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"Unless otherwise specified, no save or other special rule can rescue the unit at this stage, for them the battle is over".

How are you complying with that part of the SA rule if you are giving them a WBB roll after? If they get a WBB roll, certainly for them the battle is not over.

The rules go far out of the way to show that the SA unit is completely and utterly gone unless you have a special rule specifically exempting them from it. It uses fluffy explanations and reiterates in a number of different ways that a unit caught by a SA is gone (for them the battle is over).

The main thing is that it isnt timing: You remove units, not individual models. You lay the model down, as WBB says. After cmobat you roll for SA and lose - at this point you remove the unit INCLUDING the downed models. They are always part of the unit at this point as a) you are never told they are not and b) the monolith rules tells you they are.

nosferatu1001 wrote:The main thing is that it isnt timing: You remove units, not individual models. You lay the model down, as WBB says. After cmobat you roll for SA and lose - at this point you remove the unit INCLUDING the downed models. They are always part of the unit at this point as a) you are never told they are not and b) the monolith rules tells you they are.

QFT.

Its really, really simple. WBB doesn't say it works against SA, so it doesn't work!

Ok, I think they can settle for that, thanks for the time to clarify.

They add, however, that without an official FAQ they still see it in their favor as you see it as theirs. It's not so much a one-way distinction in the rules, rather, how they take phases, timing, and what removal is.

Either way, I won't waste any more of your time with this little conundrum. Thanks again, and also thanks for not flaming!

They really cant argue against it: not only does SA require a specific rule to override it you are told it removes entire units: unless you have a rule which prevent removal of units you are SOL.

WBB was even used as an example, in 4th ed, of a rule that did not save you from SA. They kept the language exactly the same just removed the reference to WBB.

nosferatu1001 wrote:They really cant argue against it: not only does SA require a specific rule to override it you are told it removes entire units: unless you have a rule which prevent removal of units you are SOL.

WBB was even used as an example, in 4th ed, of a rule that did not save you from SA. They kept the language exactly the same just removed the reference to WBB.

IIRC they added the part about no special rule in place of specifying WBB.

So, I went and Dug out my 4th ed rulebook:

Page 43, 4th ed BGB wrote:
The destroyed unit(s) is removed immediately. No Invulnerable Save or other special rule (such as the Necrons We'll be Back special rule) can save the unit at this stage; for them the battle is over and they can take no further useful part in the fighting

Compared to:

Page 40, 5th ed BRB wrote:The destroyed unit is removed immediately. Unless otherwise specified , no save or other special rule can rescue the unit at this stage; for them the battle is over.

As you can see, other than the Prose and other extra bits, the rules are Identical. The only difference is that the 5th edition rule removes a lot of silly redundancies (such as the Invulnerable bit and the refference to WBB) and reminds you that a rule saying "This ignores Sweeping Advance" (which WBB does not) ignores it (under 4th ed wording, it does not allow for something to over-ride it if needed)

Did GW really FAQ that DOWNED necrons FALL BACK with their unit, when they run away?

Of course, because downed necrons are still part of the unit they started with.

It is how the monolith can still work on them.

It was actually consistent ruling for once, as it reinforces that the downed necrons are still part of their "parent" unit until the point at which WBB eligibility is determined, when they may join a different unit.

It hammers mroe nails into the coffin of peopl who really think WBB somehow protects you from SA, when it really, truly, 100% crystal clear does not.

All units ( i think) have some sort of save so i think the guys who wrote the rulebook MIGHT have taken this into account

Jalil wrote:

Sweeping advance does not allow WBB, period.

You're entitled to your opinion, but please show me where it says that in the rules.

If YOU want to use the 'unless otherwise noted' clause of the SA rule to avoid it's effect, YOU will have to show it's actually NOTED in the WBB rule, as in specifically referring to 'sweeping advance'.
To override SA the WBB rule would need to have an explicit reference to SA, like for example: "units may still use WBB after a sweeping advance".

While the sweeping advance itself definitely destroys the remaining models in the unit beyond WBB, I think the models that fell down in combat, who would otherwise be eligible, are still on the ground and if you have another Necron of the same type within 6" or a Tomb Spyder within 12" they'd be able to make their roll.

When the model is laid down, it is considered "battlefield debris." Although it is moved with the unit when it is falling back (and I have no idea why), I haven't seen it written anywhere that says downed models are still considered part of the unit they were downed in. Using the Monolith's text of teleporting a unit with downed Necrons to try and make sense of this just seems a little clunky to me. It doesn't specify that downed models are still considered part of their units in the WBB rule itself, and it even says they join the nearest unit of the same type when they get back up (not their own unit, which you might think they would join if that were the case).

I'm not trying to flame or drag something on, but I've typically played it where models that fall down in combat when their unit gets swept can try to make their WBB rolls if they would still be eligible, and I'd like to see a little more deliberation on why that isn't the case.

WRONG WRONG WRONG

This has been proven incorrect 12000 times and counting.

1) the downed models are still part of their parent unit, fact =- shown by the monolith rules and the fact you are never told they are not

2) SA removes whole UNITS not MODELS therefore the downed models must be removed, as this is before the next turn no WBB is possble

PLEASE search before posting....

nosferatu1001 wrote:WRONG WRONG WRONG

This has been proven incorrect 12000 times and counting.

