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Wait, what are we disagreeing about?

I was saying we should release the people who didn't do those things.

Good point--arrggghh!!!

Let 'em all go free! The world ends in 2012 anyways, right?

Mwahahaaha!

so, your telling me we know the entire history of everyone in there?
i doubt it, not all of them may be as clean as it looks.
do they keep entire records of people over there?
can those records be corrupted?

I'm not telling you we know anything. I'm just telling you where I stand on innocent people and actual enemy combatants.

And thats my point.
how do we know which are combatants and which are innocent people?
these are people we know pretty much nothing about, for all we know we could be releasing 5-6 terrorists every 10 people or so.

since the country keeps no formal / safe records of people in the country, we have no idea who these people are, what we think is a normal person could have a small chem lab hidden away, but because we do not know this person or what he has done in the past, it makes it risky to release anyone.

When people are shooting at you it is fairly obvious they are combatants and you can shoot back, and if you kill them no-one is going to ask any questions, unless civilians get hit in the crossfire.

The problem is when people are swept up in general searches and get labelled as enemy combatants although there actually isn't any good evidence against them. A lot of the people in Guantanamo are in this category. They were in Afghanistan at the time of the invasion and were arrested by CotW forces -- for a variety of reasons -- and shipped off with bags on their heads.

Undoubtedly a number of these people were 'bad guys' and a number were just in the wrong place at the wrong time, and a bunch more probably got accused by their neighbour who coveted their donkey or wife.

The world's smallest violin is playing for them.

Frazzled wrote:The world's smallest violin is playing for them.

You're the worst kind of self entitled first world hypocrite aren't you? "Oh hey, yeah that sucks for them. They shouldn't of been living there I guess."

Thats a pretty fethed up attitude. The kind that signals that you don't really deserve the freedoms and rights that you have since you so clearly don't believe others should have the same.

ok, it may not seem "fair" to some people on here, but it sends a pretty big warning to terrorist groups.

Yeah, except resistance movements and terrorist movements thrive under conditions like that. They recruit from the poor, disaffected, angry, and those with reasons to hate us. You're killing a few and helping to recruit thousands more. People like you are why there are more terrorists in the world now then when we went into afghanistan in the first place. You can't fight an insurgency that draws recruits from the general population by enacting harsh measures on that population. You shoot yourself in the foot. The first rule of counter insurgency is forgive and forget because an iron fist just means you lose.

Frazzled wrote:Is this the same process that allowed the current Taliban leader in Southern Afghanistan to be set free?

Yeah, same one. Because he was released when no case could be formed while holding him for six years. Between the risk of having one more Taliban guy added to the mix and suspending legal process, I know which one represents the greater threat to basic freedoms.

Yea, I completely trust that, like I trust the administration is looking out for me in the bailout mess.

Of course, because you're a dittohead and your place in the world is to overreact to Democrat policy.

JD21290 wrote:And thats my point.
how do we know which are combatants and which are innocent people?
these are people we know pretty much nothing about, for all we know we could be releasing 5-6 terrorists every 10 people or so.

You don't think that intelligence services posted to the region are competent? While in the early stages of combat there were a lot more unknowns, things have improved massively,

And no, you don't get to keep people locked up because you don't know if they're bad or not. That's Soviet style logic and it ends very badly.

If they were captured in combat, then they are a POW, seems pretty simple to me. IIRC, international law has always allowed more or less immediate reprisals against spies and sabatouers. There also are those that are themselves war criminals, and should be dealt with by a war crimes tribunal.

So, my take on the people in Gitmo:

If they were simply an enemy combatant that did nothing other than openly carry arms and fight, then hold them until the end of hostilities, however that is defined.

If they were spies, agents, etc. than deal with them the way people like that always get dealt with: quietly and finally. I mean, guys like that just get held and/or killed under most codes.

If there is any evidence of war crimes, then hold them for a tribunal. There doesn't need to be full US constitutional protections, because there wasn't at Nuremberg, but they are due at least some form of due process: access to counsel, the right to call witnesses, etc.

If they've supported or conducted terrorism, then hold them until there can be some sort of international tribunal. It can be a kangaroo court, but the point is, show the world what we know, that the person has committed or supported acts of terrorism, and that the person should be executed or imprisoned for everybody's safety. It can still stay at gitmo, but at least showing why they're held there would help.

What worries me is that there are people held there that fall into none of these. Maybe they had information, maybe they were in the wrong place, but if they didn't take up arms, there is no evidence of war crimes or terrorism, well, maybe we should let these folks go.

People like you are why there are more terrorists in the world now then when we went into afghanistan in the first place.

my heart bleed shuma, it really does.
so my views cause the number of terrorists to rise?
i think it would be actions that cause that, not just views.

and people like me? i fight for my country you fething little tosser.
what do you do other than sit on a computer pissing people off with your political bs?




