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Insaniak is right, the dread must turn and light up his friendlies.

insaniak wrote:

Drudge Dreadnought wrote:You identify what is visible before you pivot it.

Which would negate the possibility of ever turning to face a target in the shooting phase.


We're told by the rules that a model can be turned to face its target in the shooting phase. So, when it's time to shoot, you turn the model to face the potential target, and then you check to see if it has LOS. You can't check LOS before turning the model, because it's facing the wrong way... and if that stopped you from checking LOS, there would be no point to the rule allowing you to turn the model to face.


When there are two possible interpretations of a rule, and one of them makes no sense, it seems reasonably sensible to take the other one...

What you are saying about the shooting rules is perfectly correct. You pick a target, turn towards it, and then check LOS. But fire frenzy has its own rule, and is not nessacerily the same as regular shooting. So, what you are saying does not counter the argument being made for fire frenzy.

Alright... let's break it down (no, I'm not trying to be MC Hammer ).

Normal Walker Shooting Rule:

When firing a walkers weapons, pivot the walker on the spot so that its guns are aimed at the TARGET (assume that all weapons mounted on a walker can swivel 45 degrees, like hull-mounted weapons) and then measure the range from the weapon itself and line of sight from the mounting point of the weapon and along its barrel, as normal for vehicles...

Broken down:

1. Select TARGET
2. Pivot Walker towards TARGET
3. Check Range
4. Check LOS
5. Commence firing

Chaos Dreadnought Fire Frenzy:

The Chaos Dreadnought may not move or assault this turn. At the beginning of the shooting phase it must pivot on the spot towards the closest visible unit (friend or foe!) and fire all of its weapons against it - twice!

Broken down:

1. Check LOS
2. Check Range (for closest target within LOS)
3. Pivot towards closest TARGET within LOS
4. Fire twice

I think somee of the confusion was because some people were assuming that if it's within LOS then automatically it's in its arc of fire... which it isn't. You could be in LOS but not in the arc of the weapon (hence why you must pivot so it is able to be within said arc). Now the question is the arc of sight... would it make sense that if it is within the walkers forward arc is also its LOS? Yes. Yes it does. Dreadnoughts do not have eyes on the back of their um... body. Nor the sides. Another way we can look at it is this:

Assume there are woods to one side of the dread, and a building to the other side. You have a Chaos unit behind the dread and an enemy unit just further but in front of it and in plain sight. You roll the Fire Frenzy result. Closest visible unit would be the one directly in front of it. Since the Chaos unit is not visible at the beginning of the shooting phase, it doesn't need to pivot all the way around to shoot it... since it isnt visible at the start of the shooting phase.

I disagree.

Walkers are like infantry with an armor rating. They see 360 degrees. Their weapons only shoot in a 45 degree arc, but they see 360 degrees. This is represented by the fact that they can freely pivot after moving to shoot at anything they want, unlike a vehicle.

The only reason the rule even exists is because the direction a walker faces matters for when it is shot at, and it matters for when it becomes immobilized. They picked 45 degrees as the walkers firing arc to make it more realistic that the walker turns and faces its target.

What the weapons can shoot at (45 degrees) and what the walker can see (360 degrees, like infantry) are two different things.

As it says, "unlike infantry, walkers have a facing, which limit where it can fire". This doesn't mean that it limits where they can see, only where they can fire.

Actually I don't know if I even convinced myself here. But assuming you check LOS before pivoting just because you interpret visible to mean 45 degrees in front doesnt make any more sense.

Ahh but thats where you are wrong and right at the same time. Walkers are like infantry with an armour rating, and you measure the LOS from the "eyes" of the model.

The eyes on a chaos dread in in the middle of his torso and only sees ahead, its impossible to draw anything from its head to things behind it.

my obliterators have no necks either but they can see in any direction.

The only difference is that the obliterator can see and also shoot in any direction, while the walkers have to pivot to what they see to shoot it.

