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DBM thanks a ton for this! Really useful data especially since none of us have really looked at all of this stuff so closely yet.

here's a couple of thoughts...

on cost analysis I'd go as far as to say that you'd need to include a 55 point chimera for any unit using a melta. One can't really execute its purpose without the other.

Aso I'd keep in mind when weighing the ranks that if you are going to issue an order to a unit with meltas, then they'd need to be outside of their transport at the beginning of their shooting phase, and if they weren't a command squad, they'll need to be within 6" of a command squad. That makes the numbers generated from non ordered melta fires a little more attractive. Not risking assault death from whoever falls out of the land raider you killed is a plus.

No reason to make numbers for that. More of an observation of the melta family of tank kill.

Of course we all know that range is a factor, and that as armor values drop and numbers of tanks increase, quality of tank kill has less value than a combination of range and numbers of shots.

These numbers are fantastic for land raider preparations (which are very important considering the meta) but for russes, getting meltas into their effective range through a screen is going to be a lot more tricky. Lascannons certainly aren't the answer to long range leman russ fire, and outflanking isn't even really a great solution considering their increased side armor 13. I think ignoring them until they break for an objective block, then tackling with meltas might be IGs best answer. Either they take standard russes and can kill tanks but not infantry in cover, or they take eradicators and then our chimeras are safe (at least from them)

Nurglitch wrote:So, uh, how do Melta guns compare to Lascannons at ranges over 12"?

Use the data however you want to use it. (Hint don't shoot lascannons at armor 14 unless you have nothing better to shoot at.) Try mixing in some 'thank you' with your snark.

Nicely done DBM and SC! Thank you for your statistical awesome!

Can the Vendetta's scout off the edge still? I think one big benefit with the Vendetta is going to be outflanking early (with the +1 fleet advisor) to come in off a table edge and fire 3 TL LCs at the flanks and rear of armor. Dropping off a vet squad in the process is going to make the whole deal juicier.

I am picturing a vendetta popping off the side 2nd turn, and either shooting after moving in 6", or if the enemy is farther away (or is a Land raider) zipping in ~24" and deep striking vets with 3 meltas, who proceed to do the work for it. That strikes me as a lot of flexibility, especially coupled with a few CC or PC s in chimeras running interception on your line.

Damn... now I am getting a little excited about the whole valk/vende thing...

Another thing we have to factor in is that "Bring it Down!" (TL against MC/vehicles) is a Company Commander Order :( And since Voxes (oh I really hope this isn't true) do not allow for long range Orders...

If you have a PCS with meltas, it will have to be withing 12" of the CCS if you want to benefit from the Order. Same, obviously, with Vets or SWS.


Personally, I don't want to use my CCS as a melta squad for the simple fact that I want them alive


This makes it harder for meltas to benefit from the TL, so is a mark against them, and a mark for HWS.

Add to the fact that it's a lot harder for meltasquads to bridge the gap (less access to DS), and it looks like we either start adding meltaguns to line squads (i plan on using a lot of AC/melta squads personally), we use Vends (again, not a bad choice), or we use LC HWS.

Janthkin wrote:
I've been doing this for a decade - they just jump out of a Chimera. Gives you about 20" worth of range to work with.

Make no mistake - orders are nice things to have, but the officer's job is to die gloriously in the service of his god-emperor.

Then, as Shep said, you need to calculate in the cost of a Chimera to see which is the most efficient at killing AV14.

May not change the rankings, but may make a Vendetta closer in efficiency.

Death By Monkeys wrote:
19. Heavy Weapon Squad w/ 3 Lascannon (8%)

Does anyone else feel bad for these guys or is it just me lol

So Melta weapons are better than Lascannons?

Well feth me, who'da guessed that?

And having 4 Twin-Linked Meltas is better than 3 TL-Lascannons? Amazing!

I would have thought a weapon that scores an average penetration result of 12.5 would be equal to the one that has an average of 15. Guess I was wrong.

H.B.M.C. wrote:So Melta weapons are better than Lascannons?

Well feth me, who'da guessed that?

And having 4 Twin-Linked Meltas is better than 3 TL-Lascannons? Amazing!

I would have thought a weapon that scores an average penetration result of 12.5 would be equal to the one that has an average of 15. Guess I was wrong.

I think it's interesting to see how wide the gap really is.

Ozymandias wrote:

Janthkin wrote:
I've been doing this for a decade - they just jump out of a Chimera. Gives you about 20" worth of range to work with.

Make no mistake - orders are nice things to have, but the officer's job is to die gloriously in the service of his god-emperor.

Then, as Shep said, you need to calculate in the cost of a Chimera to see which is the most efficient at killing AV14.

