Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Related question then, how do you disembark from a skimmer? If the stand is >2" can you not disembark to the ground? if not can you disembark to a building 4" high?
I can't remember if it was a rule this edition or not, about using bases that come with the model, but I understand the valk base is quite high.

Gestalt wrote:Related question then, how do you disembark from a skimmer? If the stand is >2" can you not disembark to the ground? if not can you disembark to a building 4" high?
I can't remember if it was a rule this edition or not, about using bases that come with the model, but I understand the valk base is quite high.

Well nowhere does it say the bases have to be 2", only the model (which by definition includes the base), so I would assume you measure from the top of the model to the access point. As for disembarking onto upper levels, thats a muddy subject that doesnt really have a hard and fast RaW answer.

The current Valk operates like a Flyer and so has the huge flyer base, but the new one will have a skimmer like base.

I thought the pics of the new plastic Valk had that big plastic base of a clear plastic cross.

Gestalt wrote:I thought the pics of the new plastic Valk had that big plastic base of a clear plastic cross.

yeah if someone could find a pic of this new base because I haven't actually seen it lol. I've just been told its gonna be a skimmer style base (and I assumed Skimmer hight, though I may be wrong)

From BoLS - who got it from Warseer.



and in use:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_4nzgPbHlNo4/SZhfXOsozsI/AAAAAAAAEF8/Ojnvhzl5pJg/s1600-h/valk-squadron.jpg

EDIT: Broken link - bleh.

Gwar! wrote:Ah well then that's fine the

The thing is Rumours flying about say the Valk will actually become a skimmer, so wont have this 12" high stand anymore

The new plastic models that have been displayed are all still on the 12" stands. So if thats all it comes with then thats what you get. I think they did this as not to crowd up the play area with them being as cheap as they are (in game points) and still rather large as a model.

EDIT: Picture posted. Doesnt look to be 12" but still rather high.

Mhmm yes I see that. I assume the Valk must have a Special Rule to permit disembarkation, because with a base like that under the standard rules it would be impossible.

....Wow the valks going to have a massive blind spot if it does come on a 12" stand (all weapon have a 45* vertical move ment). Any one standing with in 12" can't be shot at (unless they're on a building).

You need to do one of two things to sort all this out

1) Make your skimmers out of glass. I.e they now come with new advanced cloaking fields. You can have LOS yet you still have a 120ton VLAT ship in the way of incoming fire for a cover save. Glass may be difficult & problematic so perhaps clear plastic.

2) Shoot Over the skimmers. Low skimmer, tall models. Surely tall models will be a benifit to virtually everything else when it comes to LOS.

Kneeling/crouching tau sure are fine for a fish of fury but what happens when.. Ahh.. You can kneel behind a wall & shoot over it, gaining a cover save but not allowing one & likewise, withing 2" of the egde of area terrain you can still shoot out of it, not confering but getting a cover save. Why dont they treat vehicles this way? Would sort out Alot of problems & would not be broken. Tanks are killable (infact when they are destroyed they do count as terrain) and cost extra KP's and may destract from certain types of units or tactics.

There is a special rule to drop from the skimmer along its move, but I havent heard anything that changes normal transport vehicle rules.
Is it legal to change the base to be shorter/taller? Or the radius?

The rulebook says distances are measured to and from the hull, "with the exceptions of the vehicle's weapons, access points, and fire points, which all work as normal."
Measuring 2" from the access point doesn't quite reach the ground.

Gestalt wrote:There is a special rule to drop from the skimmer along its move, but I havent heard anything that changes normal transport vehicle rules.
Is it legal to change the base to be shorter/taller? Or the radius?

The rulebook says distances are measured to and from the hull, "with the exceptions of the vehicle's weapons, access points, and fire points, which all work as normal."
Measuring 2" from the access point doesn't quite reach the ground.

It's perfectly legal to change the base to whatever hight you want. However you cannot change the hight in game, nor can you remove the Flying base unless its immobilised.

And Special Rules > Rulebook, so without seeing the Valk entry (had a copy, don't have it now and cant remember it) and knowing if it has a special rule, using the Default base I doubt you will be able to re-embark.

Gwar! wrote:
... using the Default base I doubt you will be able to re-embark.

I have one thing to say..

Magnets

Tri wrote:....Wow the valks going to have a massive blind spot if it does come on a 12" stand (all weapon have a 45* vertical move ment). Any one standing with in 12" can't be shot at (unless they're on a building).

Just mount the weapons on at a 45 degree downward angle, then the 45 degrees of assumed vertical movement will be perfect.

