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Alpharius is probably dead. Gulliman fought him and came out top, but not even the Ultramarines are sure if Alpharius is dead.

If you think that you missed the entire point of the Alpha Legion IA article back in the day. The truth was that the AL have been spreading misinformation to their worst enemies, and that the entire conflict between Guilliman and Alpharius was a complete fabrication as there's no evidence or records of it ever happening in the Ultramarines' data vaults. Alpharius never fought Guilliman, and the only dead of those two is Guilliman (by Fulgrim's hand). Alpharius is one of these "the greatest trick the devil ever pulled..." type of characters, you know? Alpharius and his guys are the ghosts noone really knows about, terrorists who never even entered the Eye of Terror with the other legions after the Heresy and instead stayed hidden inside Imperium space.

Paul Atreides wrote:Yes, you got it right, lion el'johnson, leman russ, guilleman, sanguinus, they are the fantastic 4.

And thanks arbiterian, that was just what I was getting at. I know what planets the primarchs grew up on, but nothing about the planets. I heard something about angron and some gladiator-like arena, and how the emperor saved him and that angron was not very happy about it, what was that all about?

Ok, going through the Index Astartes series of books now, let's see if we can't put all this silly squabbling about who's still a daemon to rest...

SPOILERS APLENTY!!!!!

ahem

1. Dark Angels - Lion El'Jonson (MIA) - Caliban (turned into the Rock) - Caliban was a feudal world ruled by knightly orders. He killed all the Chaos beasts that haunted the forests, then went off on the Great Crusade. Upon return, found that Luther had turned to Chaos, had a big battle and destroyed Caliban, turning it into The Rock. Taken away by the Watchers in the Dark.

2. UNKNOWN

3. Emperors Children - Fulgrim (Alive, Possessed by Daemon) - Chemos (Quarantined) - Chemos was a harsh industrial mining world. Improved the science and technology and turned it into a civilised artistic culture. Fulgrim sided with Horus in the Heresy, and was possessed by the Daemon that lived in his sword. Chemos was bombed (but NOT exterminatus) after the Heresy and quarantined by the Inquisition.

4. Iron Warriors - Perturabo (Alive, Daemon Prince) - Olympia (Dead World) - Olympia was a mountainous world. Perturabo did not lead it, but was given control of it by the Emperor after his discovery. Olympians rebel before the Heresy, and the Iron Warriors raze the world. Perturabo sided with Horus as he hated being on constant garrison/fortification duty. After the heresy they hold out on Olympia, leaving it lifeless when they finally had to abandon it for Medrengard (their new world in the EoT).

5. White Scars - Jaghatai Khan (MIA) - Chogoris/Mundus Planus (Feudal World) - Chogoris was a medaeval world of plains and steppes. Khan led the plains horsemen against the city-dwelling tyrants and completely destroyed their empire just before being discovered by the Emperor. Fought on Terra in the Heresy, then disappeared while on a mission in the Maelstrom. Chogoris still exists as an Imperial feudal world. The new codex states the White Scars homeworld as Mundus Planus, though the map in the same book says Chogoris.

6. Space Wolves - Leman Russ (MIA) - Fenris (Feudal World) - Fenris is a VIKING WORLD! Very cold and icy and mountainous. Raised by wolves, and then adopted by the King, became King of Fenris. Russ fought away from Terra in the Heresy, then disappeared on an unknown mission soon after. Fenris still exists as a VIKING WORLD!

7. Imperial Fists - Rogal Dorn (DEAD) - Terra (adopted) - Rogal Dorn's giant space fleet met up with the Emperor's near Inwit, but his actual homeworld isn't recorded. It seems that he had control of a small empire, or just lived on a giant space fleet, who knows? Anyway, the Imperial Fists relocated to the Emperor's Palace on Terra. After the heresy, Dorn died in a giant space battle with a Chaos fleet.

8. Night Lords - Konrad Curze (Night Haunter) (DEAD) - Nostromo (Destroyed) - Nostromo was a permanently dark, polluted industrial world. He grew up as a terrifying feral beast in the city, preying on and eating people. Eventually became BATMAN, a violent vigilante who killed all the criminals and corrupt politicians. He then took over rule of Nostromo through the remaining, terrified, politicians. Night Lords destroyed Nostromo before the Heresy. Curze was killed by an Imperial Assassin after the heresy. He didn't defend himself, and let himself be killed.

