Broadside A.S.S. and Drone Controller and Drones?

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**Raxmei**

synchronicity wrote:However, the two sentences about how every model must take it if one takes it, and still being able to take drones, are directly parallel together. They are there to let you know that if one Broadside takes an ASS, the other 1-2 must also take it, but the Team Leader/Shas'vre may also take 1-2 drones if they desire, without having to purchase the ASS for them (which you can't anyway).

That's the way I interpreted it. Until recently I wasn't aware there was another interpretation. Another way to look at it is that since 1. All models in a team that includes an ASS must be equipped with ASS 2. Drones can not be equipped with ASS and 3. The unit can still take drones, then drones clearly are not counted among the models in the team for ASS purposes.

**KaloranSLC**

Raxmei wrote:3. The unit can still take drones, then drones clearly are not counted among the models in the team for ASS purposes.

"Clearly" doesn't belong anywhere near that codex. Ever. If it's spawned enough debate, it can't be that clear. That doesn't mean I don't agree with your interpretation.

**focusedfire**

Synchonicity-This ignoring that drones when wargear become the same unit type as their controller under their description.

It also ignores the duality of the drones. They have stats because they can defend in CC but also because gun drones can be in seperate independent squads.

The current trend of thought on these is that when attached to an infantry type model they are counted as being just wargear except where otherwise noted in their rules. {The drone casualties count towards assessing if the unit has to make a moral test}(paraphrased) being an example of one of those exceptions.

Now as wargear they would already recieve the benefits of the ASS because of their base rule of making them same unit type as their owning/controlling model. The drones wouldn't need the exception rule for using the ASS because their base rule states that they would benefit.

There is a difference between drones as a squad(gun drones) and drones as wargear.

Drones can't take wargear but the Tau have a precedent of the drones benefitting from some wargear such as markerlights. This combined with unit type same as owner would indicate no need for the sentence as your defining it.

With this established then the statement leans towards all of the suits being able to take the drones.

**asugradinwa**

Poorly written entry. The way I play it is that ASS is given to the broadsides and then the team leader can take drones with the hard wired drone controller.

**Steelmage99**

asugradinwa wrote:Poorly written entry. The way I play it is that ASS is given to the broadsides and then the team leader can take drones with the hard wired drone controller.

Please read what the thread is actually about.

**paidinfull**

First and fore most drones are NOT team members.
They are wargear. They are considered as models for the purposes of determining unit/squad size. How is it different you might ask?

You can take 1-3 Broadside Team Members so a Team can be from 1-3 members of broadside suits. A squad or unit of Broadsides can be anywhere from 1-3 suits and 1-6 drones for a max unit/squad size of 2-9.

I agree that the connotation is there that a unit without a team leader can take drones HOWEVER the wording for drones in the wargear section SPECIFICALLY STATES they can't be used without a controller.

SO a unit without a team leader can still take drones IF they are some how able to take a drone controller.

a B.A.S.S unit can most certainly include a Team leader who is equipped with a Hard Wired Drone controller and take 1-2 Drones Shield/Gun/Marker.

**paidinfull**

On another note, in 4th edition you could give A.S.S to stealth suits with a marker light... pointless but still possible. An example covered by the jet-pack reference.
Cheers
C

**synchronicity**

focusedfire wrote:The current trend of thought on these is that when attached to an infantry type model they are counted as being just wargear except where otherwise noted in their rules. {The drone casualties count towards assessing if the unit has to make a moral test}(paraphrased) being an example of one of those exceptions.

Now as wargear they would already recieve the benefits of the ASS because of their base rule of making them same unit type as their owning/controlling model. The drones wouldn't need the exception rule for using the ASS because their base rule states that they would benefit.

With respect, I disagree. Drones as wargear take the unit type as per their owner, that has been established. A USR and Unit Type are two separate things, however. Because the ASS temporarily gives a Broadside the option to use Slow and Purposeful for that turn, it doesn't change the fact that it is still an "Infantry" Unit type. That's all the Drone knows about its controller, it has no idea about its controller's USR's. When you are infantry, you cannot move and shoot heavy weapons, and that's all a drone is when taken with a Broadside.

That's why Marker Drones are able to move/shoot when taken with a Stealth team. Their unit type is "Jump Infantry (Jet Pack)" by default, and and any drones inherit that unit type, thus making them relentless. My point is, ASS changes the suits USR's, not its unit type. A drone's abilities come from its unit type, not USR's.

Also, whether Marker Drones can fire when their controller has moved with an ASS, has been FAQ'd by GW (its the last Question on the FAQ). It says they may not fire, since they don't have an ASS.