Sebster: no, i dont think they are compitent atall.
no matter what you have at hand, you will never be able to find out every last bit of information needed on a single person.


now, this will sound harsh, but when one of these people are released and it does lead to the death of soldiers or innocent people, you can feth off.




just a note here and something im interested in.
who here serves or has served in thier life?
just want to sort out the people who have seen it with thier own eyes to the people who simply talk from what they have heard through media and other tainted sources.

my heart bleed shuma, it really does.
so my views cause the number of terrorists to rise?
i think it would be actions that cause that, not just views.

I don't need to be in the military to understand the concepts of anti insurgency warfare, in fact I really do wish you did. Since, y'know, you seem to be in the military. "Gung ho, go kill the towelheads, to action!" battle plans are fantastic when we are fighting an organized and legitimate fighting force, but we're not. Counter insurgency and anti terrorist warfare is logistics, not combat based. You can't kill a terrorist force or insurgency with might of arms, because they thrive under police states. You kill them by hitting the upper echelons of leadership while striking at their supply system and method of recruitment.

Their method of recruitment is to point out how monstrous we are. Their method of supply is generally drug sales and civilian donations. The iron fist of military action is ill suited to doing anything but killing their leaders at the cost of enabling them to maintain better supply systems and easier recruitment.

HOW THE feth DOES IT HELP US TO GIVE THEM MORE AMMO FOR THEIR PROPAGANDA. I don't care how butthurt you are that you can't storm every mosque in the middle east with your guns blazing. Learn some god damn macro level strategy, its not about making you feel better, it's about winning.

now, this will sound harsh, but when one of these people are released and it does lead to the death of soldiers or innocent people, you can feth off.

Which is cute, because holding them so long has likely helped to recruit thousands, possibly tens of thousands to their cause and has already inevitably led to the deaths of many service personel. There are more "terrorists" in iraq and afghanistan now then when we went in. Do you know why that is? It's because you have no idea how to fight a non conventional war.

I'm just glad we have a force leader in the american military that finally understands counter insurgency practices. Too bad the rest of the world left before we got on the right bus.

I haven't, though my brother was in Afghanistan and would agree with Shuma I reckon.

As for myself: JD, if one of your mates was kidnapped and held for eight years with no trial by Afghans, what would you want to do?

ShumaGorath wrote:
You're the worst kind of self entitled first world hypocrite aren't you?

I'm saddened that you would think I am self entitled.


"Evidently, my hypocrisy knows no bounds." Doc Holliday - Tombstone.

Sebbie? Dittohead? Come on baby we have a better relaitonship than that. After all we've been through, I deserve a better insult than that. Please, try to be more original next time.

The british military are actually really quite good at counter insurgency, mostly due to learning from mistakes made in the North of Ireland and other places.

Modquisition ON:

Gentlemen, common courtesy is required, even in the OT forum. Refrain from personal attacks. If you cannot post without making a personal attack (JD/Shuma et al) then don't post your statement.

Modquisition off:

shuma, do you actually know anything other than the political bs that the media feeds you?
you kill them by removing the important people from the picture, effectively breaking down moral by doing so.

shuma, you really think they will just stop growing on thier own?
just because hate drives them does not mean they will stop because we become nice towards them.

HOW THE feth DOES IT HELP US TO GIVE THEM MORE AMMO FOR THEIR PROPAGANDA. I don't care how butthurt you are that you can't storm every mosque in the middle east with your guns blazing. Learn some god damn macro level strategy, its not about making you feel better, it's about winning.

your very good at randomly bringing up bs from the top of your head arent you?
please point out where i have said about storming a mosque.
also, you seem to try and brand me as a racist towards them as i dont agree with your views?
difference is, when you spend 6+ months of your life out there you get a much bigger picture of whats going on, rather than what the media is willing to show you.
maybe you should do a little research about this 1st, before trying to be a smartass.

you cannot reason with a terrorist, thier idea is to get the job done no matter what it takes.
as you can see, they dont really care about losing thier own life in the process, its a small price to them.
and lets face it, another training camp in iraq is simply able to replace 1 lost with another.

i love the way people think about the women and children all being innocent, ive seen on more than one occasion a child or a young woman pick up a dropped gun, only to fire it at soldiers.

as i have said, people are not what they may 1st seem.
and just a question on tactics here before you continue your media fueled frenzy, what nation controls gitmo?




Da Boss: it hasnt happened yet, but i would be willing to risk my life to get them back, not that it matters though as around 80% of prisoners taken are executed anyway, if not then usually tourtured, beaten, then released close to death and mentally scared.




Frazz: sorry mate, but im saying what i want to at the moment, i just find it funny that some little kiddo seems to think he knows everything because he owns a TV and reads a few papers.

By request I am shuitting this thread down. I invite all to post in the deadliest spider thread. Its full of 8 legged goodness.