9. Blood Angels - Sanguinius (DEAD) - Baal (Imperial World) - Baal is a radioactive wasteland populated by tribes of humans and radioactive mutants. Sanguinius united the human tribes and killed all the mutants. He was killed by Horus in the Heresy, at which point all the Blood Angels became CRAZY. Baal still exists as the Blood Angels homeworld.

10. Iron Hands - Ferrus Manus (DEAD) - Medusa (Imperial World) - Medusa is a polluted world inhabited by wandering industrialised clans in great big juggernaut vehicles. Ferrus Manus had living metal hands, and became a well-known hero of the clans and killed lots of monsters. At the start of the Heresy he was caught on Istvaan and killed, though nobody found the body.

11. UNKNOWN

12. World Eaters - Angron (Daemon Prince) - Unknown - Found on a technologically advanced world where the rulers lived in luxury and oppressed everyone else. Became a pit fighter, implanted with ANGRY BIONICS, led a spartacus-like slave revolt. Just as the slaves were about to lose, the Emperor rescued Angron, which he resented. Angron implanted all the World Eaters with ANGRY BIONICS too, and they all went off into angry warbands after the heresy.

13. Ultramarines - Roboute Guilliman (DEADish) - Ultramar (11 Imperial Worlds) - Guilliman was found on rocky, mountainous Macragge, and became ruler of the utopian empire of Ultramar, consisting of 11 civilised worlds. Ultramarines were the biggest legion. Was tricked into being on the Eastern Fringe in the Heresy, but this meant that the legion was untouched by fighting and able to hold the Imperium together in the aftermath. This is why most chapters descend from the Ultramarines. Killed with a poisoned weapon by Fulgrim long after the Heresy. Entombed in stasis on Macragge in the hopes that his wound will heal

14. Death Guard - Mortarion (Daemon Prince) - Barbarus (Destroyed) - Barbarus was an incredibly toxic, polluted world, rules by alien/chaos overlords. Raised by an overlord as an heir. When he discovered the humans living below, he led the humans in revolt and killed the overlords. Was stranded in the warp during the heresy, and turned to Nurgle. No record of what happened to Barbarus, but C:SM lists it as destroyed.

15. Thousand Sons - Magnus the Red (Daemon Prince) - Prospero (Dead World) - Prospero was a beautiful, civilised world of psykers. Magnus became the best wizard of all. During the heresy, he tried to warn the Emperor using sorcery, but the Emperor hated sorcery, so he sent the Space Wolves to destroy them. Prospero is not a dead world, declared Purgatus, and Magnus lives on the Planet of the Sorcerors in the Eye.

16. Black Legion/Sons of Horus/Luna Wolves - Horus (DEAD) - Cthonia (Destroyed) - Cthonia was a hive world full of violent gangs. However, Horus wasn't actually FROM Cthonia, and his homeworld wasn't listed. Apparently he fell really close to Terra and was the first Primarch to be discovered - maybe this was Luna??? Was corrupted by Chaos on Davin, led the Horus Heresy, and was killed by the Emperor. Cthonia either broke itself apart or was destroyed after the Heresy.

17. Word Bearers - Lorgar (Daemon Prince) - Colchis (Destroyed) - Colchic was a feudal, religious world. Lorgar became a great preacher but the ruling religion declared him heretic. The religion split, and had a big war, which Lorgar won. Lorgar wanted to venerate the Emperor as a god, but the Emperor was secular, so Lorgar turned to Chaos, corrupted Horus and pretty much started the Heresy. Colchic was destroyed by an Ultramarines battle barge after the Heresy.

18. Salamanders - Vulkan (???) - Nocturne (Imperial World) - Nocturne is a harsh, hot volcanic world, with lots of precious metals, and lots of craftsmen and blacksmiths etc. Vulkan became the leader of his settlement after killing lots of Dark Eldar. It's unknown what happened to Vulkan after the Heresy.

19. Raven Guard - Corax (MIA) - Lycaeus/Deliverance (Imperial World) - Lycaeus was a mineral rich moon, which was held in slavery by the ruling planet below. Corax led the slaves in revolt and removed the mineral support, then watched as the planed below burned out in civil war without the mineral riches. They changed the name of Lycaeus to Deliverance. Corax left on a random mission to the Eye of Terror after the heresy.

