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I think it's a pretty dodgy area, An apothecary is not a veteran space marine, because his unit entry says Apothecary, similarly I think the argument would go, a Nork is not an Ogryn because his unit entry says Nork.

But then, because Ogryn is capitalized everywhere, it's impossible to know what usage of Ogryn the valkyrie rules refer to, be that the model type Ogryn which the Ogryn Squad is comprised of or a race based blanket like "Tau models".

I think I would tend to agree with yakface that since the bulky special rule refers to the model that has it as an Ogryn Nork can't get in a valk, but I consider it unclear to say the least.

Why do we care about the capitalization? Nork shares a rule with Ogryn, but show me where it says he IS an ogryn. Plenty of different units/types of units share rules.

There are also fluff arguments for both sides. I think RAI he shouldn't be able to go in one of course (because he IS an Ogryn) but this may be a case like the CSM daemon prince which doesn't actually count as a daemon despite its name and fluff.

The rule he shares states that "Ogryns are..." so if you have the rule you are probably an Ogryn...

However, friendly game I'd love to see Nork, he's a fun (if rubbish) character.

Drudge Dreadnought wrote:Why do we care about the capitalization? Nork shares a rule with Ogryn, but show me where it says he IS an ogryn. Plenty of different units/types of units share rules.

There are also fluff arguments for both sides. I think RAI he shouldn't be able to go in one of course (because he IS an Ogryn) but this may be a case like the CSM daemon prince which doesn't actually count as a daemon despite its name and fluff.

1) The rules for 'Bulky' specifically mention Ogryns twice. Either Nork is an Orgryn or the 'Bulky' rule is meaningless on him.

2) Nork's description on page 67 mentions that he is an Ogryn at least five times.


I know many people will say #2 is pointless because it is just "fluff" but you have to remember that the Valkyrie rule simply says that "Ogryns" cannot be carried. It does not name a specific unit ("Ogryn Squad") so the question has to be answered, what exactly is an 'Ogryn'? Nork's fluff is a description of him and his deeds. Yes it is background material, but it does clearly specify that he is indeed an "Ogryn".


So to do it formally:

P1. Nork is indentified as an "Ogryn" in his background material on page 67 (example: "Nork Deddog is a legend in his own lifetime, an Ogryn whose fighting abilities are almost as astonishing as his mental development.")
C1. Nork is therefore an "Ogryn".

P2. The Valkyrie/Vendetta rules state that "Ogryns" cannot be carried.
P3. Nork is an "Ogryn" (C1)
C2. Nork therefore may not be carried on a Valkyrie/Vendetta.


If the Valkyrie/Vendetta rules specified that 'Ogryn Squads' could not be carried then this argument would fail, but as they wrote it in the codex it is logically sound.

Good summary of the argument. I certainly agree.

Yakface is right, as he usually is.

Ok i am going to make one last statement, i didnt realize that people just want to argue and not actually solve anything.

The book states that Valkries cannot carry Ogryns.

When i see the word Ogryns, I then go to the section in the book where Ogryns are the title. This is a very specific place. Nowhere under that do i see Nork. I then continue in the book to find Nork along with the other HQs. This is a very specific place. Two very SPECIFIC and different listings with different rules and such.

Secondly FLUFF DOES NOT DICTATE RULINGS. If it did im sure you could imagine how stupid it would get. But if you honestly want to look at fluff it describes him as an Ogryn who is much much smarter than the others and loyal to the end. The reason they had "its dark in here" and this rule is because they are dumb, he isnt as dumb and if the company commander went in a Valk any rational human would see that he would follow.

ghaz you honestly need to understand basic English concepts before i can engage in some sort of discourse. PROPER NOUNS ARE SPECIFIC. so Ogryn Squad is reffering to something different than Ogryns if capitolized. for instance if i said nobody can have Levi Jeans Store in NY city, that DOES NOT exclude Levis Jeans from being sold.

FlipForFree wrote:I'm not the one who's being stubborn and argumentative, everyone else is.

FlipForFree wrote:Ok i am going to make one last statement, i didnt realize that people just want to argue and not actually solve anything.

The book states that Valkries cannot carry Ogryns.

When i see the word Ogryns, I then go to the section in the book where Ogryns are the title. This is a very specific place. Nowhere under that do i see Nork. I then continue in the book to find Nork along with the other HQs. This is a very specific place. Two very SPECIFIC and different listings with different rules and such.

