Lash Debate, details inside......

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**Airmaniac**

TheBloodGod wrote:
Ragewind wrote:
Centurian99 wrote:First thing...pavane or lash can't keep your lootas from firing. They're not moving in your turn, so you can still shoot with them (assuming they're not in assault, of course).

Second thing, going to ground doesn't stop pavane or lash from working.

2) Thankfully yes they do, once you go to ground you cannot take Pinning Checks anymore which lash does do (not sure about Pavane), go read the Chaos FAQ

Incorrect.

Lash most definitely works on gone-to-ground troops. "Whilst is has gone to ground the unit may do nothing of its own volition, but will react normally if affected by enemy actions."

This is further evident in the way it describes how gone-to-ground troops "Can Do Nothing until the end of its following turn." That would mean they cannot fight in combat in an assault. But the whole "reacts normally if affected by enemy actions" section is shown to take precedence, as "if assaulted, the unit will fight as usual"

It says gone-to-ground incapacitates you from making use of your unit, but it's treated like any normal squad if the enemy does things to it.

A Lash psychic power IS an enemy action and so they react normally and are moved, which doesn't contradict the rule because it only says "may do nothing of its own volition and Lash is movement of the enemy players volition.

Perhaps you should actually read the Chaos Space Marine FAQ on the GW website, before replying nonsense like this.

The CSM FAQ states the following:
'Q. Can a unit be affected by Lash of Submission more than once in the same turn?
A. Yes, as long as it does not fail its Pinning test.'

The above answer implies that units which are already pinned cannot be affected by the Lash of Submission, because it forces the target unit to take a pinning test, which it cannot take because it has already been pinned (pg.31, BGB).

**willydstyle**

And YOU should read the BRB FAQ, which says that going to ground does nothing against the effects of the LoS.

Two FAQ rulings that DIRECTLY contradict one another... a brilliant bit of writing there.

But, seeing as how GW has declared on their website that FAQ rulings (but not errata) are really house rules for friendly players to use, they should not enter into RAW debates.

TheBloodGod shows a line of text that definitively says, by RAW, that going to ground does not prevent the lash of submission (or pavane) from working. That's the actual rules.

**Lordhat**

I don't think that these answers contradict each other.

The unit that has GTG, HASN'T failed a pinning test, they have GTG. The result of a failed pinning test means the unit is forced to GTG. The Pinning test and GTG are not the same thing; The one may result in the other, but they are definitely separate functions within the game.

So the Lash works on a GTG unit, and will work again if said unit doesn't fail the subsequent pinning test (which in this situation they must take as it has an additional effect besides forcing GTG).

**JD21290**

this topic is done with and no longer needed, its now straying highly off course.
if a MOD is about then please lock this thread

**Lorek**

Oh no. I got yelled at last time.

Honestly, I think that there's still some discussion left here.

**Lordhat**

Yes, truly understanding how these rules work is essential in figuring out how to deal with them.

**olympia**

Nine kans and a dredd or two. Build a wall of walkers in front of your forces. The lashes won't be able to do anything except move people back or sideways. And nine kans will through out enough accurate shooting to kill a demon prince in one turn.

**skkipper**

you can prevent lash movement by intermixing your units and stay base to base

g g g
goooooooooooooog
gggggggggggggggg

you can't move the gretchin much since gretchin in behind the orcs needs to stay in coherency and the orcs are mostly blocked by the gretchin.

though hope he can't drop pie plates or flamers on this formation

**Lordhat**

MOST Fzorgle lists rely on blasts and ordnance.......

**skkipper**

9 kans
27 big shoota gak
14 hits
7 wounds
2.3 wounds clearly not enough to kill a prince

9 cans
9 rockets
4.5 hits
3.75 wounds
2.5 unsaved wounds

9 cans
18 grotzookas shots
around 12 hits
8 wounds
2.6 unsaved wounds.

kans don't have the firepower to kill a prince a turn

**willydstyle**

skkipper wrote:9 kans
27 big shoota gak
14 hits
7 wounds
2.3 wounds clearly not enough to kill a prince

9 cans
9 rockets
4.5 hits
3.75 wounds
2.5 unsaved wounds

9 cans
18 grotzookas shots
around 12 hits
8 wounds
2.6 unsaved wounds.

kans don't have the firepower to kill a prince a turn

But when combined with a squad or two of lootas, they do, and since the kans can't be lashed, the ork player can run them forward, keeping the daemon prince out of 24" of the lootas unless the chaos player wants to seriously over-commit his or her forces.

