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all in all, purpose of this thread has been changed, to get an idea of what its about read down closer to the bottom of this page


-JD

Just as a point of interest JD you can't Lash Dreads: "Pick any non-vehicle enemy unit...etc" so the dreads isn't really an issue.

All the advice I can give you (i'm a lash user myself) is generally to just charge forward and get the DP's bogged down in combat, they may kill 30 Orks in about 3 - 4 rounds of combat (if they don't die, DP's are quite fragile now) but thats 3 - 4 rounds they aint using Lash, Also being as a Lootas range is 48 Inches just keep them on the back of the board, they can shoot anything with glee and the lash is going to take at least 1 turn to get their before he can start lashing, by that time he will be in the open and the lootas can do what they do best, churn up anything they shoot at.

Witchhunter inquisitor for when you get REALLY sick of psykers.....

pavane works on dreads
i forgot to state that it does and lash doesent.


last time i saw a pavane player he was using it to control assults, moving an enemy unit out of or into assult range of his own units.
this also included using pavane to keep ghaz away from masque the whole game. (ghaz only killed 4 daemonettes with his BS.

shane, im an ork player, so that isnt an option



also, i know his list changes alot, i have seen him running a twin KoS list, im yet to fight them, i know they are strong, but what sort of crap can i expect to get from them?




Edit: i am really getting tempted to change my list and take 45 lootas just to stop lash / pavane.
should be enough fire to do some damage.
masque is easy enough to kill in CC, but the bitch will just drag me out the way.

only other way i can think of is to take ghaz and a warphead.
ghaz gives me a nice 6" waaagh! and warp gives me the chance for more Waaagh! moves.
so hoping that enough extra movement will allow me to get close enough to kill the bitch before she starts annoying me.

The way I read the shooting rules you only count as moving if you moved in your movement phase. Lash doesn't even happen in your turn, so as long as you pass the pinning check your lootas should be able to fire.

once again, pavane causes this problem.
its used and classes the model as making movement.



Edit:
can anyone post the stats for a standard lash prince please?
Edit #2:
also, if someone has a few mins spare, could you please post the lash text? dont have a chaos dex :(
just want to know how tough they are.
lash doesent seem to be as annoying as i 1st thought it was, so i may be able to overcome that problem with about 40 ton of deffgun fire.

Bring non-Dreadnought vehicles. Give your Lootas a Battlewagon or three to camp in.

nurglitch, that is tempting to do (the later of the 2)
but i know the daemon player allways runs 2 winged princes, tongue grinder and a KOS, so they will kill wagons quickly, and im not sure, but i think he has some screamers in his list aswell, i get his list tuesday, so i got till then to work out a way of sorting this out.

no dreadz? sorry, but i allways run my 2.
they have allways done well, and saved a loss on more than 1 occasion.

Pavane is d6. Against your walkers you measure a turn around the circumference of the base. Keep your walkers facing enemy units with pavane facing them at 0 degree. Unless they roll a 6 they will be still be shooting on side armor.

G

GBF, its late, can you clarify that a bit please?

I will have to post a diagram tomorrow. I apologize for any confusion on my part.

G

its fine mate, i just didnt quite get the idea of what you were saying then.

Green Blow Fly wrote:Pavane is d6. Against your walkers you measure a turn around the circumference of the base. Keep your walkers facing enemy units with pavane facing them at 0 degree. Unless they roll a 6 they will be still be shooting on side armor.

G

You know pavane only has to hit right? After it hits, you get moved d6 inches. There is no armor involved.

Green Blow Fly wrote:Pavane is d6. Against your walkers you measure a turn around the circumference of the base. Keep your walkers facing enemy units with pavane facing them at 0 degree. Unless they roll a 6 they will be still be shooting on side armor.

G

Pivoting is "free" movement - you don't count rotation as part of movement.

typeline, i did think he was getting a bit confused there.


a rampaging dread or 5 is great, once they can get close enough to attack something :K

Janthkin wrote:

Green Blow Fly wrote:Pavane is d6. Against your walkers you measure a turn around the circumference of the base. Keep your walkers facing enemy units with pavane facing them at 0 degree. Unless they roll a 6 they will be still be shooting on side armor.

