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As we have said, that just lets you know they are "counted as" HQ when something needs to know (such as Dawn of War Deployment), but they are not an actual HQ Choice.

Augustus wrote:

Ghaz wrote:And your 'trump' doesn't change anything. Counting as a separate HQ unit does not mean that it fills a compulsory choice on the Force Organization chart. In fact, the codex clearly says that it doesn't:

Techpriests Enginseers do not use up any Force Organization Chart selections...

You can't have it both ways. This is where the codex cllearly says that he can NOT count as your compulsory HQ choice on the Force Organization chart. Your 'trump' just means that for everything else he counts as an HQ choice, nothing more.

How could that be? What does "counts as a seperate HQ choice" mean then Ghaz?

Earlier in this post I admitted that I thought at first that not taking a FO slot would mean this wouldn't work, but the exception, "otherwise counts as a seprate HQ choice" is pretty specific language. The way you are outlining it: 'it doesnt count as an HQ choice' is in direct opposition to the last codex specific rule in question here. I see what you are saying, if it doesnt actually take the box how can it be the madnatory HQ right? Thats because it counts as an HQ choice:

"otherwise counts as a seprate HQ choice"

strait out of the codex.

@Augustus:
I think you're spot on with this one. Not counting, for the purposes of the FOC, as an HQ, only goes toward the overall min/max of HQs you are allowed to have and in no way affects the compulsory requirement in your army. Augustus is absolutely correct when he asserts that 'otherwise counts as a seperate HQ choice allows you satisfy the 1 HQ requirement.

Gwar! wrote:As we have said, that just lets you know they are "counted as" HQ when something needs to know (such as Dawn of War Deployment), but they are not an actual HQ Choice.

Or for something else you might need to know it for ... like where they fit in the force org?

"but they are not an actual HQ Choice." /= "Do not use up any Force Organisation chart selections"

Not counting towards the 1-2 HQ "limit" and not counting towards having 1 required HQ are two different issues.

In that case I would also think that You could take nothing but summoned demons for your troops in a CSM army.

What does counts as a separate HQ choice mean? Are you purposely being impudent? Anybody with half a lick of sense can answer that. Its like asking a butcher what is beef or asking a surgeon what is a scalpel. Just be honest and say "I will play the way I want regardless of anybody elses opinion that differs from mine."

G

And again, try reading the whole rule:

Techpriests Enginseers do not use up any Force Organization Chart selections..

You're trying to cherry pick what rules you want to use by ignoring half the rule. We've explained what it means, yet you keep insisting that it means that he can be used to fill a compulsory choice on the Force Organization chart when the first half of the very same sentence tells you quite clearly that he can not.

I am not much for the back and forth so I will leave Ghaz and Gwar to thier future victims of endless rules debate.

I believe I stated my points taking in all considerations and all written rules that pertain to the subject. "cherry picking" is something I try and avoid.

Ghaz wrote:And again, try reading the whole rule:

Techpriests Enginseers do not use up any Force Organization Chart selections..

You're trying to cherry pick what rules you want to use by ignoring half the rule. We've explained what it means, yet you keep insisting that it means that he can be used to fill a compulsory choice on the Force Organization chart when the first half of the very same sentence tells you quite clearly that he can not.

Nice try, you're actually ignoring the second half, I explained it. This is circular.

No, I'm not the one who's ignoring anything. You're the one who's trying to lead is to believe that the second half of the sentence says the complete opposite of the first half. So once again, it means that although he does not use a compulsory selection on the Force Organization chart, for all other purposes he counts as a separate HQ choice and not a part of your compulsory (or optional) HQ choices.

"Counts as separate HQ choice" means that he's his own squad, not a member chosen as part of another or as an upgrade.

Honestly, just stop and think about RaI for a second here. It wouldn't make sense for a priest or an enginseer to lead an army because they don't have a rank in the IG.

GW felt the need to specify that the EC can occupy a FOC mandatory choice because he does not take up a slot, which means that you can assume that this is not normally the case

Seems reasonably ambiguous and not particularly broken, I'd certainly let you do it playing me but I can understand some folks not liking it, ask yakface to add it to the FAQ (assuming its not there already).