1) the downed models are still part of their parent unit, fact =- shown by the monolith rules and the fact you are never told they are not

2) SA removes whole UNITS not MODELS therefore the downed models must be removed, as this is before the next turn no WBB is possble

PLEASE search before posting....

First, let's take a step back and have a deep breath. Remember, it's only a game. You don't need to act condescending because you think you're right. Nice and calm? Excellent, let's continue the discussion.

Why does the Monolith's special rule, aka it's Power Matrix teleportation, influence a sweeping advance or any other part of a turn? Should it do so even if no Monolith is present? I think you should take it as written, that for purposes of teleporting a unit through a Monolith you take the dead ones with them. I have seen nothing to suggest you would take it beyond that.

While sweeping advance removes the unit, something I agree with, I do not think dead Necrons are part of the unit. If they are part of the unit, can I allocate further wounds to them? Throw their attacks in close combat? etc. It creates a lot of issues that I don't think are intended.

Perhaps you should have searched like I suggested?

Monolith rules - you may teleport the unit through, giving you a second WBB attempt. Note the word:unit used there, its kinda important. Answer this: if the Necrons who are awaiting WBB NOT part of the same unit, then how do they get pulled thruogh? This ALONE is sufficient to prove that the downed necrons must be considered part of their parent unit.

even without that you still fail to show where the downed necrons are specifically not part of their parent unit - and you cannot do so.

End. Of. Argument. This really should be a sticky - WBB does not, in any way shape or form protect a unit from WBB. Nada. Zip. Zilch.

First, let's take a step back and have a deep breath. Remember, it's only a game. You don't need to act condescending because you think you're right. Nice and calm? Excellent, let's continue the discussion.

Nice. So you scold the guy for being condescending in a condescending way. Were you trying to be ironic?

The point is that if the downed necrons count as part of the unit in order to be teleported, then they must count as part of the unit for other purposes. You can't conveniently have them count as part of the unit when its beneficial and then suddenly say they are not part of the unit when its a bad thing. Oh yeah, and they fall back with the unit because the fall back rule states the UNIT falls back, so it includes the downed necron models.

Lesson: Can't have your cake and eat it too.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
even without that you still fail to show where the downed necrons are specifically not part of their parent unit - and you cannot do so.

Is "battlefield debris" considered part of a unit?

I do not see how the Monolith seeing them as part of a unit means WBB generally considers them to still be in their unit. They are dead models, they have 0 wounds left. They no longer follow the normal rules for being in a unit. Do dead models put me above half in my unit so I can try to consolidate if I'm falling back? Can wounds be allocated to them? Do they throw attacks in CC? If they are part of the unit, then they still act in the same way as live models. I think it makes more sense for the dead models to cease being part of that unit, and that is what the WBB rules lead me to believe. What I see the Monolith doing is creating an exception for its own ability.

Ah right, in other words you have zero rules to back you up, just a series of empty silly suggestions?

No, of course they dont count for CC, etc - they physically cannot as you are told they cannot by WBB rules. You are also told to remove the failed ones at the start of the turn, before you do anything else - including checking for rally conditions

I say again as you dont seem to get it: the Monolith rule states they are part of the unit. No reason for this is given, and no duration. Therefore they, at all times, must be part of the unit - otherwise the monolith rule could not work, ever.

I have shown you now, 3 times, the rules that state my case. You have shown absolutely nothing, zip, zilch, nada. Show me where it says "they are part of the unit but only for the monolith WBB teleport" then you may have something. If not please just give up.

I am pretty sure I have given you evidence of what I feel the case is, and you've done nothing but quote a section of the codex which doesn't back up what you're arguing at all. If the models were still considered part of the unit for all purposes, it would state so in the WBB section. Instead, it says they are considered 'battlefield debris.' You have shown me nothing that states 'battlefield debris' is still part of a unit. Saying they are in a unit implies they are "live" models, and are pretty much unaffected by the fact that they have zero wounds.

The Monolith's special rules pertain to the Monolith and its interactions with Necron models. I really don't see how you can expect a model's special rule to be in effect if the model isn't using its special rule or isn't even on the table/in the army/etc. I am trying to be reasonable, but you're not even meeting me halfway.

Does every model in every codex have its rules apply, even when it's not present, in every game? Would that really make sense?

Gwar! wrote:So, I went and Dug out my 4th ed rulebook:

Page 43, 4th ed BGB wrote:
The destroyed unit(s) is removed immediately. No Invulnerable Save or other special rule (such as the Necrons We'll be Back special rule) can save the unit at this stage; for them the battle is over and they can take no further useful part in the fighting

Compared to:

Page 40, 5th ed BRB wrote:The destroyed unit is removed immediately. Unless otherwise specified , no save or other special rule can rescue the unit at this stage; for them the battle is over.