G

Pivoting is "free" movement - you don't count rotation as part of movement.

Agreed, with your free D6 movement you can, I would assume, finish the dreds D6 move at any orienatation (facing wise) you want.

Engage the paven of slanesh unit. Its only 18" and its a ranged weapon so keep things beyond that or charge in to CC.

Well, you can only shoot the Pavane 3 times per turn, and you can only lash two times per turn, right? What if you just flood him with dangerous, high priority targets? Rush his ass with everything you've got with the dangerous but expendable units. He pavanes/lashes them? Good, your big guns get to setup. He pavanes the heavy guys? Then your expendables get a chance to move in.

Snikrot Kommandos could be great for this.

You can go to ground and negate pavane, since it is a shooting attack.

As for lash you just have to tie the lashing unit up in combat. Try a storm boyz, or something of the sort.

Not sure what your army compostion is, but it shouldn't be that hard to keep the masque 18 inches away from lootas with an ork horde. Deploy the lootas in a corner, make a semicircle of boys/trukks/whatever you have around there. On your move, spread out/move forward. If you can't force him to DS more than 18 inches from your lootas or take a huge risk trying to drop into a space you left between the lootas and your army, I'd be surprised.

Also, as for the masque...a squad of shoota boys should be able to put down the masque in one round of shooting, no problem. She's 2 T3 3+ wounds. Heck a squad of slugga boys should be able to. Not sure where she'd possibly be where she's within 18 inches of lootas and not within 12 inches of sluggas.

Of course, this is just the first turn or two. I'd need to see how this terrain is being placed where they're being sure to get a masque pavane on your lootas, but you can't shoot the masque with anything. 12 shoota boys in a trukk? They have what, a 24 inch threat range?

Just in case there's a rules misunderstanding, neither pavane or lash makes you count as having moved in your firing phase needs to be wacked on the head with the rulebook. But if you're getting consistently pushed out of firing positions by a D6" move, I don't know what to say to help with that...

The only thing you should have to worry about is failing pinning tests, and the easiest way to avoid failing pinning tests is to have enough guys to become fearless. The other fine orky solution is to take advantage of those open topped vehicles and shoot from inside them.

Some other things to keep in mind: 1. The Masque is NOT an Independent Character. 2. The Masque has a 3+ invulnerable save, so if you can see her, shoot her even if she's in cover because it won't matter because she only has T3.

BTW, going to ground versus either pavane or lash is useless because neither effect causes a wound. If you want a really snarky rebuttle, read the entry on lash of submission in the CSM FAQ...

Going to ground prevents the unit from being moved, and it will increase the cover save for the inevitable Phlegm or Plasma cannon attacks that are coming.

First thing...pavane or lash can't keep your lootas from firing. They're not moving in your turn, so you can still shoot with them (assuming they're not in assault, of course).

Second thing, going to ground doesn't stop pavane or lash from working.

Centurian99 wrote:First thing...pavane or lash can't keep your lootas from firing. They're not moving in your turn, so you can still shoot with them (assuming they're not in assault, of course).

Second thing, going to ground doesn't stop pavane or lash from working.

1) Yes you are correct, no matter how much you move its on the enemies turn and as long as you don't move your units the Lootas can fire.

2) Thankfully yes they do, once you go to ground you cannot take Pinning Checks anymore which lash does do (not sure about Pavane), go read the Chaos FAQ

Ragewind wrote:

Centurian99 wrote:Second thing, going to ground doesn't stop pavane or lash from working.

2) Thankfully yes they do, once you go to ground you cannot take Pinning Checks anymore which lash does do (not sure about Pavane), go read the Chaos FAQ

So when exactly do you go to ground when you are targeted by a Lash of Submission? The going to ground rules state:

'After the enemy has rolled to hit and wound against any of your units, but before you take any saves or remove any models, you can declare that the unit is going to ground.'

Since Lash of Submission doesn't require rolls to hit and wound, you can never go to ground against the Lash of Submission because you can only do this after rolls to hit and wound have been made. The Pavane of Slaanesh also doesn't require a roll to wound. So units that are targeted by the Pavane of Slaanesh can't go to ground either.


