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Hollismason wrote: almost all lists revolve around expensive real world monies.

So do you agree or disagree with the statement proposed he who has the most $$ wins.

Yup. You should expect to pay $300+ for an army. That's your entry fee. 40k ain't cheap, and nobody ever said it was. And your examples can be brought down in cost via Internet discounter. But 40k costs top out around $500 per army, due to the points cap. And even then, a good budget army will do just fine.

Sure, he who has the most money wins, if only because they can stay atop the metagame by continuing to buy. But why do you need to have a top-tier army? Can't you have fun playing a smaller (i.e 1500-pt), more casual game with your friends?

40k ain't Magic, where you should expect to spend thousands as the entry fee to be able to play Type 1.

Actually, I think I may change my vote a little.

The more money does tend to win, in a few specific circumstances. When you're at a GT, and you're going for the appearance points...

My Emperor's Children force that took 2nd for appearance in Chicago was full of conversions. Every marine had a sculpted shoulder pad that, at the time, was a $1.50 bit. My land raiders and dreadnought were forge world pieces.

Will, who took 1st (appearance) used nothing but Forge World crisis suits, and used involved bits throughout his army. Brian Carlson (3rd appearance, player's choice) spent a good bit of $$ on his display, and his conversions.

At your local RTTs, this probably doesn't matter much. But, at the upper tiers, if you're going for appearance awards and player's choice votes, the more conversions, the better you can do, and good conversions aren't cheap.

I think more money equals more wins to a degree that you are able to field more versatile lists the more you have the more options you have.

I would say its definitely true when you come up against a antithesis of your army.

Another good example is the Griffon which they dont even make unfortunately but is easily created.


I would say at minimum to be competive is to spend around 600 dollars on Gamesworkshop products.

I definitely agree that more money will buy you more appearance points because of forge world and aftermarket bits.

List wise though, it's pretty even.

Hollismason wrote:
I would say at minimum to be competive is to spend around 600 dollars on Gamesworkshop products.

Uh, I just showed, a handful of posts ago, that you can build a perfectly competitive list for $450, before any after-market discounts. At least two competitive builds can be made at that price point. The buy-in cost for competitive play is not cheap, but you're adding 33% to what's really necessary.

And, at $450, that means with a 25% discount, you're looking at $337. Add a can of primer, and a handful of paints (two metals, three foundation, three washes, seven colours and black&white), some basing flock, and a brush - I'd say that the budget conscious buyer can build and paint a competitive 1750 army from scratch for under $400.

JohnHwangDD wrote:40k ain't Magic, where you should expect to spend thousands as the entry fee to be able to play Type 1.

I think that is a bit excessive even for Magic. A deck + Sideboard is 75 cards which will cost from 25c to $20 each or about $250 to $350 for a decent deck.
The downside is you will be lucky if it remains competative for more than about a year and due to rotation it will not be tournament legal after two years.

While a decent 40k army may cost around $500 you can still keep using the figures year after year (even if a new Codex makes them less competative)

Hollismason wrote:I'll issue a challenge go ahead and try and make a competitive 300 dollar army. That's it 300 dollars bought with products.

It is not quite Nidzilla, but you can build a reasonable Tyranid list using GW Prices
Two Battleforces - $180
Hive Tyrant - $45
3 Zoanthropes - $60

If you get the full 25% discount that many shops offer you can add a third Battleforce.

For Magic, I only considered "Eternal" formats like Type 1 and Type 1.5, in which cards do not "expire". That is part of the reason that these cards and decks are so expensive. But once you've paid in, you're done.

If you're staying in Block, or even Extended, then you've got a lot more churn to deal with as things rotate in and out.

Not to get off topic on the discussion of magic but I actually really like the idea of a tournament format that allows for a swing of 500 points similar to a "side deck".


Anyway back to topic; Let's look at the boost Mechanized VS. Infantry faces ; its a very marked increased cost from Mechanized Orks to Foot SLogging orks. Or Footslogging eldar to Mechanized Eldar.


Not to get into a discussion of tactics and albeit somewhat discussion of vehicles.

One of the best vehicles in the game now the Vendetta or Valkyrie model is a cool 50 bucks.


Also, I agree going elsewhere you can more than afford to purchase more products from GW using online discounts.


So what are your opinions to a degree of what finances plays into our hobby. Can the stalkwart broke college student easily get into the game competitively for 300 dollars with a 30 percent discount lets say.