As you can see, other than the Prose and other extra bits, the rules are Identical. The only difference is that the 5th edition rule removes a lot of silly redundancies (such as the Invulnerable bit and the refference to WBB) and reminds you that a rule saying "This ignores Sweeping Advance" (which WBB does not) ignores it (under 4th ed wording, it does not allow for something to over-ride it if needed)

I already proved it doesn't work.

The issue is whether or not dead Necrons are considered part of the unit. I am not arguing that an SA denies WBB rolls, just that these dead models are not considered part of any unit while they are dead.

Well considering they are, as evidenced by the Monolith Rules AND the fact they fall back with the unit, make saying they are not part of the unit quite laughable.

5th ed FAQ wrote:
Q. If a unit of Necrons falls back after taking casualties, how best to keep track of whether they are effected by a resurrection orb or not?
A. A Necron unit falls back, having been beaten in close combat by a unit with power weapons. However, there is a resurrection orb nearby. To keep things simple, when the casualties are suffered, assess whether they are in range of the resurrection orb. If they are, lay them down and move them with the unit. If they are not in range of the resurrection orb, remove them entirely. You will then know how many WBB rolls to make at the start of your next turn. The same logic applies if the Necrons fall back after taking shooting casualties.

While the models are moved with the unit, nowhere does it say "their unit" or "as they are still part of the unit" etc. This leads me to believe they are not part of the unit. I have no idea why the models are moved with a falling back unit, but they are. Maybe I can better describe what I'm trying to get across with a sample situation, so here's an attempt.

On your turn, you have Necron Warriors that are in close combat. They lose combat, run, but are not swept. 5 Warriors remain and 3 are eligible to make their WBB rolls, so they are moved with the unit. On your opponent's turn, they shoot down the remaining 5 Warriors. On your next turn, you have a Tomb Spyder within 12" of the downed 8 Warriors, and 5 make their WBB rolls. They are not considered part of any unit, and so move into coherency with the nearest unit of the same type. Because 3 Warriors failed their WBB rolls, you would then send another squad of Warriors through the Monolith (presumably the same squad the Warriors that successfully made their WBB rolls joined as that would likely be the only eligible choice) to give the 3 remaining Warriors a reroll on their WBB rolls.

The same applies to dead Necrons left behind after the unit they used to belong has suffered a sweeping advance. They are still on the table, and if they are within 6" of another Necron model of the same type or within 12" of a Tomb Spyder while more are on the table, they should be able to make their WBB rolls.

This is how I see the above scenario playing out. Please quote or bold the sections that you think would work out differently and let me know what should happen. I'm not trying to sound condescending, but what else am I supposed to do when someone types "WRONG WRONG WRONG" in all caps when I ask a reasonable question that is politely phrased? If you think I am trying to "talk down to you," don't. I'm just trying to be thorough.

Let this one rest guys, he can not see the obvious, obviously, (pun intended), so let him try to pull this one at his gaming group, and it is up to him to defend himself against the hilarity that would soon follow.

Agreed.

"It is better to stay quiet and Look a fool, than open it and remove all doubt." - Mark Twain

Gwar! wrote:Agreed.

"It is better to stay quiet and Look a fool, than open it and remove all doubt." - Mark Twain

"Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt." - Abraham Lincoln.

Rob:
The models were part of the unit, and then got damaged. Do you have any rule that says they stop being part of the unit?

When the unit is taken through the monolith, do you have any rule that will allow the damaged models to go through, if they are not part of the unit?

Coredump - I've already stated that point more than once, witht he answer "but how does the monolith do anything????" as the only answer.

He completely missed the point, fingers crossed you will fin d a way through

RobPro wrote:

On your turn, you have Necron Warriors that are in close combat. They lose combat, run, but are not swept. 5 Warriors remain and 3 are eligible to make their WBB rolls, so they are moved with the unit. On your opponent's turn, they shoot down the remaining 5 Warriors. On your next turn, you have a Tomb Spyder within 12" of the downed 8 Warriors, and 5 make their WBB rolls. They are not considered part of any unit, and so move into coherency with the nearest unit of the same type. Because 3 Warriors failed their WBB rolls, you would then send another squad of Warriors through the Monolith (presumably the same squad the Warriors that successfully made their WBB rolls joined as that would likely be the only eligible choice) to give the 3 remaining Warriors a reroll on their WBB rolls.

So let me get this one straight with the Monolith. You lost 3 models in CC. Failed your leadership test and got away. I can follow that.

The downed models come with the parent unit. In my turn I shoot the remainder of your unit and down the rest. Okay the whole unit has been downed.

On your turn you make 5 out of the 8 WBB rolls. Why do they have to join another unit? Aren't they the same models from the unit that was downed?

Of the 3 that are still down, you want to use the Monolith. You can't just take the 3 can you? From what I've read you need the whole unit. Which in the wording above is 8 models strong at this point. You'd take them all off and re roll.

In the wording of your example though, you have those 5 Warriors join another like unit. If they did join a 10 man unit, and you wanted to use the Monolith for the re roll of the WBB. Would you just take the 5 that just joined? or All 13 of them?

I'd say you'd have to take all 13. You can't just take part of the unit.

I know this is off topic and I happen to agree with the whole unit is wiped out, but I'm curious how this little situation would work as one of my friends plays Necrons.