20. Alpha Legion - Alpharius (DEAD) & Omegon (???) - Unknown Homeworld - Alpha Legion were really secretive and led by twin primarchs. However, only the legion knows this. According to the Legion novel, they sided with Horus in the hopes that Chaos would win and thus be burned from the galaxy, thus achieving the end of Chaos at the expense of the end of the Imperium. They fought against Imperial troops, but on their own terms, not as part of Horus' forces. Alpharius was killed by Roboute Guilliman (or at least SOMEONE was) after the heresy.

A few things that should be added:
As far as I know the Watchers in the Dark are a mysterious race (?) of...something who live in the rock. Azrael has one to carry his helmet, so we can assume that Johnson is still somewhere in the rock.

I didn't know that Dorn was dead. But I don't miss him.

Guili...Gauili....Golli....that Ultramarine guy is supposed to show signs of healing altough that is said to be impossible in stasis.

Angron became a Demon Prince but got banished to the warp by some Eldar during the 1. war of armageddon if I'm not mistaken.

I refuse to believe that Konrad Curze is just dead. I'm sure there's more to it.

Russ said that he would return in the days of Ragnarok or something.

Anung Un Rama wrote:A few things that should be added:
Russ said that he would return in the days of Ragnarok or something.

He'll be naked because fluff wise they already found his armor.

greetz typhoon

Russ just 'walked away' from one of the great feasts. He took all his Wolf Lords with him except for Bjorn the Fell-Handed, who then became the Great Wolf.

I don't think it's confirmed that Dorn is dead. The Fists have the skeletal remains of one his hands, but not the rest of his body.

Ferrus Manus was killed on Istvaan and Fulgrim gave his head to Horus.

Angron was banished by the Grey Knights at the First War of Armagedeon. iirc, he slew a century of GK in Terminator Armor (as in, 100) before they managed to defeat him and send him back to the warp. (note: this is why I hate his APOC datafax. Sure, he's good, but he's not 'take down 100 GK in TDA good.)

Ferrus Manus was killed on Istvaan and Fulgrim gave his head to Horus.

Really? Outch, decapitation definetly scratches him of the "might still be alive" list.

Unless he has the unheard power to 'live without head' or the 'grow a new head' power.

In previous fluff, his final disposition was 'unknown'. In the novel Fulgrim, he's decapitated.

Thanks guys, especially you arbiterian, this was just what I was looking for.

dietrich wrote:

Angron was banished by the Grey Knights at the First War of Armagedeon. iirc, he slew a century of GK in Terminator Armor (as in, 100) before they managed to defeat him and send him back to the warp. (note: this is why I hate his APOC datafax. Sure, he's good, but he's not 'take down 100 GK in TDA good.)

I think it was Angron and his retinue of Bloodthirsters that killed 100 GK's, not just Angron himself. Makes it a bit more believable. Plus, who knows, maybe his defeat weakened him for awhile.

Anung Un Rama wrote:I refuse to believe that Konrad Curze is just dead. I'm sure there's more to it.

I think that's the point, that is all there is to it. Curze let himself be killed because he thought it proved himself right in the end.

Corax's story is actually pretty tragic:
After the Dropsite Massacre, he tries to change the Raven Guard geneseed to make it grow faster. It works, but the space marines go all pale and lose some important space mariney bits like Bletcher's Gland. He locks himself in his tower for a year out of guilt, then essentially commits suicide by flying into the warp.

Ozymandias wrote:I think it was Angron and his retinue of Bloodthirsters that killed 100 GK's, not just Angron himself. Makes it a bit more believable. Plus, who knows, maybe his defeat weakened him for awhile.

Even if it was Angron and 10 Bloodthirsters, I still say that his APOC Datasheet is pretty weak. I mean, his datasheet isn't even "can slay 50 terminators by himself." And isn't that the point of his defeat at the First War for Armageddeon? It weakened him and banished him back to the warp.

I think this proves why GW shouldn't publish Primarch stats. They'll never be as good as they are in the fluff - because not even marines are as good as they are in the fluff.

P4NC4K3 wrote:Prospero was destroyed by Leman Russ after he gave the Sons a beating on the world (Damn Space Puppies, we let 'em win!)
I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) but the Fantastic Four are the Primarchs who have their own Codices
Sanguinius
Lion El'Jonson
Leman Russ
Roboute Guilliman

OK Guilliman doesn't strictly have his own codex, but Codex SM might as well be Codex: Ultrasmurfs

Well there's also the earlier fluff that had Prospero being teleported into the Eye of Terror. There was even a short story about the 1k Sons, in desperation, trying to do the impossible to avoid the coming "hated" Wolves (teleporting their world).