May not change the rankings, but may make a Vendetta closer in efficiency.

Definitely.

That said, a PCS in a Chimera w/4 meltas is much cheaper than a Land Raider. Anything less nasty, I don't worry about so much.

Polonius wrote:I think it's interesting to see how wide the gap really is.

I think it's interesting to see how many people didn't realise how wide the gap really is, and that we needed a page of Mathhammer to prove it.

C'mon - if the average result on a D6 is 3.5, and one gun rolls one D6, and the other rolls two D6's, it doesn't take someone skilled in rocket surgery to figure out which has the higher average Penetration. And it ain't much of a leap from there to figure out that having 4 of the better weapon is better than having 3 of the lesser weapon.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Polonius wrote:I think it's interesting to see how wide the gap really is.

I think it's interesting to see how many people didn't realise how wide the gap really is, and that we needed a page of Mathhammer to prove it.

C'mon - if the average result on a D6 is 3.5, and one gun rolls one D6, and the other rolls two D6's, it doesn't take someone skilled in rocket surgery to figure out which has the higher average Penetration. And it ain't much of a leap from there to figure out that having 4 of the better weapon is better than having 3 of the lesser weapon.

Its the Placebo <sp> effect

What Sounds More Intimidating
1- Multi Melta
2- Las CANNON

Obviously melta weapons take down AV 14 better than lascannons at close range. There was really no doubt about that. I'm crunching numbers to figure out what's the most efficient way to get my melta fix.

Just sayin'.

Sir Crispy wrote:Obviously melta weapons take down AV 14 better than lascannons at close range. There was really no doubt about that. I'm crunching numbers to figure out what's the most efficient way to get my melta fix.

Just sayin'.

And so you should.... you only got so many points and you gotta use them effectivly

4-Meltas in a Vendetta.

Done. Problem solved.

H.B.M.C. wrote:I think it's interesting to see how many people didn't realise how wide the gap really is, and that we needed a page of Mathhammer to prove it.

That was kinda the point. I saw a lot of folks getting excited with the new codex and thinking that somehow lascannons were suddenly great (thinking particularly about the Vendetta), even though they hadn't been in the previous codex. I wanted to show that tank-killing really hadn't changed much from Codex to Codex. And frankly, in my thinking, the CCS with 4 Meltas (90 points) is now what used to be the Hardened Vet Squad with 3 Meltas (70 points). I don't want to get into the trap of playing an old Codex army with the new Codex, but, hey, what's effective is effective.

Now, if the Vendetta carried three twin-linked multi-meltas? That really would be a no-brainer.

H.B.M.C. wrote:4-Meltas in a Vendetta.

Done. Problem solved.

Are you saying that you can see no need to equip Las Cannons at all, or are you saying that in most cases the Multi Melta short range can be over come

EDIT and if you had the choice to use say a Land Raider with Multimeltas instead of Lasconnons would you

Has anyone thought of the Artillery Pieces? I mean, some of them look great for killing armor. First they hit top (side) armour and get the Ordinance benifit. The Bassie and the Maniticore (even more with the bunker buster) seem like they could be decent in taking down armour. Even more so if in full squad.

Where does it say they hit top(side) armor? I only see that it comes from the direction of the firer.

Page 60, "Hits from Barrage weapons, however, always hit the vehicle's side armour (representing it top armour)."

As many have already pointed out, its pretty obvious that meltaguns will always be the prime choice when inside 6". There are a number of mitigating factors, however. They are only going to be better against those heavily armored targets like land raiders. That means your own squad with meltaguns in a chimera is going to have to survive in their own right to move into position. At that point, if they do survive to their target, the Raider is probably already at least half way across the board.

While that is still the best way to reliably kill AV14 all the way around, it still isn't foolproof and whatever is inside the Raider will still be jumping out, killing your melta squad, then moving toward your lines. Anything beyond the AV14 all the way around vehicles can very easily be dealt with from a vendetta-esque unit due to side and rear shots. Very few times is a Leman Russ going to facing directly at your edge of the board without pivoting and exposing that rear armor to an outflanker.

Yes, meltaguns are far better if you can get them close to those AV14 all around vehicles. But if thats the only anti-tank you bring, you're going to be sorely undergunned for anti-tank.

Battle-Brother Wags wrote:As many have already pointed out, its pretty obvious that meltaguns will always be the prime choice when inside 6". There are a number of mitigating factors, however. They are only going to be better against those heavily armored targets like land raiders. That means your own squad with meltaguns in a chimera is going to have to survive in their own right to move into position. At that point, if they do survive to their target, the Raider is probably already at least half way across the board.

