Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So what exactly is the verdict of this thread atm. My interpretation of what is going on is that FNP doesn't apply to wounds from AP1 and AP2, ID, and weapons that ignore armour saves. In the case of the AP3 or more weapon, they are still entitled to FNP for two reasons.

Reason one: As Waaaaaaagh! said, "The Weapon has to either "Never under any circumstances give an armour save at any time ever" or be inflicting ID (Or if the rules say it "counts as" something that "Never under any circumstances give an armour save at any time ever" such as a Rending Wound which counts as AP2).

Reason two: The FNP rule specifically says AP1 and AP2 weapons. The rule would state that FNP isn't allowed for ID, weapons that ignore armour saves, as well as ALL AP weapons.


Just my two cents.

Yep, I do believe you've got it. AP 3, 4, 5, 6, -, will not negate FNP based on AP or no armor save. They might still do so based on the Strength of the weapon, ie Instant Death.

Sorry for the slight Threadomancy but due to a recent discussion ( and several searches ) I thought I'd mention something: specifically in defense of AP3 weapons WOULD deny FNP on MEQs...

Page 75 - Feel No Pain... although this is a Universal Special Rule, the description of it is MODEL specific: ...if a model with this ability suffers an unsaved wound...

For the purpose of discussion lets go with a unit of Blood Angels - Death Company.

...this ability cannot be used against wounds from x-y-z... and any other wound against which no armour save can ever be taken...

And now for the purpose of discussion lets fire a round of Inferno Bolters at the unit of Blood Angels - Death Company.

-- Could someone please tell me when the Death Company ( FNP Models ) can ever get an armour save against an AP3 weapon ?

Try reading the rule. The rule says "and any other wound against which no armour save can ever be taken", not "and any other wound against which no armour save can be taken" (without the ever) nor does it say "and any other wound against which some models get no armour save but others do".

Since AP3 weapons sometime allow armour saves, you can always get FNP against them (so long as they don't cause Instant Death)

i agree 100% with Gwar on this one (which has to be a 1st)
it does state it.

Oh, that is so sigged and placed out of context

lol, its fine, i can allways call you a few choice names to make up for it

Gwar! wrote:Try reading the rule. The rule says "and any other wound against which no armour save can ever be taken", not "and any other wound against which no armour save can be taken" (without the ever) nor does it say "and any other wound against which some models get no armour save but others do".

Since AP3 weapons sometime allow armour saves, you can always get FNP against them (so long as they don't cause Instant Death)

I have read the rule. And as I pointed out it refers to model specific - not written as a blanket rule to cover all models with FNP. That would be like saying since Hellions HnR at I6 then all other HnR units test at I6.

Feel No Pain is a general rule, which the way is written would apply on a model-to-model basis:

"If a model with this ability suffers an unsaved wound..." insert model example: Death Company. "Neither can it be used against wounds... which no armour save can ever be taken" No armour save vs AP3 can ever be taken by the Death Company so their FNP would be denied

"If a model with this ability suffers an unsaved wound..." insert model example: FNP TEQs. "Neither can it be used against wounds... which no armour save can ever be taken" An armour save vs AP3 can always be taken by the FNP TEQs so their FNP would be granted

If you can see the rule the way it is written in the book then you can see how both examples would be accurate.

So you're saying that plague bearers never receive their FNP... riiiight.

Yes, the initial part of the phrase does specify a model, but the "against which no armor save can ever be taken" part of the phrase does not specify the model receiving the wound. If it said "against which the model can never make an armor save" you'd have a leg to stand on, but you don't.

willydstyle wrote:So you're saying that plague bearers never receive their FNP... riiiight

close combat weapons do not ignore armor saves.

willydstyle wrote:Yes, the initial part of the phrase does specify a model, but the "against which no armor save can ever be taken" part of the phrase does not specify the model receiving the wound. If it said "against which the model can never make an armor save" you'd have a leg to stand on, but you don't.

well, grammatically it is a continuation - the model being the subject.

Try this and maybe what I am trying to get across would make sense. Replace the portion MODEL WITH THIS ABILITY in the rule with an actual FNP type unit - for example Plague Bearers ( If Plague Bearers suffer an unsaved wound... ).

toxic_wisdom wrote:

willydstyle wrote:So you're saying that plague bearers never receive their FNP... riiiight

close combat weapons do not ignore armor saves.

So what? A model will get FnP against AP3, non ID causing weaponry. Period. End. Full fething Stop.

We have told you why, yet you refuse to believe us, focusing on an irrelevant part of the rule. Yes, the MODEL must take the wound/save whatever, but the fact is, the wording of the FnP Rule clearly states that it is only "wound[s] against which no armour save can ever be taken". That is why they list off examples of things that NEVER UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES WILL GIVE AN ARMOUR SAVE EVER such as Ap1, Ap2, Power Weapons, Force Weapons etc. Since weapons with an AP3 will conceivably let some things take an armour save, that alone does not deny FnP.

toxic_wisdom wrote:

willydstyle wrote:So you're saying that plague bearers never receive their FNP... riiiight

close combat weapons do not ignore armor saves.