Gwar! wrote:

Gestalt wrote:There is a special rule to drop from the skimmer along its move, but I havent heard anything that changes normal transport vehicle rules.
Is it legal to change the base to be shorter/taller? Or the radius?

The rulebook says distances are measured to and from the hull, "with the exceptions of the vehicle's weapons, access points, and fire points, which all work as normal."
Measuring 2" from the access point doesn't quite reach the ground.

It's perfectly legal to change the base to whatever hight you want. However you cannot change the hight in game, nor can you remove the Flying base unless its immobilised.

And Special Rules > Rulebook, so without seeing the Valk entry (had a copy, don't have it now and cant remember it) and knowing if it has a special rule, using the Default base I doubt you will be able to re-embark.

There's no special rule for re-rembarking although since it's perfectly acceptable for a valk to float in one spot like a helicopter I wouldn't be a pedant about my opponent's infantry shooting up into it. The special rule for deploying is that the troops inside can deepstrike at any point along the valk's path of travel for that turn.

I don't think you really shouls be changing the height of the stand though. you use the base provided with the model you bought stand and all, because I don't think the valkyrie was ever meant to be flying around at devilfish/falcon level.

Gwar! wrote:It's perfectly legal to change the base to whatever hight you want.....

And which rule is this one? Changing the size of models bases is against rule, there is no granted exception for height.

DAaddict wrote:"Would anyone begrudge me playing to my armies strengths while trying to minimise the effects of it's weaknesses?"


GW 5th edition credo:

If you ain't imperial, you don't get it. If a xenos has something good make it better and give it to the imperials.

So perfectly worded... I'd add something else to it also: If xenos have something good, find a way to make it bad.

Hymirl wrote:

Gwar! wrote:It's perfectly legal to change the base to whatever hight you want.....

And which rule is this one? Changing the size of models bases is against rule, there is no granted exception for height.

Where does it say that? I am looking at my rulebook and all it says is:

Page 3 wrote:Bases
Citadel miniatures are normally supplied with a plastic base. If so, they must be glued onto their bases before they can be used in the game.

Some players like to mount their models on impressive scenic bases. As mounting your models on different sized bases might affect the way they interact with the rules, make sure before the game that your opponent does not mind this.

I see no rule saying I cannot modify my bases however I want, however it does say (rather redundantly) that you need to clear it with your opponent. See my Sig for why it is redundant

That's very poignant, very true, and very clear... Finally, something offical in this thread that has a page number on it. Good call

Basically it comes down to

You can't change the base.

if you want to break the rules, and your opponent is okay with breaking the rules, then you are fine.

coredump wrote:Basically it comes down to

You can't change the base.

if you want to break the rules, and your opponent is okay with breaking the rules, then you are fine.

Again, this is not the case. You can change the base. Nowhere does it say you cannot. It says you may, but just clarify with your opponent (ya know like pretty much everything else in the game).

I quoted the relevant rule, so why do you insist on making up stuff?

The base size of models might certainly be an issue for tournaments as they often have regulations on that which go above and beyond the guidelines in the rulebook, but the relevant rule has already been quoted.

The "put them on the base they came with" argument has a couple of problems as well: I have a boat-load of old metal Deathwing terminators. They are still sold through direct sales, but they still come with 25 mm bases. Should I rebase them on 40mm bases to conform with the newer plastic marine terminators or "put them on the bases they came with?"

On the other hand : want to mount your grots on 40mm bases? Well, as far as GW is concerned - make them look pretty! And just make sure your opponent knows and is okay with it.

Modeling for advantage? Yep.
Is it a sportsman-like thing to do (assuming its done purely to gain an advantage in games)?: Probably not.
Is it against the rules?: Nope.

Gwar! wrote:Well nowhere does it say the bases have to be 2", only the model (which by definition includes the base), so I would assume you measure from the top of the model to the access point.

All measurement to a model with a base is made to the closest edge of its base (Rulebook, page 3)

The only time this changes is when measuring coherency in Ruins.


So yes, by RAW, a model would have problems disembarking from a skimmer on a flight stand that puts the access points more than 2 and a quarter inches off the table, unless you park it beside something tall that the models can climb out onto...

insaniak wrote:

Gwar! wrote:Well nowhere does it say the bases have to be 2", only the model (which by definition includes the base), so I would assume you measure from the top of the model to the access point.

All measurement to a model with a base is made to the closest edge of its base (Rulebook, page 3)

The only time this changes is when measuring coherency in Ruins.


So yes, by RAW, a model would have problems disembarking from a skimmer on a flight stand that puts the access points more than 2 and a quarter inches off the table, unless you park it beside something tall that the models can climb out onto...