**Centurian99**

Airmaniac wrote:
Perhaps you should actually read the Chaos Space Marine FAQ on the GW website, before replying nonsense like this.

The CSM FAQ states the following:
'Q. Can a unit be affected by Lash of Submission more than once in the same turn?
A. Yes, as long as it does not fail its Pinning test.'

The above answer implies that units which are already pinned cannot be affected by the Lash of Submission, because it forces the target unit to take a pinning test, which it cannot take because it has already been pinned (pg.31, BGB).

No, it says that a unit that fails its pinning check cannot be affected by Lash (and by reasonable extension, Pavane). However, a failed pinning test is not going to ground, a failed pinning test LEADS to going to ground. There are other ways to go to ground, namely, a player can choose to do so.

Only if a unit goes to ground because of a failed pin check, will Lash (and by reasonable extension, Pavane) not work. Just going to ground is not enough.

**Razerous**

I think its slightly absurd that if your GTG it actually matters if you choose to do so or not. Its crazy-man application of the rules. If youve gone to ground by choice you can be affected by somthing where-as if youve gone to ground by failing a test you cant be affected by somthing.

Two identical states brought about by different situations nessicatate different reactions.

Id put forward that it should be a case of either/or. Either GTG has an effect on resisting the ability (reguardless) or it doesnt. By that logic if one case of GTG should resist the ability then both instances should.

Personally I feel that GTG represents the faluire of a pinning test. Where-ever thats a case of failing to roll or choosing to fail is besides that point, both equate to the same thing.

**willydstyle**

Since FAQs are not actually official rules, the rules book gives us a proper answer: units that are Gone to Ground, whether they reach that state voluntarily, or through being pinned, are still affected normally by enemy actions.

**Lordhat**

Razerous wrote:I think its slightly absurd......

It's GW. OF course the rules are Slightly Absurd. However, voluntarily moving a unit and then GTG is NOT the same as "lashing yourself'. The FAQ states what affects the Lash (namely a previous lash.) Note that even being pinned earlier won't stop a Lash, ONLY the pinning result from a lash stops it.

**JD21290**

Iorek, discussion or not mate, as its been said, the creator of a thread can close it if he asks a MOD, but i guess not

i was thinking something along the lines of someone making thier own thread about it, rather than hijacking mine and dragging everything off topic.

**TheBloodGod**

JD21290 wrote:Iorek, discussion or not mate, as its been said, the creator of a thread can close it if he asks a MOD, but i guess not

i was thinking something along the lines of someone making thier own thread about it, rather than hijacking mine and dragging everything off topic.

As far as I could tell, your post is specifically about Lash of Submission. It's not hijacking to discuss the very subject of a thread.

It does seem kind of rude to say, "I want you to delete everyone else's comments because they're talking to each other about the subject and not all saying what I want them to say."

**TheBloodGod**

Razerous wrote:I think its slightly absurd that if your GTG it actually matters if you choose to do so or not. Its crazy-man application of the rules. If youve gone to ground by choice you can be affected by somthing where-as if youve gone to ground by failing a test you cant be affected by somthing.

Two identical states brought about by different situations nessicatate different reactions.

Id put forward that it should be a case of either/or. Either GTG has an effect on resisting the ability (reguardless) or it doesnt. By that logic if one case of GTG should resist the ability then both instances should.

Personally I feel that GTG represents the faluire of a pinning test. Where-ever thats a case of failing to roll or choosing to fail is besides that point, both equate to the same thing.

I think it's completely absurd to try to say your troops are gonna be like "Oh no, I'm being affected by a thousand year old demon's mighty psychic powers forcing me to dance like a puppet to his whims, I should just lay down and be completely immune."

I didn't know regular guardsmen troopers were trained to the pinnacle of anti-psyker mental fortitude. Or that "Stop, Drop, and Roll" makes mind-control impossible.