Jack

"An Imperial Guard Army May Include 0-5 Ministorum Priests. Priests do not use up any Force Organisation Chart Slots, but are otherwise treated as seperate HQ Units.

One box on the chart allows you to make one selection from that part of your army list. Dark boxes are compulsory selections. As you can see, normally you will have to take at least one HQ selection and two Troops selections. These compulsory choices ensure that whatever else you select, your force will have a core within it that is representative of that army. This is rarely a disadvantage and many players often use the maximum number of Troops selections.

In the rulebook it says that you must take one HQ selection, that is to say you must put at least one unit from the HQ section of your codex into your army. Nowhere does it say that the unit you choose must fill one slot on the FoC. In the priest's rules it says it does not fill a slot on the FoC, but otherwise counts as, and is treated as, a HQ selection/unit. So a priest is a HQ selection from the HQ section of the IG codex. If it fills a slot on the FoC or not is irrelevant, it is still a selection.

You do realize that you need to Fill those slots to have a legal army right?

Gwar! wrote:The funny thing is I bet If I was in support of them counting as the mandatory HQ everyone would say they wouldn't, but I digress.

Oh get over yourself....

Gwar! wrote:The Black Templars FAQ works for Black Templars ONLY. To claim anything else is just ridiculous imo.

The way I see it is this:
-No the Black Templar FAQ doesn't mean that this also applies to the IG
-BUT-
-it does give some insight into the way GW approaches situations that are very similar with other armies.

Thus, I think it is fair to say that although a slot isn't taken up on the FoC by the Priest or Enginseer, they still count as an HQ. The rules specify that at least a single HQ unit must be taken per army, it does not say that it must be "within the FoC". Sometimes what isn't written is as important as what is.

I'm not saying that I would necessarily mind letting an opponent in a friendly game take a Priest or Enginseer as their leader. But this seems very iffy at best, and I wouldn't bet on it in a tournament or an opponent who's not just looking for a good game.

Gadhip wrote:Nowhere does it say that the unit you choose must fill one slot on the FoC.

Yes it does. Once again, from page 87 of the Warhammer 40,000 5th edition rulebook:

One box on the chart allows you to make one selection from that part of your army list. Dark boxes are compulsory selections. As you can see, normally you will have to take at least one HQ selection and two Troops selections. These compulsory choices ensure that whatever else you select, your force will have a core within it that is representative of that army. This is rarely a disadvantage and many players often use the maximum number of Troops selections.

And from page 93 of Codex Imperial Guard:

An Imperial Guard Army May Include 0-2 Techpriest Enginseers. Techpriest Enginseers do not use up any Force Organisation chart selections, but are otherwise treated as seperate HQ units.

So how are you filling your cumpulsory Force Organization chart selection with a unit that does not use up any Force Organization chart selections?

If the model does not take up a slot, how can it fill said slot? How is that so hard to understand.

I know I'm jumping into a boiling kettle with this one, but I think I may have an explanation that follows both arguements yet comes out with one answer. Having played two games now with the new codex I wont even begin to pose that "I know all" with new IG codex, nor did I even think about having an Enginseer as the Manditory HQ. That being said. Here is my insight.

The codex says an Enginseer doesn't USE UP any Force Organisation chart selection. Then the codex goes on to say that the Enginseer is still treated as a HQ unit (as quoted and shown by others). Perhaps the way of viewing this is that the Enginseer does get put into the Force Organisation chart, but doesn't reduce the total available slots.

The Enginseer gets added into the "Dark Box compulsory" slot, and because it doesn't USE UP one of the two HQ slots, a second "Light Box non-compulsory" is added to the FOC to still allow two HQ's to be picked. This would make the FOC look to have three HQ slots, but because of the Enginseer's rule of it not using up an HQ slot, you could still bring two other HQ choices and fit within the FOC.

This way of thinking takes into account all the wordings from both the codex, the rulebook, and even makes sense of the BT FAQ.