Still, to say that the intent of the rule is that they will never get FNP from shooting attacks is still pretty ridiculous. I like to see that you've addressed the rest of my post as well.

We have repeated the same thing like 20 times already I think this is starting to become spam guys and I think we understand when FNP has no effect so stop posting the same thing please.
EDIT: If you STILL don't get it then go READ the rulebook instead of making people post the same subject again and again please.




-Orkishly

willydstyle wrote:Still, to say that the intent of the rule is that they will never get FNP from shooting attacks is still pretty ridiculous. I like to see that you've addressed the rest of my post as well.

Why would it be ridiculous ? Grotesques have a similar status but reversed - they can take damage well from shooting but die horribly in close combat.

Even if you replace the "this model" part of the rule with "plague bearer," here is how it reads:

"If a plague bearer receives a wound against which no armor saves may ever be taken..."

The second part of the sentence is still clear, and does not refer to the Plague Bearer's armor save, or lack of one.

orkishlyorkish wrote:We have repeated the same thing like 20 times already I think this is starting to become spam guys and I think we understand when FNP has no effect so stop posting the same thing please.
EDIT: If you STILL don't get it then go READ the rulebook instead of making people post the same subject again and again please.

Spamming ? No. I've added my two cents and replied to other comments. But yet my input has been ignored.

toxic_wisdom wrote:

orkishlyorkish wrote:We have repeated the same thing like 20 times already I think this is starting to become spam guys and I think we understand when FNP has no effect so stop posting the same thing please.
EDIT: If you STILL don't get it then go READ the rulebook instead of making people post the same subject again and again please.

Spamming ? No. I've added my two cents and replied to other comments. But yet my input has been ignored.

It hasn't been ignored. Several posters have in fact quoted you. You're simply wrong.

toxic_wisdom wrote:

willydstyle wrote:Still, to say that the intent of the rule is that they will never get FNP from shooting attacks is still pretty ridiculous. I like to see that you've addressed the rest of my post as well.

Why would it be ridiculous ? Grotesques have a similar status but reversed - they can take damage well from shooting but die horribly in close combat.

Well, lets see here..

First: Dark Eldar Codex is incredibly outdated, so to compare ANYTHING in it to a modern codex is analogous to comparing the Building Techniques of the Ancient Egyptians to the Agricultural Methods of Modern Day Belgium.

Second: Grotesques have a different Feel No Pain rule, so why bring them up?

Thirdly: To both of you, stop trying to argue "Intent". That get's us nowhere. The fact of the matter is though that Plaugebearers do get their FnP Roll against AP's - through 3.

And your input has been Ignored because it is, how do I say this nicely, utterly fething wrong?

willydstyle wrote:Even if you replace the "this model" part of the rule with "plague bearer," here is how it reads:

"If a plague bearer receives a wound against which no armor saves may ever be taken..."

The second part of the sentence is still clear, and does not refer to the Plague Bearer's armor save, or lack of one.

If a Plague Bearer suffers an unsaved wound, roll a dice. On a 1, 2, or 3, take the wound as normal ( removing the Plague Bearer if it loses its final Wound ). On a 4, 5, or 6, the injury is ignored and the Plague Bearer continues fighting. This ability cannot be used against wounds from weapons that inflict instant death ( by having a high enough Strength or a special rule to that effect; even if the Plague Bearer is an eternal warrior ). Neither can it be used against wounds from AP1 and AP2 weapons, power weapons and any other wound against which no armour save can ever be taken.

toxic_wisdom wrote:

willydstyle wrote:Even if you replace the "this model" part of the rule with "plague bearer," here is how it reads:

"If a plague bearer receives a wound against which no armor saves may ever be taken..."

The second part of the sentence is still clear, and does not refer to the Plague Bearer's armor save, or lack of one.

If a Plague Bearer suffers an unsaved wound, roll a dice. On a 1, 2, or 3, take the wound as normal ( removing the Plague Bearer if it loses its final Wound ). On a 4, 5, or 6, the injury is ignored and the Plague Bearer continues fighting. This ability cannot be used against wounds from weapons that inflict instant death ( by having a high enough Strength or a special rule to that effect; even if the Plague Bearer is an eternal warrior ). Neither can it be used against wounds from AP1 and AP2 weapons, power weapons and any other wound against which no armour save can ever be taken.

Wow, that's an interesting rule there! I've looked long and hard in my Rulebook, and I just cannot find it. I've found some things about models and such, but nothing about Plague Bearers. Who thought they were so special they had a whole rule in the Rulebook written about them!