Really the question is - do they pivot to see (like a vehicle) and just get to do it for free, or do they already see (like infantry) and pivot to shoot (like a vehicle) for free.

No where does it say that walkers are also infantry, just that they move "just as infantry". "Just as infantry" and "are infantry" are 2 completely different things.

Obliterators are infantry and can see all around, but a walker is still a vehicle and thus has facings, armour values, etc... and since it has those things the facing generally dictates what it can and cannot see (as I cannot face one direction and be able to see in another, except through a clever series of mirrors ).

Obliterators are infantry and can see all around, but a walker is still a vehicle and thus has facings, armour values, etc... and since it has those things the facing generally dictates what it can and cannot see (as I cannot face one direction and be able to see in another, except through a clever series of mirrors ).

But you're infantry right? And you just said that infantry can see all round...

Weapon facing and LOS isn't the same thing. LOS could exist between two units no matter which direction the model might be facing. There is no argument that can be used to claim that dreadnoughts can only see ahead that can't be applied to infantry.

Weapon facings merely limits directions you can fire weapons in, if a unit stands behind a Leman Russ in the open that has had it's turret weapon destroyed the Leman Russ can still perfectly well see the enemy unit, it just can't bring any weapons to bear at that time. They serve to limit LOS for a weapon, not for the unit.

So given that the unit has LOS, it can turn pivot to face them and then shoot them to bits. Sadly this means that the badly written chaos dread loves nothing more than having it's back facing the enemy and shooting the pals that where behind it....

That old "360 degree" line of sight for infantry has popped up again...

That's 4th ed thinking. If you scour the rulebook, you'll never find once that it says such a thing. All it says is that LoS is determined by a "model's eye view."

Theres an interesting point I'd like to... point out, on page 16 of the rulebook: ""Many times however, it will be more difficult to tell if line of sight is blocked or not, so players will have to stoop over the table for a 'model's eye view'. This means getting down to the level of your warriors, taking in the view from behind the firing models to 'see what they can see'.

It continues...

'Line of sight must be traced from the eyes of the firing model to any part of the body of at least one of the models in the target unit (for 'body' we mean its head, torso, legs and arms).

Those bolded points CLEARLY (and boldly, I might add), state that you cannot see things from behind.

Also, when firing a vehicles weapon, you take line of sight from the weapon along the barrel.

willydstyle wrote:That's 4th ed thinking. If you scour the rulebook, you'll never find once that it says such a thing. All it says is that LoS is determined by a "model's eye view."

Perhaps you could tell me where the 'eyes' are on a Leman Russ battletank? Or a crisis suit?

That's what the original post was really about. The rules only give us one definition for line of sight... model's eye view.

Then in the shooting descriptions for a tank... such as the leman russ, it tells us to point the weapons at the target, then check line of sight down the barrel of the weapon.

So given that information, does a Russ even have LoS as a model any more, or can we assume that it would be covered by the entire arc that the weapon can fire?

Check the diagrams on page 59... they say "arc of sight" not "arc of fire". This is for their weapons.

Actually... it also states on how when walkers fire, to check LOS from the weapon just as other vehicles...

ALSO on that same page, it says "Unlike infantry, a walker has a facing, which influences where it can fire (see below) and its Armour Value when fired at."

You all seem to be ignoring the fact that you can pivot Infantry and Walkers in the Shooting Phase.

Gwar! wrote:You all seem to be ignoring the fact that you can pivot Infantry and Walkers in the Shooting Phase.

Thats not the point. The point is that the Chaos Dreadnoughts Fire Frenzy requires them to fire at the closest visible unit and if there is a unit that is visible at the start of the shooting phase, it will shoot that instead of pivot at a unit which it cannot initially see at the beginning of the phase.

Gwar! wrote:You all seem to be ignoring the fact that you can pivot Infantry and Walkers in the Shooting Phase.

Please read the entire thread.

TBH its clear they shoot the closest target, pivoting to shoot at it.