Secondly FLUFF DOES NOT DICTATE RULINGS. If it did im sure you could imagine how stupid it would get. But if you honestly want to look at fluff it describes him as an Ogryn who is much much smarter than the others and loyal to the end. The reason they had "its dark in here" and this rule is bnecause they are dumb, he isnt as dumb and if the company commander went in a Valk and rational human would see that he would follow.

ghaz you honestly need to understand basic English concepts before i can engage in some sort of discourse. PROPER NOUNS ARE SPECIFIC. so Ogryn Squad is reffering to something different than Ogryns if capitolized. for instance if i said nobody can have Levi Jeans Store in NY city, that DOES NOT exclude Levis Jeans from being sold.

I never said fluff dictated rulings. I said his "fluff" description clearly identifies him as an Ogryn.

My argument is logically sound. And again, Ogryn is capitalized everywhere all the time in the book so the fact that the Valkyrie rule says "Ogryns" with a capital O means ABSOLUTELY NOTHING as it is used again and again that way at all times.

Until you can refute the logic in my argument it stands.

FlipForFree wrote:Secondly FLUFF DOES NOT DICTATE RULINGS.

Ok then, let's go by the rules!


P1. Nork is indentified as an "Ogryn" by his special rule "Bulky" (The rules for 'Bulky' specifically mention Ogryns twice. Either Nork is an Orgryn or the 'Bulky' rule is meaningless on him.)
C1. Nork is therefore an "Ogryn".

P2. The Valkyrie/Vendetta rules state that "Ogryns" cannot be carried.
P3. Nork is an "Ogryn" (C1)
C2. Nork therefore may not be carried on a Valkyrie/Vendetta.

Yes he shares a rule with Ogryns, and HE IS DEFINITELY an ogryn. Those do not make him subject to the rule for valkyries.

This statement is from the tourny director of 4 Gts in the past.

"Fluff in no way shape or form can be used directly or in an attempt to influence a case toward disqualifying or qualifying any said ruling"

FlipForFree wrote:Yes he shares a rule with Ogryns, and HE IS DEFINITELY an ogryn. Those do not make him subject to the rule for valkyries.

This statement is from the tourny director of 4 Gts in the past.

"Fluff in no way shape or form can be used directly or in an attempt to influence a case toward disqualifying or qualifying any said ruling"

Ummm, okay? Why don't you send your argument to this GT tourney director and see what he says?


Besides if you agree that he is an Ogryn then the argument is already over. The idea that there is something called an "ogryn" (with a lower case 'o') is something you are making up.

Except Gwar and Yakface aren't citing fluff as the basis of thier rulings, Yakface is simply suggesting that it supports the stance, they are citing the Bulky rule which says "Each Ogryn counts as two models for the purposes of transport capacity." Note that this is a rule, and NOT fluff.

As mentioned repeatedly, if Nork is not an Ogryn, there's no reason to give him the Bulky rule, because it would have no effect on non Ogryn models.

There are 2 parts to every rule usually, as well ass everything in a codex, 1st part fluff second part ruling.

"Ogryns are colossal thugs with thick set frames and immense guts."

Yes Nork is probably fat as well but this IS NOT A RULE this is fluff.

"Each Ogyrn counts as two models for the purposes of transport capacity"

each "Ogryn" not Ogryns, counts as 2 models, so yes he counts as two models and furthermore qualifyies him as an "Ogryn" not part of Ogryns.

Great googly-moogly son! Of course it does. It's called a plural.

You need to man up and admit you're wrong here. And you most definitely are.

Fenris-77 wrote:Great googly-moogly son! Of course it does. It's called a plural.

You need to man up and admit you're wrong here. And you most definitely are.

QFT.

Probability we will Invent Magic before anyone on Dakka Admits they are wrong = 1

plural is great for common nouns like ogryns however proper nouns arent that easy. I can open a grocery store called Giants but not Giant, for a reason. Proper nouns are specific sorry im right.

FlipForFree wrote:plural is great for common nouns like ogryns however proper nouns arent that easy. I can open a grocery store called Giants but not Giant, for a reason. Proper nouns are specific sorry im right.

Firstly, punctuate your sentences. At least when I am being stubborn I do it properly!
Secondly, Ogryn is not a proper noun, it's just a noun.