While that is still the best way to reliably kill AV14 all the way around, it still isn't foolproof and whatever is inside the Raider will still be jumping out, killing your melta squad, then moving toward your lines. Anything beyond the AV14 all the way around vehicles can very easily be dealt with from a vendetta-esque unit due to side and rear shots. Very few times is a Leman Russ going to facing directly at your edge of the board without pivoting and exposing that rear armor to an outflanker.

Yes, meltaguns are far better if you can get them close to those AV14 all around vehicles. But if thats the only anti-tank you bring, you're going to be sorely undergunned for anti-tank.

We're pretty much discussing the most effiecient way to kill tanks as defined by AV13 and 14, since most agree autocannons are better against AV12 and under.

The landraider will make it halfway across the board regardless. You can't take enough lascannons in your list, have them all get LOS, and hit enough to pop a landraider on the first turn with any kind of reliability. Could you get lucky? Absolutely. Should you count on it when making your list? Never. There isn't a weapon in the IG's arsenal that has range better than 24" and can be given a decent chance at killing a raider. So, assume the thing gets across the board and deal with it anyways. Don't invest in a way to stop it before that happens because it almost never will.

The melta unit in the chimera does NOT have to be good in combat, because it does NOT need to survive. Since when was the IG worried about sending units to their deaths?That's why they are suicide melta squads. You spend 150 points to blow up a 250+ point land raider. If you have the opportunity, you can shoot out the chimera's hatch and give yourself a sort-of chance to survive the next enemy turn. Don't ask for any more than that.

I'll agree with the vendetta bit.

Meltaguns work fine if you bring 2+ squads of them in chimeras - their only job is to take out those 1 or 2 av14 or 13 vehicles you opponent will bring. You don't need anything else since your line autocannons will do fine against weaker vehicles as long as you took enough (and at 5-10 pts each, why wouldn't you?).

I'm wondering how well a Hydra will do against a Falcon, Wave Serpent, Devilfish, or Hammerhead.

I think the other assumption not addressed here is that one must gear for AV 14. It is pretty obvious that while meltas are pretty useful for dealing with the Land Raider, Land Raiders represent only a fraction of the actual armored threats encountered on a table top. Most armies you will face will cap out at 3 land raiders, and if this is the case, you are in a pretty good situation as it is, because he has taken armor against an army with fantastic access to ways to kill half his army.

The more relevant question is how to deal with the rest of the armor that poses IG a seroius threat; Namely transports and other race's MBT's. In nearly all other cases (Namely monolith), when attacking from any angle other than head-on, the target number for armor penetration is drastically lower.

This is where the Vendetta shines. either by scouting 24 up the flank, or by actually outflanking (with obscene amounts of re-rolls), a vendetta lines up on side armor with 3 TL shots, and a pretty safe range. No one is going to show a gunline their side armor, leaving the vendettas in a very nice position for early armor popping.

For these reasons, I believe the Vendetta excells at armor busting in practical applications. For all other applications, I vote you cram it with melta-gun toting suicide troops.

The problem with the Vendetta is that the model is 11" long! You can't move just 6" to fire all lascannons the turn you outflank. Meaning you have to wait until turn three at least before you can bring all your lascannons to bear on the enemy.

Another variable I play with to protect my tanks is to take a varied choice and center my 'tactics' around an unsuspecting one. This mathhammer focuses on taking down AV 14 and while this is helpful it's still not going to win a game by a long shot. If you tailor your army to beat it, then you have the danegr of getting distracted by what your armies meant to do - destroy the other tanks as well! I've found that my Leman Russ takes most shots during a game due to being a crazy conversion. It's different so it holds your oppontents focus, while my demolisher gets to rumble around causing havoc taking very little fire in comparison. The two are also painted differently - the russ is red and gold, while the demolisher is a neutral and dirtied grey. Like the OP said, there's loads more variables to take into account. Multimetlas great in principal, but personally, I'll stick with my massed lascannons and hope for a lucky hit. Hasn't failed me yet.... as for infantry thats a different puzzle. Where can i squeeze in even more lasguns?

PeterWelzien wrote:The problem with the Vendetta is that the model is 11" long! You can't move just 6" to fire all lascannons the turn you outflank. Meaning you have to wait until turn three at least before you can bring all your lascannons to bear on the enemy.

It's brilliant design by GW by the way. Models might have to move nearly maximum speed to even fit on the table. Either make the models smaller or allow people to first 'deploy' the model on the table with the base touching the table edge before actually having to spend movement points. I wonder if it's tournament acceptable to scratch build mini-Vendettas that are the size of Land Speeders