I would like to see rules for the Primarchs. Everythings possible in Apoc.

Mekboy wrote:Corax's story is actually pretty tragic:
After the Dropsite Massacre, he tries to change the Raven Guard geneseed to make it grow faster. It works, but the space marines go all pale and lose some important space mariney bits like Bletcher's Gland. He locks himself in his tower for a year out of guilt, then essentially commits suicide by flying into the warp.

I think you have the details off slightly. Corax locked himself away not because the normal Marines were becoming corrupted, but because the accelerated production process usually resulted in the creation of degenerate monsters and beasts instead of Marines. Though the monsters were still effective in combat, herded into battle ahead of the Raven Guard to break enemy defenses, Corax was filled with guilt for having created them. He executed all the surviving creatures personally, locked himself away for a year, and then went off on some unknown mission to the Eye of Terror as penance for his actions. In a particularly hamfisted reference, the last thing he was known to have said was "nevermore."

Angron's back story is also darker. The gladiator revolt was about to be defeated when the Emperor arrived. The Emperor offered to save Angron but not his followers. Then the last battle occurred and the emperor kidnaps Angron right afterwards. This leads to Angron resenting the Emperor and his fall.

Fetterkey wrote:

Mekboy wrote:Corax's story is actually pretty tragic:
After the Dropsite Massacre, he tries to change the Raven Guard geneseed to make it grow faster. It works, but the space marines go all pale and lose some important space mariney bits like Bletcher's Gland. He locks himself in his tower for a year out of guilt, then essentially commits suicide by flying into the warp.

I think you have the details off slightly. Corax locked himself away not because the normal Marines were becoming corrupted, but because the accelerated production process usually resulted in the creation of degenerate monsters and beasts instead of Marines. Though the monsters were still effective in combat, herded into battle ahead of the Raven Guard to break enemy defenses, Corax was filled with guilt for having created them. He executed all the surviving creatures personally, locked himself away for a year, and then went off on some unknown mission to the Eye of Terror as penance for his actions. In a particularly hamfisted reference, the last thing he was known to have said was "nevermore."

They supposedly have a bird version of the wolfen as well.

thats right chaos players... be pleased with yourselves that you betrayed a living diety...

sonofruss wrote:

Fetterkey wrote:

Mekboy wrote:Corax's story is actually pretty tragic:
After the Dropsite Massacre, he tries to change the Raven Guard geneseed to make it grow faster. It works, but the space marines go all pale and lose some important space mariney bits like Bletcher's Gland. He locks himself in his tower for a year out of guilt, then essentially commits suicide by flying into the warp.

I think you have the details off slightly. Corax locked himself away not because the normal Marines were becoming corrupted, but because the accelerated production process usually resulted in the creation of degenerate monsters and beasts instead of Marines. Though the monsters were still effective in combat, herded into battle ahead of the Raven Guard to break enemy defenses, Corax was filled with guilt for having created them. He executed all the surviving creatures personally, locked himself away for a year, and then went off on some unknown mission to the Eye of Terror as penance for his actions. In a particularly hamfisted reference, the last thing he was known to have said was "nevermore."

They supposedly have a bird version of the wolfen as well.

not really bird versions of wolfen... but according to the slight bits of existing fluff for the RG, Corax cloned the GS, in an attempt to rebuild the legion swiftly. To an extent he was successful, however some of the "fast marines" became more beastlike, howling and insane. There was a rumored fight where the space wolves were trying to take a walled fortress. Corax teleported, or somehow transported his "beasts" (in the IA article, they are known as Weregeld, not wulfen thats a space pup thing) into the heart of the fighting at the gates, and won the day for the Imperium (he IS a master tactician and all) some of the few space wolves who saw these beasts knew instinctively what they were and kept that secret.

he locked himself in the Ravenspire towards the end, and a year later he walked out.

What Raven Guard fluff is there beyond the Index Astartes article and Shrike's blurb in C:SM?

The Angry Commissar wrote:thats right chaos players... be pleased with yourselves that you betrayed a dead guy on a golden toilet...

Fix'd it for you .

chaplaingrabthar wrote:What Raven Guard fluff is there beyond the Index Astartes article and Shrike's blurb in C:SM?

thats really just about it, beyond the quick paragraph in the Codex, and also anything on the GW website.