**Sazzlefrats**

Yes. The Raw arguement is cute. However, its the same arguement that Orks had before.. if you replace your sluga and choppa with a shoota, and Ork nobs with powerclaw.

I look at it like this, I bought the A.S.S. all models have it. Then I buy the drones, they are wargear. In play, yes I have models to represent them, and they behave as models, but they are wargear for purposes of do all models of the unit have A.S.S. and they count as models for morale checks and all that. Why do they count as models for that, cause the Tau rules say that they count as models for purposes of blah blah blah, which kinda tells us they are NOT full models on their own.

But yeah, there's the RAW argument, probably more solid sounding than my dribble :p

whitedragon wrote:Can Broadsides take A.S.S. and a Drone Controller and Drones? Or, can a broadside unit with A.S.S. take more than 2 drones from the team leader's hard-wired drone controller?

From this thread:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/235239.page

**synchronicity**

Since an ASS takes up a Broadside's only system hardpoint, the only model in a Broadside team that can take a Drone Controller is the Team Leader, with a Hard-Wired Drone Controller. You must take a Drone Controller to take drones, whether or not they are wargear.

**focusedfire**

Then there is the argument that would state that the drone controller is implied as being included.

What we have is a sentence. If you take the stance that drones are limited to just the Team leader from the sentence then the sentence itself has no purpose for being there.

This is because the Team lead would already have access to the HW controller and Drones.

The drones in this situation are counted as Wargear as opposed to seperate models.

In order to treat the drones as seperate models you would have to specify first that they counted as such in this situation before writing a rule addressing them as such.

The rule states the Unit not the Team leader.

Then there is still the argument that Broadsides technically can't even take this system.

**synchronicity**

Well, you know what, you make me question my beliefs. Thanks a lot.

I wish we could write to Andy Hoare...

However, I still hold my ground about Markerdrones, Broadside ASS, and firing.

**Raxmei**

"The unit may still take drones" just clarifies that it is possible to take drones even though drones can not themselves take the upgrade. Is it necessary to say so? Possibly not. See also the cyclic ion blaster.

The team leader is part of the unit. A unit of crisis suits (legal, if pointless) could also take drone controllers and ASS.

I maintain that Broadsides can take ASS. Nothing in the ASS rules specifies that the model must have a jetpack, or must lose a special jetpack move in order to use it. Yes, it is unnecessary verbage when applied to the only sensible unit. See also the cyclic ion blaster.

**focusedfire**

@Synchronicity- Stick to your guns.

I'm debating for the fun of it at this point. I could just as easily changed sides. You've brought up some very good and valid points.

The reason I'm just debating for fun is that the dirty little secret is now out. People that play against Tau or just Hate the Tau army are going to start using this whenever we play our Tau.

If you look at the first thread, I pointed out how poorly it was worded but that I didn't want to push it really. This is because I knew that if Dakkites really started examining the Tau codex there won't even be a fieldable army by RAW.

This last part may be a bit of an exageration but a hard look at the Dex could take away broadside mobility and Markerlights due to the lack of a definition as to what is Tau.
Is it Fire warriors?
Does that count drones?
What about vehicles? They can fire a Seeker but do they benefit from the cover reducing and BS increase abilities.

Personally, Im not that anal about the rules and their wording. The thing is there are people who are that anal.

I usually just roll off if there is an in-game debate. If its a Tourny I let the judges/refs decide if we can't compromise. The over copetitive the game is life or death won't roll off even in a casual game. The thought of some guy questioning/arguing every ambiguity in my codex during a game is a real put off.

I really hope the next Codex has better wording.

PS- I'll tell you that I agree about the marker drones not being able to move and fire with the broadsides even if equipped with ASS.

**focusedfire**

Raxmei wrote:"The unit may still take drones" just clarifies that it is possible to take drones even though drones can not themselves take the upgrade. Is it necessary to say so? Possibly not. See also the cyclic ion blaster.

Its the switch from model or battlesuit to unit and the fact that the Shas'vre would already be able to take drones that kills the Team leader only interpretation.
Yes, I've seen the CIB entry. I was the one to point out the poor wording on it also.

Raxmei wrote:The team leader is part of the unit. A unit of crisis suits (legal, if pointless) could also take drone controllers and ASS.

Yes, the Team leader is a part of the unit but he is not the whole unit unless he is running as a Monat. If running as a single model unit, it seems it would have been noted. As would the line The Team leader may still take drones. But that is not what was written. Instead a blanket generalization that taken as is stating that the unit may take drones. This is a carte banche statement. It says in this situation the UNIT may take drones. There is no limiting modifier of having to buy drone controllers mentioned. Just the blanket statement.