There still is alot of question, even in my mind, if this is RAI. There seems to be both supporting and detracting arguements right from the entry itself. From how it is colored grey and put to the side, to how it doesn't have any prerequisites to fill and says treated as seperate HQ. In the end, I think RAI is argueable, but RAW (to me at least) seems to be clear.

Hope this new angle helps.

*edited for clarity and grammar, and in doing so misspelt grammar, so edited a second time... then found more things....*

@Ghaz
You made "...Dark boxes are compulsory selections..." bold, all that proves is that you have to select one, not that it has to fill a slot. If you read the priest's entry it says "does not take up a FoC slot, as in the total number you can have. In your post you have "Techpriest Enginseers do not use up any Force Organisation chart selections" if you look back and see what I posted it says slots, not selections. Maybe the entry for priests and techpriests are different. I was saying priests and it says slots.

And yet again, how are you using up any compulsory selections if the unit you took does not use up any selections to begin with? It doesn't matter that you said 'slots' or not. You misquoted the rules to suit yourself. It says 'selections', not 'slots'. As the rules actually read, your argument does not hold weight.

Deewalla wrote:The codex says an Enginseer doesn't USE UP any Force Organisation chart selection. Then the codex goes on to say that the Enginseer is still treated as HQ units (as quoted and shown by others). Perhaps the way of viewing this is that the Enginseer does get put into the Force Organisation chart, but doesn't reduce the total available slots.

He either uses up a selection on the chart or he doesn't. There is no halfway points where he both does and does not use up a selection.

Deewalla wrote:The Enginseer gets added into the "Dark Box compulsory" slot, and because it doesn't USE UP one of the two HQ slots, a second "Light Box non-compulsory" is added to the FOC to allow two HQ's to be picked. This would in essence make the FOC have three HQ slots, normally not allowed, but because of the Enginseer's rule of it not counting it is permitted.

The only way the Enginseer can be 'added' to the compulsory Force Orgainization chart selection is if he uses a Force Organization chart selection to begin with. He doesn't He doesn't use up a selection and give you another selection. As the rules quite clearly state, he does NOT use up a Force Organization chart selection, period.

@Ghaz,

I am cirtain I will not be able to change your mind. My approach to the question lies within the difference of "using" and "using up".

As you say, "The only way the Enginseer can be 'added' to the compulsory Force Orgainization chart selection is if he uses a Force Organization chart selection to begin with."
The Enginseer rules do not say "do not use a HQ slot in the FOC".
They do say, that the Enginseer "do not use up a HQ slot in the FOC."

I see it as the difference between the Enginseer using a HQ slot but still allowing for two HQ slots to be used by other choices, and the Enginseer using up a HQ slot, exhausting it, and only allowing one other HQ slot to be used.

As I stated, I do not see anything I have said to change your mind. I might not think you to be correct in your beliefs, but I will not tell you that you are wrong to believe them.

Huh, we all agree he doesn't use a slot.

The argument here is whether he can be the SOLE HQ for the army since he does not occupy a slot.

It says he doesnt use up a slot.

Not that he doesnt use a slot.

Deewalla wrote:The Enginseer rules do not say "do not use a HQ slot in the FOC".
They do say, that the Enginseer "do not use up a HQ slot in the FOC."

No, it says neither. The word 'slot' is NEVER used. I've already quoted what it says twice, but here it is again:

Techpriest Enginseers do not use up any Force Organisation chart selections, but are otherwise treated as seperate HQ units.

You've still failed to explain how a unit that does not use up any Force Organization chart selections can be used for a compulsory Force Organization chart selection. A unit that does not use a Force Organization chart selection can't be used for a compulsory Force Organization chart selection. It's that simple. You have to make an HQ Force Organization chart selection and the Techpriest Enginseer does not use up that selection.

Ghaz, we don't have to explain it, GW has already said it can happen. Sure, the BT FAQ only applies to BT. But their phrasing in the answer implies that it applies in all cases,

Q. Can I field the Emperor’s Champion as my
one compulsory HQ choice and no other HQs in
the army?
A. Yes, even though he does not use up an HQ
slot, he is still an HQ choice, and so he can fulfill
the minimum HQ requirement.