You are all reading too much into a battle report with people who haven't a clue about the rules.

I have not read this battle report you speak of. At first that's what I thought but then upon closer inspection and reading of the rules over and over, this not only makes more sense but also seems to be correct.

Gwar! wrote:TBH its clear they shoot the closest target, pivoting to shoot at it.

You are all reading too much into a battle report with people who haven't a clue about the rules.

The battle report in question was simply what spurred me to look up the pertinent rules. I think if you read the rules leaving 4th ed behind, you'll find that facing of models actually matters in 5th ed, but the problem lies in that facing is so nebulous and is not really defined by the rules. We are simply given no indication of what "arc" a models-eye-view represents.

Page 11 or rulebook says:

Turning and Facing: As you move the models in a unit, they can turn to face in any direction, without affecting the distance they are able to cover. Infantry models can also be turned to face their targets in the Shooting Phase, so don't worry about which way they are pointing at the end of tehir Movement phase (although dramatically facing off against their foes is traditional).

This part of the rules assumes that models can see 360 degrees.

Furthermore, the rulebook (also on page 11) says: Infantry move up to six inches in the Movement Phase. This represents most creatures moving at a reasonable pace but stopping several times to scan the surrounding landscape for enemies, communicate with their commanders, etc.

Page 72 Walkers move in exactly the same way as infantry, . . .

Putting all this together, the Chaos dread moves at a reasonable pace scanning his surroundings, and he knows who is behind him and beside him and in front of him. To suggest that he does not know who is behind him when the shooting phase arrives goes against logic, the plain written rules, and the 'spirit of the rules.'

Feldmarshal Goehring wrote:Page 11 or rulebook says:

Turning and Facing: As you move the models in a unit, they can turn to face in any direction, without affecting the distance they are able to cover. Infantry models can also be turned to face their targets in the Shooting Phase, so don't worry about which way they are pointing at the end of tehir Movement phase (although dramatically facing off against their foes is traditional).

This refers to INFANTRY, not Vehicles (such as walkers).

Feldmarshal Goehring wrote:
This part of the rules assumes that models can see 360 degrees.

No it doesnt. The first sentence you quoted is regarding the distance they move. The second refers to INFANTRY models and that they can turn to face their targets in the shooting phase. Walkers turn to face in a similar manner (their weapons have arcs of sight), and have facings for their armour value and thus it matters which direction they are pointing. Assumptions do not work when rules are involved.

Feldmarshal Goehring wrote:
Furthermore, the rulebook (also on page 11) says: Infantry move up to six inches in the Movement Phase. This represents most creatures moving at a reasonable pace but stopping several times to scan the surrounding landscape for enemies, communicate with their commanders, etc.

Fluff does not = rules.

Feldmarshal Goehring wrote:Page 72 Walkers move in exactly the same way as infantry, . . .

Indeed. But sadly, we're not talking about how they MOVE but rather how they SHOOT. Their LOS (which is what this is about) stems off their weapon as they are a vehicle (also on page 72). Their weapons are fired the same as Hull Mounted weapons, which if you check page 59 have a 45 degree arc of SIGHT.

Feldmarshal Goehring wrote:
Putting all this together, the Chaos dread moves at a reasonable pace scanning his surroundings, and he knows who is behind him and beside him and in front of him. To suggest that he does not know who is behind him when the shooting phase arrives goes against logic, the plain written rules, and the 'spirit of the rules.'

I can agree with the first bit to an extent... I dont know if you've ever looked at a Dreadnought (I mean this in the nicest possible way) but for it to turn around completely to see what behind him doesn't make sense. Would he know whats behind him, despite that fact? Sure, why not? That's not what we're debating though. The FIRE FRENZY rule that we are talking about says it must fire at the closest visible unit, not which unit the Dreadnought may or may not be aware of. I'm not certain what logic you're using to ignore a target out in front of you, stop, turn around, and shoot something else. That is NOT logical at all. We're discussing the written rules and they say closest visible unit which would be something in front (and technically in the 45 degree sight arc of the weapon).