So, any tau player who's devilish is on the taller Flying Stand has been cheating then?

And anyway, nowhere does it say we have to measure the actual diagonal distance (thats only for Shooting) so as long as its 2" in the horizontal, one could say it's "legal".

Gwar! wrote:And anyway, nowhere does it say we have to measure the actual diagonal distance (thats only for Shooting) so as long as its 2" in the horizontal, one could say it's "legal".

That is an interesting interpretation. I don't see where that is only for shooting either. It says you may embark or disembark within 2" of an access point. It would make for some interesting games when land raiders are disembarking units on the top floor of buildings. Or a valk disembarks a unit on the other side of an impassable wall.

Gestalt wrote:

Gwar! wrote:And anyway, nowhere does it say we have to measure the actual diagonal distance (thats only for Shooting) so as long as its 2" in the horizontal, one could say it's "legal".

That is an interesting interpretation. I don't see where that is only for shooting either. It says you may embark or disembark within 2" of an access point. It would make for some interesting games when land raiders are disembarking units on the top floor of buildings. Or a valk disembarks a unit on the other side of an impassable wall.

Quite Possible i would imagine.

Things like that are why GW need to lrn2write. If even the notion crosses the mind of a player (albeit utterly wrong, even I admit that) they haven't done a good job.

So, gluing the flight stand lying down on the base, and then the Valkyrie on top of that would be completely legal and okay?

But cutting the stand in half and gluing the Valk on top of that wouldn't?

People find some really strange things to complain about.

Gwar! wrote: So, any tau player who's devilish is on the taller Flying Stand has been cheating then?

If it results in a distance of more than 2 and a quarter inches, then yes, technically it would be impossible to disembark on flat ground.

And anyway, nowhere does it say we have to measure the actual diagonal distance

It says to measure to the closest edge of the base. That means measuring to the closest edge of the base, not measuring the corresponding horizontal distance.

Nowhere do the rules tell you to only measure on the horizontal plane. That's an idea that has no support from the rules, yet for some reason just keeps on coming back in rules discussions.


Measuring the distance between two points requires actually measuring the distance between the two points.

so as long as its 2" in the horizontal, one could say it's "legal".

One could say that... but wouldn't be able to find any support for it in the rules.



Having said that, measuring 2" horizontally is, from my experience, the way most people (including myself) actually do it.

glory wrote:So, gluing the flight stand lying down on the base, and then the Valkyrie on top of that would be completely legal and okay?
But cutting the stand in half and gluing the Valk on top of that wouldn't?

I wouldn't have a problem with people cutting down the base or using it normally. But I would have a problem with counting the cutdown model as 6" in the air, same as counting the model 6" in the air as 2" to the ground. As long as the altitude is consistent during the game its legal as far as I can tell.

glory wrote:So, gluing the flight stand lying down on the base, and then the Valkyrie on top of that would be completely legal and okay?

Ignoring any potential argument for the rules being written on the assumption that models are assembled correctly... Sure, go right ahead. You won't actually use it that way, at least not after the 40th person or so has taken one look at your army and pointed out that the valkyrie's base is assembled wrong...

People find some really strange things to complain about.

Who was complaining?

People were discussing the vagaries of GW's current basing rules. Nothing more.

insaniak wrote:One could say that... but wouldn't be able to find any support for it in the rules.

Having said that, measuring 2" horizontally is, from my experience, the way most people (including myself) actually do it.

yup, as do I. I made that point in jest, since it shows that GW cannot write clear rules to save their life, since you could get that meaning, even if its not backed up in the rules.

insaniak wrote:

glory wrote:So, gluing the flight stand lying down on the base, and then the Valkyrie on top of that would be completely legal and okay?

Ignoring any potential argument for the rules being written on the assumption that models are assembled correctly... Sure, go right ahead. You won't actually use it that way, at least not after the 40th person or so has taken one look at your army and pointed out that the valkyrie's base is assembled wrong...

To which I reply: The rules don't say anything about abnormal basing being disallowed, the rules say I have to inform you of it.

insaniak wrote:

glory wrote:
People find some really strange things to complain about

Who was complaining?

People were discussing the vagaries of GW's current basing rules. Nothing more.

I was referring to those 40 people who just pointed out that my base is assembled wrong. It was an extremely backwards way of commenting on the fact that the rules appear to work quite strangely when it comes to the Valkyrie model. I really should've clarified the sentence a bit more.

What sort of base does the FW Valk have, by the way? Will we have to buy massively expensive resin pieces to gan access to the "Weaker-antigraviton pattern" Valkyries that can float at altitudes below 10 metres?