As to the word "slot", you and I both know that people are just using that as shorthand for "Force Organization chart selection" (just as GW did in their FAQ answer on the Chump), so fussing about that is being rather silly, isn't it?

Simply put, GW has already set a precedent in another codex FAQ saying that a unit does not have to fill a Force Organization chart selection in order to fill a compulsory choice. Is it really impossible for the same situation to apply to the exact same situation for IG? Needs to be FAQed just as the Chump is, but I don't see why people are so adamantly opposed to the possibility.

What you're passing off as a 'precedent' is nothing more than GW proving that they don't know their own rules. It does not apply to anything other than the Emperor's Champion and actually changes the rules.

As written, the Techpriest Enginseer, Ministorum Priest and the Emperor's Champion can not be used for a compulsory selection on the Force Organization chart. Just because there's a contradictory FAQ for the Champion does not change the rules for the other two.

Ghaz, I agree that the FAQ applies to nothing more than the Chump. And definitely not going to claim that GW knows it's own rules, they've made that abundantly clear.
Yet how can you deny that a ruling on a similar situation (almost word for word in the codexes) does not qualify as a possible precedent? Similar rules, similar situation, one could expect a similar ruling when/if they ever FAQ it. And in the meantime, the BT FAQ throws enough dust in the air to make the IG status murky as far as what is or is not allowed.

don_mondo wrote:Yet how can you deny that a ruling on a similar situation (almost word for word in the codexes) does not qualify as a possible precedent?

For the reasons both you and Ghaz outlined before, namely the parts about GW not knowing their own rules, and putting rules changes in their FAQ's when by their own admission FAQ's mean nothing official.

Ghaz wrote:

Deewalla wrote:The Enginseer rules do not say "do not use a HQ slot in the FOC".
They do say, that the Enginseer "do not use up a HQ slot in the FOC."

No, it says neither. The word 'slot' is NEVER used. I've already quoted what it says twice, but here it is again:

Techpriest Enginseers do not use up any Force Organisation chart selections, but are otherwise treated as seperate HQ units.

You've still failed to explain how a unit that does not use up any Force Organization chart selections can be used for a compulsory Force Organization chart selection. A unit that does not use a Force Organization chart selection can't be used for a compulsory Force Organization chart selection. It's that simple. You have to make an HQ Force Organization chart selection and the Techpriest Enginseer does not use up that selection.

It's because you are treating 'Compulsory' as an almost seperate entity/category in and of itself. All that the compulsory mechanic does is specify a minimum count for a particular FOC. In general, no HQ is labeled as Compulsory. I say in general, because though I can't think of one of the top of my head, there may be a couple of HQs across armies that you might be required to take in certain circumstances. It is compulsory to take at least one HQ selection.

Priests, Enginseers, etc do not take up a selection on the FOC, but are treated in every other aspect as an HQ selection. So these units do not contribute toward the min/maxof the HQ FOC (i.e., 1-2 HQs). They all count as HQ selections though and would satisfy the compulsory requirement of having at least one HQ.

Please actually read the rules. What is compulsory by the rules? An HQ Force Organization chart selection is what is compulsory. As clearly spelt out in Codex Imperial Guard, a Techpriest Enginseer does not use up any Force Organization chart selections.

You're trying to make up an imaginary category that's not supported by the rules in the least. There are only Force Organization chart selections that are either optional or compulsory. There is nothing else.

Edit: to YAD:

Ah, so by your assertion I only need 1 GD and not a daemon prince or Chaos Lord / Sorceror? They have the exact same wording

Or I dont need any CSM, I can just have lesser daemons - after all, they dont take up any Troop FOC selections, but by your reckoning they can somehow fill the compulsory ones.

So, realised how rediculous an assertion it is yet?

Sigh.

If you don't use up a selection you never appear on the FOC chart. If you don't appear on the chart how do you fill up a slot? Oh wait, you can't - those dark boxes are still there, waiting for an entry that does actually count.