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A unit and a model arn't the same thing. The rule Democratus is quoting is for squads seeing through other members of their own squad.

"Visible" isn't the same thing as "in LOS without moving".

A unit behind a dreadnought is visible to the dreadnought - they are able to be seen by the dreadnought. Therefore they meet the criteria for fire frenzy.

The dreadnought pivots, so the unit goes from 'able to be seen' to 'actually being seen right now' and the dreadnought brasses them up, laughing maniacally through its daemonic loudspeakers as it does.

Boss Ardnutz wrote:"Visible" isn't the same thing as "in LOS without moving".

A unit behind a dreadnought is visible to the dreadnought - they are able to be seen by the dreadnought. Therefore they meet the criteria for fire frenzy.

The dreadnought pivots, so the unit goes from 'able to be seen' to 'actually being seen right now' and the dreadnought brasses them up, laughing maniacally through its daemonic loudspeakers as it does.

Again, this is covered earlier in the thread.

Drudge Dreadnought wrote:To me it seems to breakdown like this:

1) Identify what is visible, in this case in the models LOS. And since for vehicles LOS = Arc of fire, that means arc of fire.

There's your mistake. Nowhere in the rules does TLOS=Arc of fire.
Find a quote from the BRB or codex or stop making rules up.

Page 59. View it. Love it.

There seems to be several misconceptions flying around this thread.

First off, line of sight for vehicles, including walkers is not drawn from the "eyes" of the model but rather by "trac[ing] the line of sight from each weapons' mounting and along its barrel, to see if the shot is blocked by terrain or models" (pg 58).

The 'arc of fire' some people have been talking about is simply the arc that weapons which are glued in place are assumed to be able to pivot, even though they can't physically do so.

So in order to draw line of sight for a dreadnought you simply bend over the table and look from the mounting point of the weapon down along the barrel towards the target and you pretend that the barrel can pivot up to 45 degrees in either direction even if the model itself doesn't allow such movement on the weapon.


And THAT is how dreadnoughts draw line of sight.


HOWEVER the problem here, as has already been pointed out, is that the wording for the Fire Frenzy rule is imprecise in its use of the word "visible" and as such no one can conclude with any certainty how this should actually be played by the RAW. It is simply impossible to do so.

You can argue for twenty pages until the cows come home but it isn't going to change the fact that we don't know exactly what the author meant by the term "visible". It is just something you'll have to discuss with your opponent ahead of time and if you're a sporting player you probably want to go ahead with the least advantageous interpretation and stick with forcing the dreadnought to turn around to fire at friendly models, at least IMHO.

I agree Yakface. The problem is that with one interpretation Dreads are a crappy unit that should never be used outside fun lists. And in the other they are a decent unit that requires considerable managment but can be worthwhile.

yakface wrote:
So in order to draw line of sight for a dreadnought you simply bend over the table and look from the mounting point of the weapon down along the barrel towards the target and you pretend that the barrel can pivot up to 45 degrees in either direction even if the model itself doesn't allow such movement on the weapon.


And THAT is how dreadnoughts draw line of sight.

Not Quite
BRB pg72.
"When firing a walker's weapons, pivot the walker on the spot so that its guns are aimed at the target (assume that all weapons mounted on a walker can swivel 45 degrees,..."
The walker has no restrictions on pivoting. Therefore they have a 360 degree LOS
Vehicles firing have to have a target in their Arc of Fire and in LOS.
Nothing in the rules on page 58 or 59 tell us that LOS and Arc of Fire are the same.

Arc of Sight. That's what it says. Dreadnought weapons are the same as hull mounted weapons, ie 45 degree arc of sight.

Fire Frenzy rule states at the beginning of the shooting phase, you shoot the closest visible unit. Meaning it needs to be in the arc of sight at the start of the shooting phase for it to be visible. Dreadnoughts always pivot to face their target when firing. I think I'm going to go insane from repetition and God forbid I roll a 1... (yes bad joke... but seriously...)

SeattleDV8 wrote:
Not Quite
BRB pg72.
"When firing a walker's weapons, pivot the walker on the spot so that its guns are aimed at the target (assume that all weapons mounted on a walker can swivel 45 degrees,..."
The walker has no restrictions on pivoting. Therefore they have a 360 degree LOS
Vehicles firing have to have a target in their Arc of Fire and in LOS.
Nothing in the rules on page 58 or 59 tell us that LOS and Arc of Fire are the same.

