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Razerous wrote:

Lord Spirit wrote:

Razerous wrote:30 orks charging 5 termies will spank the termies down. They'll take more casulities (compared to none) if the termies have lightning claws. This is before any TH/PK wielding nobs get to swing.

You should check the Daemon Hunter Codex page 25 where are the weapons what termies can wield...

30 slugga boys will kill 5 terminators at I4. So unless those terminators have more than 1 wound, better than 2+ saves (Impossible says Mr. Worf) or can somhow take out loads of orks at I5... Then I dont see how the squad survives?

they do have better saves. they have a 2+ armor save, and a 5+ invulnerable save, which is taken after the armor saves. this isn't a miracle, but it makes a difference. and, if the player is smart, they'll add an incinerator (1) to their list. very useful against orks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

phantommaster wrote:Ten Grey Knight Termies. 4atks each, with an extra three for the Grand Master. So I make that 43atks when I go first, they lose big time.

yeah, um.... you've only got 24 attacks there, termies don't get true grit, sad to say, and the grand master has 4 attacks. he doesn't count for it either. if you shoot at them first, you might thin them out and you'd have a chance, but that's how you're supposed to play anyways, with shooting gak. it's a respectable squad, but also, you can only have 9 termies, giving you 22 attacks. i play GK, but assault is NOT how you play these guys. arguing that you can fight an Ork horde with 9 termies and a GM in assault isn't a good argument, especially when you've got your stats wrong dude. now, INCINERATORS, even one will give you a fighting chance on its own.

crazypsyko666 wrote:

they do have better saves. they have a 2+ armor save, and a 5+ invulnerable save, which is taken after the armor saves. this isn't a miracle, but it makes a difference. and, if the player is smart, they'll add an incinerator (1) to their list. very useful against orks.

yeah, um.... you've only got 24 attacks there, termies don't get true grit, sad to say, and the grand master has 4 attacks. he doesn't count for it either. if you shoot at them first, you might thin them out and you'd have a chance, but that's how you're supposed to play anyways, with shooting gak. it's a respectable squad, but also, you can only have 9 termies, giving you 22 attacks. i play GK, but assault is NOT how you play these guys. arguing that you can fight an Ork horde with 9 termies and a GM in assault isn't a good argument, especially when you've got your stats wrong dude. now, INCINERATORS, even one will give you a fighting chance on its own.

I know this thread has careened wildly off topic but I can't help but feel an obligation to point out a couple of very big mistakes. You only ever get to make one armour save against a given wound, meaning that if you choose to roll on your 2+ save you don't also get to roll for your 5++ invulnerable save. Page 24. Oh, and 9 GK terminators with a Grand master get 32 attacks on the charge. Not 43. Not 24. 32.

3 attacks for each troop (2+1 for charging) 5 for Grand master (4+1). That wasn't so hard

Incinerators sound great in theory don't they? If the ork player has any sense and spreads out their troops (like they should) you will only probably ever get 6 orks hit maximum (of course this isn't always the case, but it is very common unless you can force their movement CC, Tank shocks.....). Also there is the issue of range, orks have a "danger zone" of 13-18 inches on the turn they WAAAGH so if you are close enough to use a flamer assault will be imminent anyway, at which point it would be better to charge than be charged. Orks are not as scary without charging bonus's.

They might have good saves, but make them take enough and they will fail enough to die. That's how Terminators get ripped up in CC by weak swarm enemies, like Orks Boyz, Gauntz, Guardsmen, etc. The Terminators just have an assumed air of invincibility around them, knowing how to exploit that is how to play them properly.

n0t_u wrote:They might have good saves, but make them take enough and they will fail enough to die. That's how Terminators get ripped up in CC by weak swarm enemies, like Orks Boyz, Gauntz, Guardsmen, etc. The Terminators just have an assumed air of invincibility around them, knowing how to exploit that is how to play them properly.

Cause 30 wounds and 5 terminators will die 100% of the time on average. That's not that hard to do with a large squad of anything. I will actually vouch that my one termy squad took 60 shots and it was the last round of shots that killed them. It was all rending too (SoB).

It COULD happen but truthfully 30 boyz vs. 5 termies when the boyz get the charge im going with the boyz. I think it's who gets to shoot and assault first and they have the upper hand.

We should also look at the point difference, 9 GKT with a grand marshall would cost ALOT more than 20 ork boys with a PK nob.

Gutteridge wrote:We should also look at the point difference, 9 GKT with a grand marshall would cost ALOT more than 20 ork boys with a PK nob.

Somewhere around 3 times more.

9 GKT= 414pts
Grand Master= 145pts
559pts

don't know how many points orks are

phantommaster wrote:9 GKT= 414pts
Grand Master= 145pts
559pts

don't know how many points orks are

30 orks without a nob is 180

30 orks with a nob w/ PK + BP = 220

So either 90 orks or 60 orks w/ PK nobs + 20 orks.

Math hammering it, if you had a unit of 30 boys that managed to charge a unit of 9 GKs+ a Captain, you would end up with a Captain you would end up with 21 attacks and go first.

GKs would kill on average 12 boyz, who would then in turn kill 3 GKs. Boyz would then take another 10 wounds for being fearless and losing the battle, bringing them down to 8 models.

They would then be killed on the following turn on average by the remaining 7 GKs without getting to have a second chance at them.

So - no great surprise that even without an incinerator a large GK group being assaulted by a big mob would pwn them...

Balancing the points then (4xGKs vs 30boyz):

GKs kill 5 boyz. The remaining 25 boyz kill 4 GKs.

Four of the boyz are now the proud owners of the fanciest kebab skewers an ork could desire.