And btw, you still have the "can ever be taken" bit. Can armour saves ever be taken by a "Model" against Ap3? Yes or No please.

Still doesn't change the "wound against which no armor save can ever be taken [emphasis mine]."

Gwar! wrote:Wow, that's an interesting rule there! I've looked long and hard in my Rulebook, and I just cannot find it. I've found some things about models and such, but nothing about Plague Bearers. Who thought they were so special they had a whole rule in the Rulebook written about them! And btw, you still have the "can ever be taken" bit. Can armour saves ever be taken by a "Model" against Ap3? Yes or No please.

Perhaps if you got off the high horse and did not ignore my posts ( because they're utterly fething wrong ) then you'll notice why I posted the material.

And btw, can Death Company ever take armour saves against Inferno Bolters ? Yes or No please.

EDIT: All I'm trying to get at is... the rule for Feel No Pain is written from the standpoint of a model-by-model situation ( ie - mentions model specific ). It is not written as a blanket rule for all things with Feel No Pain ( ie - units with FNP share the same characteristics listed below ). And because of this there is some room for discussion that could lean the issue ( AP3 denial versus MEQs ) one way or the other - sorry if you are too one-sided to see this.

What does that have to do with anything?
The rule does not say "FnP is denied if hit by a Shooting Attack that denies the model its own armour save". It says that it is denied by shooting attacks that never allow an armour save ever.

An "Inferno Bolter" (assuming it is Ap3) allows models with 2+ save to take Armour Saves against it, so it is not a Weapon that never allows an armour save.

Gwar! wrote:"...It says that it is denied by shooting attacks that never allow an armour save ever..."

Again, going with the notion that the rule in the book is written on a MODEL and NOT BLANKET perspective - a 2+ model would be granted FNP against AP3 weaponry but a 3+ model would be denied FNP against AP3 weaponry... Armour Saves page 20 - AP value equal or lower than model's armour save... target gets no armour save at all.

Sorry, thought this topic could be discussed with an open mind based on certain findings - rather it seems people have a predetermined stand on the issue and are not willing or capable of looking at the issue from both sides of the fence. Ciao...

But it is written as a blanket perspective.

It HAS to be or it wont ever work.

And we don't have pre-meditated stances, we have what's known as "The rules"

And for god sake, the fact that the AP3 denies Sv3+ a save MEANS NOTHING! It has to NEVER allow anything to EVER get a save to negate FnP.

And I showed you how, grammatically, the rule is not actually judged on a model-by-model basis, but you seem to be ignoring that...

It gives only 2 examples in the rules. AP 1 and AP 2 (for shooting) either follow it or keep arguing that an ork nob with FNP won't get a FNP roll against a bolt pistol which is AP5 ok toxic?




-Orkishly

Bookwrack wrote:It's essentially 'weapons which never allow armor saves.' So AP1, AP2, power weapons, things with special rules which say, 'no armor saves may be taken,' etc.

FNP specifically mentions AP 1 and AP 2 weapons as denying FNP. As Alerian posted earlier, it also says FNP cannot be used against "any other wound against which no armor save can ever be taken" (pg 75 BRB). Wound, not weapon. Doesn't matter what causes the wound, all that matters is that the source of the wound has a clause that says no saves allowed.
Bottom line, if the wound was caused by something that allows anybody a regular save, you get FNP, unless it happens to cause Instant Derath.

toxic_wisdom wrote:

Gwar! wrote:"...It says that it is denied by shooting attacks that never allow an armour save ever..."

Again, going with the notion that the rule in the book is written on a MODEL and NOT BLANKET perspective - a 2+ model would be granted FNP against AP3 weaponry but a 3+ model would be denied FNP against AP3 weaponry... Armour Saves page 20 - AP value equal or lower than model's armour save... target gets no armour save at all.

Sorry, thought this topic could be discussed with an open mind based on certain findings - rather it seems people have a predetermined stand on the issue and are not willing or capable of looking at the issue from both sides of the fence. Ciao...

I can see your point. However, open-minded has nothing to do with the way the rules are written. Your mind is equally as closed, by your own logic, anyway. I do not feel that this is a closed-minded discussion, as your points are taken, and validly refuted by what the rules actually say. There are enough qualifiers in the FNP rule to determine that the only AP values that would deny FNP are 1 and 2. 3, 4, 5, 6, and - shooting attacks will allow an FNP rule as long as they do not cause instant death. Period.

The biggest hole in your argument is - and I'll put it in terms closer to the argument you're making - the definition of the term "universal". FNP is a Universal Rule, thus it MUST be taken as a blanket statement.

KaloranSLC wrote:The biggest hole in your argument is - and I'll put it in terms closer to the argument you're making - the definition of the term "universal". FNP is a Universal Rule, thus it MUST be taken as a blanket statement.

Does the entry for FNP specify ALL UNITS -or- A MODEL ?