Ensis Ferrae wrote:

chaplaingrabthar wrote:What Raven Guard fluff is there beyond the Index Astartes article and Shrike's blurb in C:SM?

thats really just about it, beyond the quick paragraph in the Codex, and also anything on the GW website.

plus corax in "HH-fulgrim".

So its an "in the shadows" legion.

The Thousandth Son wrote:thats right chaos players... be pleased with yourselves that you betrayed the ONLY viable leader of mankind ...

re-Fix'd it for you .

1hadhq wrote:

The Thousandth Son wrote:thats right chaos players... be pleased with yourselves that you betrayed the ONLY viable leader of mankind ...

re-Fix'd it for you .

Well that's authoritarian thinking. Who says we need any one leader when we as a species are so diverse? I suppose the Emperor can lead all the bigots, xenophobes and evangelicals but I want a leader who offers more independance.

The Thousandth Son wrote:

1hadhq wrote:

The Thousandth Son wrote:thats right chaos players... be pleased with yourselves that you betrayed the ONLY viable leader of mankind ...

re-Fix'd it for you .

Well that's authoritarian thinking. Who says we need any one leader when we as a species are so diverse? I suppose the Emperor can lead all the bigots, xenophobes and evangelicals but I want a leader who offers more independance.

More independence?

Was possible pre-heresy.

But someone ruined that.

What i like to know is, how can anyone "support" chaos and dislike the "reign through power" theme every fluff has for chaos?

Could help to differ the Emperors plans and the High Lords execution ( changing?) of the plan?
Seems a lot of those in charge in the 41st millenia aren't up to the task.
Therefore the Emperor was/is needed.

Also: No Emp = no primarchs.

1hadhq wrote:
Also: No Emp = no primarchs.

Okay I guess that's true. I'm not so much anti-Emperor as I am anti-Imperium. Because I'm sure that he never intended to be a god and I do believe that he wanted what was best for mankind, but now he has become more of a symbol than anything else.

I don't oppose "reign through power", I oppose the Imperium's outright bigotry and xenophobia (Ordo Xenos anyone?), as well as their foolish devotion to a corpse. You gain nothing from that, at least the Chaos Gods give you cool powers and stuff. Whataver, it is just a table-top wargame after all.

Oh and Chaos is just waaaaaaay more metal.

The Thousandth Son wrote:Oh and Chaos is just waaaaaaay more metal.

Nice point.

Who is the N°1 in this category then ?

-Alpha legion = always hiding, so NO
-Black legion = Abby is an old fart, so NO
-Death Guard = ok they have the crazy looks.....
-Emperors children = maybe, if they could stay with one music-style. But possible the opposite of metal
-Iron warriors = name would fit, but maybe too techy.
-Thousand Sons = magic sound ? not really.
-Word Bearers = too bigot, maybe able preachers but real music?
-World Eaters = Stylish but maybe too crazed to even care about music.

Which legion / primarch / chaos-faction is it?

1hadhq wrote:

The Thousandth Son wrote:Oh and Chaos is just waaaaaaay more metal.

Nice point.

Who is the N°1 in this category then ?

-Alpha legion = always hiding, so NO
-Black legion = Abby is an old fart, so NO
-Death Guard = ok they have the crazy looks.....
-Emperors children = maybe, if they could stay with one music-style. But possible the opposite of metal
-Iron warriors = name would fit, but maybe too techy.
-Thousand Sons = magic sound ? not really.
-Word Bearers = too bigot, maybe able preachers but real music?
-World Eaters = Stylish but maybe too crazed to even care about music.

Which legion / primarch / chaos-faction is it?

Alpha Legion: hiding, underground metal scene.
Black legion: you know who else is pretty old? Ozzy.
Death Guard: doom metal, and plagues are totally metal song material.
Emperor's Children: okay you got me there.
Iron Warriors: industrial metal.
Thousand Sons: Tzeentch is the god of complex schemes and patterns, progressive metal.
Word Bearers: blasphemous heretics, black metal.
World Eaters: agressive and angry, thrash metal.

do you really think the Imperium could have survived 10000 years as a democracy? its leadership is stretched as it is. i will admit however that many of those in charge are completely incompetent. if the Imperium only had able leaders it would be pretty much unstoppable. i also think the Imperium should ally with the Eldar and Tau for the good of the galaxy. they purge all the races who dont deserve to live: Necron, dark eldar, nids, chaos, orks....