* Proper nouns — names of places, people and dates. Always have a capital letter on their first letter.

A proper noun is the name of some particular individual, or people, or group: as, Adam, Boston, the Hudson, the Romans, the Azores, the Alps.

Common nouns arent capitolized unless begining a sentence.

FlipForFree wrote: * Proper nouns — names of places, people and dates. Always have a capital letter on their first letter.

A proper noun is the name of some particular individual, or people, or group: as, Adam, Boston, the Hudson, the Romans, the Azores, the Alps.

Common nouns aren't capitalized unless beginning a sentence.

You honestly think GW follows the rules of English to the letter? Really? You have zero basis for claiming Nork is not an Ogryn, both from a Fluff and a Rules Standpoint.
Give it up already, be gracious in defeat.
All you are doing is embarrassing yourself tbh.

when i see my points refuted i will. Yes i sure as hell hope they follow the rules of the English language.

FlipForFree wrote:When I see my points refuted I will. Yes, I sure as hell hope they follow the rules of the English language.

Well, as much as I hate to be the Bearer of Bad News, your points have been refuted; several times. And GW are notorious for their abuse of the English language, both with grammar and spelling.

FlipForFree wrote:when i see my points refuted i will. Yes i sure as hell hope they follow the rules of the English language.

EVERY INSTANCE OF THE WORD OGRYN IN THE CODEX IS CAPITALIZED SO YOU CANNOT USE THE CAPITLIZATION OF THE WORD TO ASSUME IT IS A PROPER NOUN.

Seriously, this is crazy!

yakface wrote:

FlipForFree wrote:when i see my points refuted i will. Yes i sure as hell hope they follow the rules of the English language.

EVERY INSTANCE OF THE WORD OGRYN IN THE CODEX IS CAPITALIZED SO YOU CANNOT USE THE CAPITLIZATION OF THE WORD TO ASSUME IT IS A PROPER NOUN.

Seriously, this is crazy!

OMG ALL CAPZ! THAT AGAINST T3H ROOLZ!
But yes, it is crazy. -Shrug- I guess I can't be the only Dakkaite to want to make a fool of themselves in YMTC now can I?

My only counter argument is simply one of fluff. I would imagine the reason Ogryns can't be carried in Valkyries (even though there is yet fluff to support that) is due to their paranoia. I would cite "Its Dark in Der" from the previous codex, and I would say that probably holds true for Valkyries, or perhaps Orgyns don't like heights. Nork, well he is special. Not only are his mental capacities higher than your normal Ogryn, but he is also more willing to follow his charge wherever they go. If they were to go into a Valkyrie, regardless of Nork's own personal feelings of Valkyries, Nork would follow. Considering Nork is a very special character, both in the specific and the general, I would want people to leave that open to interpretation, and let the owning player decide.

Concise thread summary:

@ Danny : That's how I'm going to play him. LA LA LA LA LA LA LA!

Although no-one really listens to me I have a right to post so I will.

In my opinion Nork cannot travel in Valkyries because he is a member of the Ogryn abhuman race that has been previously specified in the Codex as not being able to go into Valkyries or Vendettas. The capitalisation suggests Ogryns is a proper noun but one that describes a sub race. I am Human and therefore confide to Human rules - I cannot fly. Therefore Nork, being an Ogryn, means he therefore follows the Ogryn rules and cannot travel in a Valkyrie or Vendetta.

FlipForFree, please just leave it. I also don't know who you are talking to about the use of the English language because frankly, some of your posts have been appalling.

I still support Yakface.

The OC-D

No, theo, you are a human, small "h" because it is being used as an adjective, not a proper noun. GW has a very poor track record of when to capitalize, and when not to, I wouldn't rely on it too much, but it is a good point. However, as Yakface has pointed out, Ogryn seems to always be capitalized, leaving using capital "Ogryn" up in the air, because GW may be using it correctly, or incorrectly, for both sides of the argument.

Just a quick note on the Vendetta.

In the Codex the description of the Vendetta it identifies the Vendetta as a Valkyrie:

Imperial Guard Codex Page 56 wrote:
Vendetta Gunship
The Valkyrie can be outfitted with a wide variety of weapon payloads, one of which is dubbed the Vendetta.

So it would inherit all the rules from the Valkyrie.