Anyway, on topic, even though your Loota's have been moved in the opponents turn, they do not count as having moved. The BGB states (pg.29):

'Remember that if any models move, their whole unit counts as having moved for that turn, and this will prevent models with heavy weapons from firing even if those specific models stayed still.'

Earlier in the BGB, the word turn is said to be used as player turn. Therefore units that have moved in a player turn only count as having moved in that player turn, not gaming turn.


Since this is the case, you should be able to eliminate the DP's with LoS and the Masque, because neither are independant characters. You might take one turn of Lash of Submission / Pavane of Slaanesh, but after this you should be able to kill the psykers.

I don't know if this has been discussed in other threads but I can't see any way to try and say that GTG will stop a lash attack. If you had already gone to ground from previous shooting than yes, you can't be lashed, but you can't declare a GTG when being lashed. The mechanics as described in the BGB for GTG just don't work that way.

Back on topic, moving heavy weapons teams out of LOS so they have to move to set back up is always good fun and can deny them a round of shooting.

I would try swamping a lash list with as many Boyz w/PK nob Mobz as possible.

I'm not sure what to tell you about a Demon list as I have never played against one.

as for lash / pavane not couting as movement, thank you, ive let the judge know this, and i may have to start a poll later so he can see for himself (he is pretty decent)

so that isnt a problem, just need to keep them out in open cover (dont want to get lashes behind anything to block my LOS)

only problems now:

how much damage can a prince and 2 KOS do roughly?
ive looked at thier stats, just want to make sure i havent missed anything yet.
i know mass shooting should work, but im tempted to take ghaz just incase.

You shouldn't need a poll for this one...just point him to the rulebook.

A turn goes Move, Shoot, Assault.

What has happened in previous turns is irrelevant except for losses you've taken. He lashes during his turn. During your turn, you have move, shoot, assault. If your Lootas do not move during your move phase, they may shoot. Neither Lootas nor any unit in 40k needs multi-turn stationary requirements in order to set up their weaponry.

JD21290 wrote:as for lash / pavane not couting as movement, thank you, ive let the judge know this, and i may have to start a poll later so he can see for himself (he is pretty decent)

so that isnt a problem, just need to keep them out in open cover (dont want to get lashes behind anything to block my LOS)

only problems now:

how much damage can a prince and 2 KOS do roughly?
ive looked at thier stats, just want to make sure i havent missed anything yet.
i know mass shooting should work, but im tempted to take ghaz just incase.

The Keeper of Secrets is a fairly nasty fellow in close combat. Fortunately, he's only WS 8, so you'll still hit on 4's, but you don't get the bonus attacks for charging him, he WILL go first, he WILL hit you on 3's, he WILL wound you on 2's, and he'll probably deny your powerklaw an attack. And he'll probably hit-and-run out of combat with you, assuming he survives.

But he's only got a 4++ save. Shoot him dead with Lootas.

Ragewind wrote:

Centurian99 wrote:First thing...pavane or lash can't keep your lootas from firing. They're not moving in your turn, so you can still shoot with them (assuming they're not in assault, of course).

Second thing, going to ground doesn't stop pavane or lash from working.

2) Thankfully yes they do, once you go to ground you cannot take Pinning Checks anymore which lash does do (not sure about Pavane), go read the Chaos FAQ

Incorrect.

Lash most definitely works on gone-to-ground troops. "Whilst is has gone to ground the unit may do nothing of its own volition, but will react normally if affected by enemy actions."

This is further evident in the way it describes how gone-to-ground troops "Can Do Nothing until the end of its following turn." That would mean they cannot fight in combat in an assault. But the whole "reacts normally if affected by enemy actions" section is shown to take precedence, as "if assaulted, the unit will fight as usual"

It says gone-to-ground incapacitates you from making use of your unit, but it's treated like any normal squad if the enemy does things to it.

A Lash psychic power IS an enemy action and so they react normally and are moved, which doesn't contradict the rule because it only says "may do nothing of its own volition and Lash is movement of the enemy players volition.