My earlier post clearly shows that you have no choice but to react normally to enemy actions such as a psychic power. If you choose to GTG, you haven't failed a pinning test. It says "Unit that has failed its pinning test" It does not say "a unit that has gone to ground." It also does not say "A unit that is pinned is immune to lash."

The technical wording would say that the way you don't get lashed twice is if one lash moves you and then forces you to be pinned. Then the other lash cannot override the first lash's effect.

Failing a roll due to the enemies actions, and just choosing to do something, are two separate things. The rulebook never says that "causes" are meaningless. The rulebook also doesn't support your argument that they're the same case. The FAQ (not errata, just a FAQ) itself shows how they are not identical states.

You have Not "Failed its pinning test" if you never took a test. It's impossible to fail a roll that you don't make.

Therefore both the FAQ and the Codex support that you're not immune to the enemy lashing your GTG troops, you react normally to enemy actions. Simple.

**TheBloodGod**

Furthermore, just to make sure it's a settled case.

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2030054_40k_Rulebook_Oct_2008.pdf

Q. Can a unit go to ground if affected by attacks that do not cause wounds (e.g. Lash of Submission)?
A. You might, but such a move would be foolish, as it would have no effect other than stopping the unit from doing anything of its own volition in its next turn. The rules are quite clear that anything the enemy inflicts onto the unit works normally, so in the example above, the Lash of Submission would still work normally onto the unit and the unit would still be 'gone to ground' in its next turn. In other words, the only benefit of going to ground is to increase a unit's cover save, so if you don't have to take any cover saves (e.g. you have been hit by a flamer), don't bother!

I think it's pretty clear exactly how things stand.

**JD21290**

As far as I could tell, your post is specifically about Lash of Submission. It's not hijacking to discuss the very subject of a thread.

It does seem kind of rude to say, "I want you to delete everyone else's comments because they're talking to each other about the subject and not all saying what I want them to say."

then you are very blind indeed.
read my origional post please, then you will see its not just about lash, infact, its how to deal with lash, not a full bloody run down on how it could or should work.

and i didnt say anything about posts being deleted, i said about it being LOCKED so that a new one could be made directly about the subject.

oh, and third, i was posting that to iroek, not a random person, generally when someone starts a post with someones username in it then that post is directed to that person.

**OddJob.**

Back on topic-
The masque isn't an independant character, therefore can't join other units and dies one turn after hitting the deck. Not a huge threat really, especially for orcs.

In other news, it doesn't matter how far your troops are moved during your opponents turn, you can still fire in your own (as many previous posters have pointed out). Lootas are a great answer to anything threatening to shift your boyz about.

**Kilkrazy**

Moderator:

OP has requested this thread be locked as he has the answers he needed and it is tending to go off topic.

Do people want to continue the discussion or would it be better to start a new thread?

**Lordhat**

Well, I see it as YOUR decision as mod, however seeing as how the OP has gotten what he wants out of this thread, I feel we can continue (OT) unless it hurts somebody's feelings.

**willydstyle**

I don't think the discussion is that OT, as it deals with attempting to go to ground to counter the enemy's use of Lash.

Granted, by the RAW rules for going to ground it doesn't work, it's still pretty on topic.

**Centurian99**

What's with this constant "mods please close this thread because my question got answered" thing that's been going. If your question got answered...fine. Why close the thread?

**JD21290**

i just wanted a general opinion on weather or not to close, someone think up a nice catching title for the thread and ill edit it so its a direct discussion, rather than a standard title about something different.

if someone wants to discuss how rules work then they wont be looking for a thread about how to counter lash / pavane.
they will be looking for a thread on how they works (well, lash not pavane)

or if any mods want to change the thread title then please do

**willydstyle**

You always have the option of unsubscribing if you don't want to read it anymore JD.

**JD21290**

willydstyle, i offered a way of sorting it out in my last post, but by the looks of it you prefer to ignore that and try and be smart, so ill be blunt and to the point with this answer.

**** *** [Moderator edit]

Language, Timothy!

Please remember the rule about politeness, and the penalties for persistent infractions. I don't want to have to take further action.