Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

There is also the issue of KPs.
How many KPs does your list offer your opponent atm, and will multiple tanks hurt that? 2 Dakka preds are an easy 2 KPs compared to the 1 hard to earn KP that the LR gives. But, if you are already low on KPs then 2 preds might be worth it.

Also, how are you set for amor saturation?
If your only armor is 2 preds then they are going to die really, really fast. At least the LR has 14 all around to help absorb all the firepower that will be directed at it.

It all comes down to battlefield roles, KPs, point values, and armor saturation. Your list and playstyle will greatly decide which is the best tank for you. In 5th there is far more to consider than which tank give you the most bang for the points...you have to look at the whole list and all of the advantages of each type of tank, not just their battlefield roles.

If you only use your land raiders for shooting you're wasting half of his points, imo. It's the same thing with falcons, they pay for those transport option and therefore you are wise to use it.

As others have already said, for sole gunning use the predators.

Greets
Schepp himself

Schepp himself wrote:If you only use your land raiders for shooting you're wasting half of his points, imo. It's the same thing with falcons, they pay for those transport option and therefore you are wise to use it.

As others have already said, for sole gunning use the predators.

Greets
Schepp himself

Darn i was hoping Redeemer would make up the point cost easily.

Guess i'll have to convert converting the Terminators.


Does the Assault Terminator box come with both SS / TH + Lightening Claw options?

Out lets go over the advantages & disavantages of each:

Predator Advantages: Low points cost. Front armor 13. Can be geared for long range anti infantry. Can be geared to fire 3 lascannon shots per turn (at a higher points cost)

Predator Disavantages: Can't fire anything if shaken, stunned, or it has moved over 6 inches. Takes up a Heavy support choice no matter what. Only 1 Lascannon twin linked. Side Armor 11, Rear armor 10.

Land Raider Advantages: Power of the machine spirit. Multimelta upgrade option. Armor 14 EVERYWHERE. Large transport capacity. Twin linked everything (except flamestorms on a redeemer). Can become a dedicated transport if terminators are selected.

Land Raider Disavantages: Points cost. Fire magnet (not always bad but....). Lack of ranged anti infantry (vs a predator with autocannon & heavy bolters). Only two lascannons. BIG model (ever had a land raider break down on a Terrain heavy board?).

Predators can be very effective, however I'll almost never field a space marine force without a Land Raider. Plus I just love thunderfire cannons

LRC with assault termies. it rips apart infantry and you can give it a multi-melta for anti tank fun

@LunaHound : Why? Power Fists might strike last, but there aren't a lot of opponents you're likely to strike first on when it matters. Tyranids and Eldar (both flavors) are going first, so its up to your armor. All flavors of marine and Orks are a toss-up making tactical flexibility marginally more valuable. Guard/Inquisition and Tau should try to stay out of hand to hand. Assault Cannons and Storm Bolters are your friends!


Re: Predators
2 points of armor in the front are just not worth the difference in price. The razorback weapons options are superior for most applications of the predator anyway. Both are likely to need a few STR 7 or better weapons dedicated to kill it. They do mostly the same job and the Razorback is almost 25% cheaper with the same twin-linked lascannon. Adding lascannon sponsons costs over twice what a Razorback does while being a single target.

Oldgrue wrote:
Re: Predators
2 points of armor in the front are just not worth the difference in price. The razorback weapons options are superior for most applications of the predator anyway. Both are likely to need a few STR 7 or better weapons dedicated to kill it. They do mostly the same job and the Razorback is almost 25% cheaper with the same twin-linked lascannon. Adding lascannon sponsons costs over twice what a Razorback does while being a single target.

Yeah...you keep telling yourself that av13 isn't far superior to av11 when you are staring down 2-3 squads of lootas. They can only glance a Pred, but they smoke rhino chasis like they are nothing.

Even better face down Eldar SL WWs..they can't even touch the front armor of the Pred, but they wil put enough glances on your Razorbacks to assure that they are destroyed in one turn, too.

The list of units that smoke razorbacks, but have a hard time with Preds can go on for a long, long time. In short, relying on razorbacks as your primary dakka tanks is just stupid.

Also, no razoback can compare to an 85 point dakka pred. 2x s7 shots and 6x s5 shots a turn, with av13 on the front is one of the best dakka-for-the-pointsd units SM can field.

Finally, niether the Razorback nor Pred should have TL Lascanons. Lascanons are inferior anti-tank weapons in 5th ed. you are almost as well off with the free Missile in tac squads. You need MMs in this edition for reliable anti tank.

If any one knows there history in world war 2 the US supplied the Sherman tank ... it main rival was the Panzer tank ... The Panzer had thicker armour a better gun ... well it was an all round better tank ... any way it was worked out that to destroy a Panzer they lose three Sherman's ... So they made sure that they had 3 Sherman's for every Panzer... and the US could build them fast then the Germans could replace the Panzer.

The moral is if you don't care about losing a couple numbers will win the day.