The fire frenzy rule actually says the model must pivot on the spot to shoot at the closest visible unit.

Why is it pivoting when it's only able to shoot at something in a 45 degree arc? not much pivoting there...

lambadomy wrote:The fire frenzy rule actually says the model must pivot on the spot to shoot at the closest visible unit.

Why is it pivoting when it's only able to shoot at something in a 45 degree arc? not much pivoting there...

Because walkers must pivot towards what they are shooting.

The rest of that sentence says "and fire all of it's weapons...". The 'must' is saying it is required to do all of those things. Also note Drudges post above mine.

The way I am reading this is that since the Dreadnought has a viewport/eyeslit/eyes it has a LOS to the front arc (ie its front armour value). It must pivot so that its weapons arc is able to hit the first unit in that arc. I will not deny that there are different ways to interpret this rule... but no matter what anyone chooses to use they will have to clarify it with their opponent first off, until a FAQ corrects this (yeah like THAT will ever happen... ).

Well i'm certainly going to present this to the redshirts where i play as what they say goes for that store.

every argument here has revolved around the fact that walkers only see 45 degrees in front of them - the firing arc of their weapons. Not that they somehow see 180 instead of 360...there is nothing to support that.

All I'm saying is there is 0 reason to pivot or for them to mention that you need to pivot if you're really supposed to shoot only something in the 45 degree firing arc. You're already pointed at it.

This is not meant to be a convincing RAW argument...just an example of why I think it's obvious that what that fool thorpe intended was for you to pivot and shoot.

Of course, maybe I'm missing something in the 4ed rules that made the sentence make more sense, seeing as this is a 4e codex.

insaniak wrote:

Drudge Dreadnought wrote:You identify what is visible before you pivot it.

Which would negate the possibility of ever turning to face a target in the shooting phase.


We're told by the rules that a model can be turned to face its target in the shooting phase. So, when it's time to shoot, you turn the model to face the potential target, and then you check to see if it has LOS. You can't check LOS before turning the model, because it's facing the wrong way... and if that stopped you from checking LOS, there would be no point to the rule allowing you to turn the model to face.


When there are two possible interpretations of a rule, and one of them makes no sense, it seems reasonably sensible to take the other one...

Just because it doesn't make sense to you, doesn't mean it doesn't make sense to other people, so don't get all hot and bothered about something in an argument.

If all units are treated as targets for this special rule, and the Dread shoots at the closest VISIBLE unit, why would it do a complete turn around to shoot at something that is presumably closer? The dread doesn't know its closer, what it knows is that the closest VISIBLE target(friendly and enemy units) is right friggen in a front of it.

The rules give you the OPTION to pivot so you can shoot at some unit, and once moved it cannot pivot again to miraculously get front armor values. Why would you pivot if you already see something clear as day in front of you, in the case of this rule? Tunnel Vision anyone? The 'must pivot' part of this rule is simply a precautionary to say that, hey, you need to pivot towards this unit(meaning a 0 degree difference), so then your armor value facings are different.


EDIT: And on a further note, Weapon LOS != Model LOS.

Feldmarshal Goehring wrote:Turning and Facing: As you move the models in a unit, they can turn to face in any direction, without affecting the distance they are able to cover. Infantry models can also be turned to face their targets in the Shooting Phase, so don't worry about which way they are pointing at the end of tehir Movement phase (although dramatically facing off against their foes is traditional).

This part of the rules assumes that models can see 360 degrees.

Actually, this does nto assume that models can see 360 degrees, it strongly implies that they cannot because otherwise why would they need to pivot in the shooting phase?

It doesn't imply anything of the sort. It strongly implies that they don't shoot their guns out of their rear ends or over their shoulders. That is about it.

lambadomy wrote:It doesn't imply anything of the sort. It strongly implies that they don't shoot their guns out of their rear ends or over their shoulders. That is about it.

Isn't that what I just said?