Raxmei wrote:I maintain that Broadsides can take ASS. Nothing in the ASS rules specifies that the model must have a jetpack, or must lose a special jetpack move in order to use it. Yes, it is unnecessary verbage when applied to the only sensible unit. See also the cyclic ion blaster.

Problem is that the sentence made no seperation but instead actually stated the such model couldn't use its jet-pack move during assault if it used the Slow and Purposeful ability. The broadsides do not have jet-packs and as such the Slow and purposeful sentence as written couldn't apply to the broadsides.

Once again, Ive seen the CIB entry. I used as an example of how poorly the book was written. Beyond that they have no further bearing on the debate at hand.

**Raxmei**

I agree that it can't apply exclusively to broadsides. Interpret the sentence as referring to crisis suits and broadsides simultaneously. The model can not make _an_ additional jetpack move, if applicable. The indefinite article is less prescriptive than a possessive pronoun.

The bit about drones doesn't say you ignore other restrictions on taking drones. You will still be able to play the piano after your operation. The unit may still take drones. In other words, taking this upgrade does not affect the unit's previously existing ability to take drones within the usual restrictions. Getting into the fussy english bits again, 'may' is about permission, in contrast to 'can' which is about ability. This upgrade does not forbid you from taking drones, as opposed to this upgrade gives you the ability to take drones.

**whitedragon**

focusedfire wrote:The current trend of thought on these is that when attached to an infantry type model they are counted as being just wargear except where otherwise noted in their rules. {The drone casualties count towards assessing if the unit has to make a moral test}(paraphrased) being an example of one of those exceptions.

Now as wargear they would already recieve the benefits of the ASS because of their base rule of making them same unit type as their owning/controlling model. The drones wouldn't need the exception rule for using the ASS because their base rule states that they would benefit.

There is a difference between drones as a squad(gun drones) and drones as wargear.

Drones can't take wargear but the Tau have a precedent of the drones benefitting from some wargear such as markerlights. This combined with unit type same as owner would indicate no need for the sentence as your defining it.

With this established then the statement leans towards all of the suits being able to take the drones.

I disagree with everything you said. Drones are purchased as wargear, but once purchased:

1) They are represented by models
2) They may move, shoot and assault
3) They may be killed, and used armor saves and be allocated hits/wounds
4) They count towards the squad's number
5) They benefit from other effects of other gear and wargear

Why would they continue to enjoy some special "status" from being wargear? They don't, once purchased, they function just like other models or troopers except that if the drone controller dies, they are removed.

The only real rule that still is hanging out there that we can't agree on is whether or not a BASS team with 2 drones can use their ASS since the drones can't. The BASS does not imply anything about getting a free drone controller, that's wishful thinking. You can only take 1-2 drones on the team leader's HW Drone Controller if you equip your team with ASS.

**Krellnus**

Technically in 5e the slow and purposeful has been replaced by relentless which Jetpackers have by default. So technically it provides nothing at all.

In 4e though yes you could still take drones up to 8 on broadside teams (2 for each mem as they must take a suppourt system if one of em does, and another to for shas'vre as he can also take hardwired controller.

**KaloranSLC**

Replaced? You mean that Relentless was added to Slow & Purposeful, right?

**Krellnus**

yeah my bad

**focusedfire**

@Whitedragon- You bring up some valid points about the drones. The only problem with your argument is that everything you mentioned was had it own special section in the book to denote their special rules that lets them be different from other wargear.

Also did you notice that the paragraph you insist on attaching the line to also says that all models must be similarly equipped. That sets more of a precedent for the intention than your Team leader argument. the entire paragragh is stressing sameness within the unit.

Now your either gonna hate me or love me for this next one.

Finally

, Show me where in the Tau Codex that it says that I HAVE to take a drone controller to take drones.

Go ahead, I'll wait.

**onlainari**

Not a single unit in the army can purchase drones, so it's a pointless question focusedfire.

Lots of models can purchase drone controllers though, do you want me to point out where drone controllers give me 1 or 2 drones? Surely you know where to find that rule.

**focusedfire**

Go ahead and re-read the drone controller entry. There is no stipulation stated that in order to buy drones that you have to buy a controller.

Actually by RAW if you buy the drone controller you end up suffering all sorts of negatives that are unnecessary.

Here are the GW rules from both the battlesuit wargear entry and the seperate drone entry:

"Drone Controller"
"A drone controller acts as a hub for communications between the operator and a number of drones. A model with a drone controller must take one or two Gun, Marker or Shield drones, in any combination, from the Wargear list."

"Drones"
"Drones are independent artificial intelligences, programmed to protect the Tau. Unlike the Imperium, The Tau make extensive use of machine intelligences. Normally drones will require regular orders from a Tau, but when several intelligences are networked together in a squadron they become capable of acting independently for a long period."