I wasn't trying to say that you can't (or don't) pivot before drawing line of sight, just that there are some people in this thread who are incorrectly assuming LOS for walkers is drawn from the model's eyes, which I wanted to point out is incorrect. The actual process of drawing line of sight is done by looking down the barrel of the gun and imagining it can move up to 45 degrees (which happens after pivoting occurs, of course).

anticitizen013 wrote:Arc of Sight. That's what it says. Dreadnought weapons are the same as hull mounted weapons, ie 45 degree arc of sight.

Fire Frenzy rule states at the beginning of the shooting phase, you shoot the closest visible unit. Meaning it needs to be in the arc of sight at the start of the shooting phase for it to be visible. Dreadnoughts always pivot to face their target when firing. I think I'm going to go insane from repetition and God forbid I roll a 1... (yes bad joke... but seriously...)

And. . .so what? We don't know what the rules mean when they ask for the closest "visible" unit. And as has been pointed out, with walkers you declare your target, pivot the walker to face the target and then you'd check line of sight. So technically you don't find out if a target is visible until after you declare a target.

None of this functions clearly with the Fire Frenzy rules as written. You're supposed to select the closest "visible" target but if "visible" means within line of sight then you have to have already selected a target in order to check line of sight. . .it's a catch-22.

You can keep saying "arc of sight" until you're blue in the face but it doesn't change the fact that the rules aren't clear as written.

Ah. Yes of course, no argument then . I misunderstood your point.

yakface wrote:And. . .so what? We don't know what the rules mean when they ask for the closest "visible" unit. And as has been pointed out, with walkers you declare your target, pivot the walker to face the target and then you'd check line of sight. So technically you don't find out if a target is visible until after you declare a target.

That works for how walkers normally shoot (ie pick a target, pivot, etc). Since in the Fire Frenzy it is given to you (closest visible) you don't pick your target as it is already in essence picked for you (closest visible). Though on this yeah, it is hard to say what exactly the author of said rule intended (and wrote, haha) since there is very little to go by and it's not as clear as it should be.

yakface wrote:
None of this functions clearly with the Fire Frenzy rules as written. You're supposed to select the closest "visible" target but if "visible" means within line of sight then you have to have already selected a target in order to check line of sight. . .it's a catch-22.

As I (think) I posted before... the way that seems most logical is to check LOS, and if there are more than 1 unit in the LOS you pivot towards it and fire twice.

yakface wrote:
You can keep saying "arc of sight" until you're blue in the face but it doesn't change the fact that the rules aren't clear as written.

I'm just working with what is given to me and since that says sight, I'm pretty sure it means sight and not something else. You yourself explained in a previous post how LOS works for vehicles (ie walkers) and you were correct (as you supported the Arc of Sight (hopefully that's the last time I'll ever utter/type those words)).

This debate will go on forever since it is quite unclear what was intended, so I think I will stop repeating myself and let this die out. Hopefully someone can make an official(ish) ruling or it be clarified in the 12 years it takes to make a new Chaos Codex...

anticitizen013 wrote:
As I (think) I posted before... the way that seems most logical is to check LOS, and if there are more than 1 unit in the LOS you pivot towards it and fire twice.

There are two 'logical' ways to play it, and both require you to break the rules in order to accomplish them.

One is the way you've been suggesting, that "visible" means "within line of sight" and that the Fire Frenzy rules allow you to check line of sight out of the normal shooting sequence and you immediately check for the closest unit within line of sight and proceed from there.

It is important to note that this method does break the rules in that you are checking line of sight before selecting a target, something the Fire Frenzy rules do not specifically mention that you are allowed to do.


The second logical way to play it is to assume that you pivot the walker to face the nearest unit in order to check line of sight (since this is the normal method that walkers check line of sight) and then if the nearest unit isn't "visible" (again assuming this means "within line of sight") then you'd pivot the walker again to face the next nearest target and check line of sight again until you find the closest unit that is "visible" (within line of sight).

As with the other method, you have to bend some rules and make some assumptions to make it work.


In the end, you should be discussing this issue with your opponent as the rules as written do not give you a clear way to play.