Also ...
>if a tank has a lower side armour that's where I'll shoot. A Preditors side armour is no better then a Razorbacks.
>LasCannons have range when vs Melta guns
>and Missile launchers in a tac squad is a tac squad doing nothing (or half a squad if you CS )
>but i do agree you shouldn't go for the TL-lasCannon go for the LasCannon & TL-PlasmaGun its a much better combination

Tri wrote:If any one knows there history in world war 2 the US supplied the Sherman tank ... it main rival was the Panzer tank ... The Panzer had thicker armour a better gun ... well it was an all round better tank ... any way it was worked out that to destroy a Panzer they lose three Sherman's ... So they made sure that they had 3 Sherman's for every Panzer... and the US could build them fast then the Germans could replace the Panzer.

Yeah. But the Americans weren't limited to 3 Heavy Support slots.

Alerian wrote:
Finally, niether the Razorback nor Pred should have TL Lascanons. Lascanons are inferior anti-tank weapons in 5th ed. you are almost as well off with the free Missile in tac squads. You need MMs in this edition for reliable anti tank.

Melta's will make short work of Land Raiders, especially Land Raiders that need to be close to drop off their cargo. Also, since defensive weapons are only S4 now, a dakka pred is not really all that it's cracked up to be. A razorback is much more mobile, and can scoot around with it's twin-linked Lascannon all day long. The only problem it has is that it takes away the slot for the squad's rhino, so they can scoot around and capture objectives.

Democratus wrote:

Tri wrote:If any one knows there history in world war 2 the US supplied the Sherman tank ... it main rival was the Panzer tank ... The Panzer had thicker armour a better gun ... well it was an all round better tank ... any way it was worked out that to destroy a Panzer they lose three Sherman's ... So they made sure that they had 3 Sherman's for every Panzer... and the US could build them fast then the Germans could replace the Panzer.

Yeah. But the Americans weren't limited to 3 Heavy Support slots.

ah didn't make it clear i was talking about razorbacks my fault

Democratus wrote:

Tri wrote:If any one knows there history in world war 2 the US supplied the Sherman tank ... it main rival was the Panzer tank ... The Panzer had thicker armour a better gun ... well it was an all round better tank ... any way it was worked out that to destroy a Panzer they lose three Sherman's ... So they made sure that they had 3 Sherman's for every Panzer... and the US could build them fast then the Germans could replace the Panzer.

Yeah. But the Americans weren't limited to 3 Heavy Support slots.

As a gaming and history nerd, you sir have made my day =)

If I plan on using assault terminators, I would use a LRC. I would make sure to bring other tanks as well, so the LRC is not the only target. Otherwise, I can't see investing the points in a LR hull.

Alerian wrote:
Yeah...you keep telling yourself that av13 isn't far superior to av11 when you are staring down ...

Since a razorback doesn't need to maintain coherency with its squad, and just soaked up that fire from the loota mob instead of the side of the predator. Three loota mobs should have been able to get one of them in its side.
War Walkers should *not* be shooting at the front of the tank given the mobility of walkers (pivoting in the movement phase is beautiful!) so again we're depending on the enemy shooting at the thickest armor. All of my opponents tend to try to avoid this.
The core of my position is based in the fact that two thirds of the facings the enemy will engage are av11. I can't presume every terrain situation, but I can extrapolate based on a 6x4 table and the goals of both sides.

Also, no razorback can compare to an 85 point dakka pred.

An 85 point pillbox that gets to shoot one unit. It has its uses, but there's more tactical flexibility available to the razorback. This is a particular case where playstyle will have a significant impact

Finally, niether the Razorback nor Pred should have TL Lascanons....

I concur. Marines and twin linked Lascannons are a waste. Thankfully there's an option for Lascannon/Twin linked plasma to multitask.
As for the 'free' marine heavy weapon - ML has its place as a multitasker, since it hits about as much as the HB with the frag, and much further than the MM

Hehe...that's fine, you guys keep trusting in your Razorbacks. I really don't care

Load up on easy to kill tanks and hand your opponents free KPs. Honestly, almost everyone in our local meta has dropped Razorbacks.

Their primary purpose should be transport, not a wannabe gunship, since they are cheap and easy to destroy. The problem is that they only carry 6 guys, so when you don't want o combat squad (KP missions) your 10 man squad you bought it for cannot even get in it. In short, they are a poor choice for both weapon platforms and transports...do the math for yourself, if you con't believe me. Preds, Vindis, and Whirlwinds are far better dakka tanks, and LRs/Rhinos are for more felxible as transports.

Anyway, I don't care if you listen to me or not, as I was just giving my opinon to the OP, to help him out.

I will put in for the LR Redeemer. The twin-flame cannons can be quite useful, especially against horde-style armies. It's hard to get everyone under the templates unless you're up close, but if you do the AP3 and ignoring cover is very useful. You do lose a few models in transport, but sometimes you don't need them.