"Drones under the command of a drone controller are counted when assing if the unit they are with should take a morale check having taken 25% casualties. They are similarly counted when determing if the unit is strong enough to claim an objective. If their unit suffers losses, drones are counted when determing if it is below 50% for Victory Point purposes."

"Drones must maintain coherency with the unit their controller is in. If he is an independent Character then the drones and character form a unit but the character and drones may still join another unit. If the character with the drone controller is killed then all his drones are removed at the end of the Shooting or Assault phase in which he died."

First, Tons of horrible wording here.

Second, If you take a drone controller then all sorts of negatives, restrictions, and mandatory drone purchases apply.

Third, Nowhere does it state or restrict a Tau player to buying a Drone Controller in order to buy drones.

**onlainari**

Where the hell does it let a team leader buy drones?

**Gwar!**

onlainari wrote:Where the hell does it let a team leader buy drones?

Upgrade to Shas'vre and buy a hard-wired drone controller

**Maj. Tom**

Woot to focused fire's last statement. The wording can be taken that anyone with access to battlesuit wargear can take drones (since they are listed under wargear), but those without can take the DC which requires them to take 1-2 of any type(s) of drone.

And as to whether or not broadsides can take it i say they can because:

codex wrote: During the Movement phase, the battlesuit may choose to use the Slow and Purposeful universal special rule for the remainder of the turn, though, if it does it may not make an additional jetpack move in the Assault phase.

Had it said "must give up its additional jetpack.." then the ability would be dependant on said sacrifice.
As it stands it states that use of the S&P invalidates any jetpacking privileges the battlesuit would have for that turn.

Also, the use of the word BATTLESUIT implys that drones are not counted among the models per sé, and therefore are not required to take the ASS with the rest of thier unit

**focusedfire**

By Raw you don't have to buy Drone Controllers to get the drones, Gwar.

@Olanari- The drones are listed under wargear and at the top of the Crisis/Battlesuit Armoury it does cover the part about crisis suits being able to buy wargear. Probably not in the way intended but it is covered.

It says that, "A model in a Battlesuit that has access to the Armoury may also choose up to 100 points from the Battlesuit Wargear list."

Thing is, as laid out all XV-8 and XV-88 Battlesuits have access because all the weapons and support systems lists are listed in the Battlesuit Armoury. This gives them auto access to the wargear list by RAW.

**Gwar!**

Maj. Tom, that's a horrible example of selective quoting, the rest of the rule details:

Also If one model in a team has advanced stabilisation then all models in the team must be similarly equipped, and if one model makes use of the system, all must do so.

Note how it says "model" not "battlesuit"
Yes its poor writing but that's how the cookie crumbles.

**focusedfire**

Did anyone catch that by RAW any XV-8 or XV-88 can take from the wargear list.

This means that even though there is nothing forcing you to take the Drone Controller in order to take drones, You can Take a Hard Wired controller on any XV-8 or XV-88.

Edit for incorrect statment that is stated correctly a few post down.

**whitedragon**

focusedfire wrote:Go ahead and re-read the drone controller entry. There is no stipulation stated that in order to buy drones that you have to buy a controller.

Actually by RAW if you buy the drone controller you end up suffering all sorts of negatives that are unnecessary.

Here are the GW rules from both the battlesuit wargear entry and the seperate drone entry:

"Drone Controller"
"A drone controller acts as a hub for communications between the operator and a number of drones. A model with a drone controller must take one or two Gun, Marker or Shield drones, in any combination, from the wargear list."

"Drones"
"Drones are independent artificial intelligences, programmed to protect the Tau. Unlike the Imperium, The Tau make extensive use of machine intelligences. Normally drones will require regular orders from a Tau, but when several intelligences are networked together in a squadron they become capable of acting independently for a long period."

"Drones under the command of a drone controller are counted when assing if the unit they are with should take a morale check having taken 25% casualties. They are similarly counted when determing if the unit is strong enough to claim an objective. If their unit suffers losses, drones are counted when determing if it is below 50% for Victory Point purposes."

"Drones must maintain coherency with the unit their controller is in. If he is an independent Character then the drones and character form a unit but the character and drones may still join another unit. If the character with the drone controller is killed then all his drones are removed at the end of the Shooting or Assault phase in which he died."

First, Tons of horrible wording here.

Second, If you take a drone controller then all sorts of negatives, restrictions, and mandatory drone purchases apply.

Third, Nowhere does it state or restrict a Tau player to buying a Drone Controller in order to buy drones.

I really am struggling to infer the same things you are from my reading of the codex. I think you are looking for something that is not there, and I think you are making conclusions based on false assumptions. I also don't have my book with me at the moment, but I will go over it more closely when I get home.