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Its Lashing units into a vortex grenade template.

I lost belial and 3 full DW units to this, this is total cheese

Shep wrote:I haven't had a problem countering out-flanking armies just by using smart deployment and smart objective placement.

Make sure that you are playing on an appropriate sized table.

I don't want to go round and round, but there are simply limits to what you can do to properly counter a good Flank March army. If the flanking component is, say, assault terminators in crusaders, and they have Careful Planning (from the Battle Company formation, perhaps) and buy a couple of speeders to keep in reserve to allow the termies in, you have to deploy 20" in from the table edges to avoid a charge. You can pack the entire table edge with vehicles, but that's tougher to pull off on a properly sized board.

It's not an autowin, but it's a huge advantage is properly used by the opponent. Keep in mind that most Apoc games are set up before hand, so each player knows roughly what they other is bringing, so you can optimized your Flankers.

If your group is a bit more gentlemanly about it, than there's no need to ban it, but I've long argued that a properly built and played Apoc army that uses Flank March should have little trouble defeating a similar army that does not.

Polonius wrote:

Shep wrote:I haven't had a problem countering out-flanking armies just by using smart deployment and smart objective placement.

Make sure that you are playing on an appropriate sized table.

I don't want to go round and round, but there are simply limits to what you can do to properly counter a good Flank March army. If the flanking component is, say, assault terminators in crusaders, and they have Careful Planning (from the Battle Company formation, perhaps) and buy a couple of speeders to keep in reserve to allow the termies in, you have to deploy 20" in from the table edges to avoid a charge. You can pack the entire table edge with vehicles, but that's tougher to pull off on a properly sized board.

It's not an autowin, but it's a huge advantage is properly used by the opponent. Keep in mind that most Apoc games are set up before hand, so each player knows roughly what they other is bringing, so you can optimized your Flankers.

If your group is a bit more gentlemanly about it, than there's no need to ban it, but I've long argued that a properly built and played Apoc army that uses Flank March should have little trouble defeating a similar army that does not.

I think we can keep it from a round and round while still discussing it. The easiest way to counter out flanking is to just heavy use of reserves.

Somnicide ruined me with this tactic a few times in a row before I realized that my flank march asset was hard-countered.

His method for countering it is to only deploy units on the table that have good stationary long range shooting, or really aggressive elements that he wants in the neutral zone, shooting and holding the no man's land objectives. Everything else is held in reserve. the shooters are deployed back a bit off the line, but since his whole army doesn't have to set up on the table, he isn't forced to keep anything within 20" of the table edge.

Reserves come on in such a controllable way, and with such a large area with which to come on. Pretty much one long edge and one short edge, basically half the table. Using reserves extensively is a big part to playing apocalypse well.

Your careful planning outflank units show up on Somnicides short edge, and can possibly shoot at and maybe even charge a couple of his stationary long range shooters, you do your marginal damage to unimportant units, then his reserves show up, behind your own outflankers, shoot them dead and/or charge them. Your second half of reserves show up, and maybe you outflank them again. Then his second wave comes in, and takes over his own zone. Your spent at this point, he's got his own zone objectives handled. And is still putting pressure on your zone with units that he deployed farther up.

Flank march is effectively useless for the most part now that we've all copied Somnicide's tactic. Strategic redeployment has become a more valuable asset to us.

How bout the fate weaver chaos altar combo which can let some units get 2+inv saves with rerolls.

worst part is unlike most assets there is no way in raw to destroy it the altar that is

DeathwingBoy wrote:

Its Lashing units into a vortex grenade template.

I lost belial and 3 full DW units to this, this is total cheese

I don't think you can do that as the vortex grenade only kills things during its movement or whatever its not a dead zone on the board so i don't get how you could be lashed into it

You get lashed into it and then they die in the next turn.

Gwar! wrote:

Nofasse 'Eadhunta wrote:Lash actually does work on vehicles. Any 'Unit' can be Lashed. Since vehicles are units...you get the idea. This can mean that you can make a vehicle pivot or Tank Shock it's own team. You can turn it around for your Oblits and their Lascannons

I'm not so sure that it works on Titan units. Make a Stompa stomp da Green Tide LOL.

Oh gee, why didn't we think of that! All those silly Chaos Players running dual lash are such idiots.

Oh wait, perhaps because the rules for Lash state a "Non-Vehicle Unit", huh?

My mistake, no need to be a jerk about it.