Khornate lists only good charge redirectors.....just don't play pure Khornate.

Plus, if a Daemon player really needs charge redirectors, a 5 pack of furies is still less expensive and does not tie up a rare. Bloodcrushers were way too good under SoC, but their current version is virtually useless.

Also, for the record, blocks of Bloodletters do work well when you plop the mounted herald in them. Other than that they are fairly useless. I did fairly well last GT season running multiple bloodletter blocks with that setup.