Thanks for the lively discussion on a rule that I found to be an absurd update from the old codex.

I think there is a strong case for either rule interpretation. I will discuss this with my opponents before I field a dreadnought with anything other than dual CCWs. If they allow me to use the dread to fire at the nearest visible unit BEFORE pivoting I will use my dusty dreadnoughts again, though they will need careful management. If they disagree with that interpretation they will remain dusty until the 'fire frenzy' rule is changed or I pick up a Dreadclaw, whichever comes first.

thalor

This'd be a good 'HOW WOULD YOU PLAY IT' poll.

lambadomy wrote:It doesn't imply anything of the sort. It strongly implies that they don't shoot their guns out of their rear ends or over their shoulders. That is about it.

It does imply that they can see 360. If they could not see 360, then they would not be able to pivot to shoot. They would be denied the ability to pivot . . .

Regardless, it has become obvious to me that a strong argument can be made for either position. And as I do not play Chaos; therefore, I do not have a 'dog' in this fight. So, I am going to bow out of the conversation.

Thankfully, I can take a pole here and set up a 'House Rule' for our local group until GW settles the issue (if they settle the issue).

I agree with Yak.

Its best to check with a TO/friend before making a decision here

Hope nobody minds me bringing this back up, its only on the second page though.

So, i brought this question up to my local redshirts (disclaimer: Yes i know what they say is not official, but its still more input) and they were surprised that it is even an issue. Their response was pretty much a "duh, of course its only out of the units they can see in front of them." Turns out pretty much everyone in the store thought it was that way and agreed with the argument that vehicles can only see what is in their weapon arcs, as in 5th weapon arcs = LOS. So i'll certainly be playing it this way from now on.

I like how that sounds... makes the Dreadnought actually worth it ;P

Thanks for posting your (their) feedback!

I think it really is the simplest reading of the rule.

There's something to be said for simplicity.

This brings up another question that I was wondering.

Can dreads see over railings like normal infantry to shoot straight down?

Sorry to be OT :(

5th ed LoS rules are actually quite simple: if the model can see another model it can see it.

So there is no railing rule anymore? Sweet.

Remember, too that a vehicle's weapons may pivot 45 degrees up and down (even if the model can't) to shoot. That may also help shooting from elevation.

AffliKtion wrote:So there is no railing rule anymore? Sweet.

No what rule?

willydstyle wrote:5th ed LoS rules are actually quite simple: if the model can see another model it can see it.

That's always been the core premise of 40K's LOS rules.

So i was re-reading this thread and it would actually seem that if we stick 100% to RAW than with either interpretation the Dreadnought always shoots itself, unless there is a rule specifically saying units cannot shoot themselves (not just that they cannot shoot friendly targets).

And another question: If walker weapon are only 45 degree arcs doesn't that mean that, if a unit is close enough and directly in front of it (like after a pivot) that the weapons cannot actually see it?

And even another question: Going by the interpretation of fire frenzy that it only shoots what is visible before it pivots, then if nothing is in its arc of fire and it is "sane" then does that mean it can then pivot and shoot something else? Obviously it still can't move since you are in the shooting phase before you get to check for the fire frenzy.

Drudge Dreadnought wrote:So i was re-reading this thread and it would actually seem that if we stick 100% to RAW than with either interpretation the Dreadnought always shoots itself, unless there is a rule specifically saying units cannot shoot themselves (not just that they cannot shoot friendly targets).

And another question: If walker weapon are only 45 degree arcs doesn't that mean that, if a unit is close enough and directly in front of it (like after a pivot) that the weapons cannot actually see it?

And even another question: Going by the interpretation of fire frenzy that it only shoots what is visible before it pivots, then if nothing is in its arc of fire and it is "sane" then does that mean it can then pivot and shoot something else? Obviously it still can't move since you are in the shooting phase before you get to check for the fire frenzy.

Yes to all of this...

Drudge Dreadnought wrote:So i was re-reading this thread and it would actually seem that if we stick 100% to RAW than with either interpretation the Dreadnought always shoots itself, unless there is a rule specifically saying units cannot shoot themselves (not just that they cannot shoot friendly targets).

A dreadnought can't be in its own fire arc (and thus visible for shooting), unless you've put the weapons on in a seriously bizarre way. You'd have to be deliberately pointing the weapon at the model's foot or something...