Also, consider that is one specific army and despite what people say I dont think most people find playing the same thing over and over again enjoyable.

Maybe some do but I dont at least.

"Competitive" and "Budget" simply don't go together.

If you're a budget player, then play on a budget and build your army over time.

Or build more from the boxed sets like AoBR or BfSP.

JohnHwangDD wrote:For Magic, I only considered "Eternal" formats like Type 1 and Type 1.5, in which cards do not "expire". That is part of the reason that these cards and decks are so expensive. But once you've paid in, you're done.

I only play Legacy (T1.5) decks but there are not a lot of Tournaments for it around. Most Magic events are focused on Standard Format. I really do not think trying to compare Power Nine MTG cards to 40k is reasonable. Those cards have silly prices because they are scarce, 40k figures are not.

Hollismason wrote:Not to get off topic on the discussion of magic but I actually really like the idea of a tournament format that allows for a swing of 500 points similar to a "side deck".
So what are your opinions to a degree of what finances plays into our hobby. Can the stalkwart broke college student easily get into the game competitively for 300 dollars with a 30 percent discount lets say. Also, consider that is one specific army and despite what people say I dont think most people find playing the same thing over and over again enjoyable.
Maybe some do but I dont at least.

If you are going to play regularly most people will want some units that they can change between, or a second army. However I know a lot of players that only own one army. Some people are happy playing the same thing again and again. 40k is not a game I would recommend to a broke college student, I would get them to play Blood Bowl instead. It is a much better game.

More money = More Units = Less predictable Army each time you play. If all you own is Tournament Winning Army XYZ, they opponents will tailor there list to beat that. Variety in both lists and opponents helps to make the game more fun.

500$ is a lot of cash up front, but if spread out over time it can be minimal. Video games are loaded too. An Xbox plus multiple controllers, batteries and chargers will run 500$ plus games.

Even sports equipment is expensive, and it wears out.

In an opposite contest, if you had an unlimited budget, what would you build for an army? Yeah, all Krieg IG would be cool, but not much more competitive then the 500$ lists. You can replace GW demons with FW ones, but you still have the same list.

Only in Apoc and painting does money help. Apoc because those 1000$ titans are super powerful, and painting because clearly conversions look better. No one would pay extra to make a model look uglier. Any contest that gives points for appearance will benefit those who have the time and cash to pay for better stuff.

I agree with Redbeard, in order to have a higher placing army at GTs, you definitely need to spend some major $$. At Adepticon, it is a good idea to put in some serious effort into your army to get a better than middle appearance scores and that includes work on the display board.

Orks are actually one of the cheaper armies to put together if you're good at converting. Buy a few sets of AoBR boyz and some plasticard and you're golden. I've built everything from mega nobz, a mega armor boss, kommandoz, lootaz and bikes from several sets of the AoBR boyz. I even converted a lot of the slugga boyz to shoota boyz. Vehicles are pretty easy to cobble together with some plasticard or cardboard. It's really not that expensive of a hobby once you learn how to get creative. That includes finding creative ways to acquire miniatures for cheap. I rarely buy anything new. I just watch ebay like a hawk, pay attention to the trade forums and keep enough cash on me so that when someone walks into gaming night trying to sell their army I can make an offer and usually get it.

Hollismason wrote:
Anyway back to topic; Let's look at the boost Mechanized VS. Infantry faces ; its a very marked increased cost from Mechanized Orks to Foot SLogging orks. Or Footslogging eldar to Mechanized Eldar.

But is it a price increase? I supose it has to be, as some of the tanks involved are really bad point-per-dollar. Battlewagons are a really bad case, at as low as 2.3 ppd, and trukks are even worse at only 1.1 ppd. Eldar vehicles aren't as bad, because the point-cost of the vehicles is still high. Fire prisms are 3.2 ppd (with stones and holofields), and serpents are 3.12.

There is certainly a wide disparity across the board on what units are cost-effective, and which aren't. Look at things like wraithguard (2.3ppd), ogryns (2 ppd) or mega-nobs (2.66ppd) - all units where you get a single metal model in a blister - but it can get even worse. The old metal grots used to run around the .8ppd range.

But, you don't need those units to make a decent army. And, if you plan wisely, any army can afford some of them. To hit the $450 (before discounts) mark, you have to average 3.9ppd, so if you get some efficient units (say, dire avengers, at 5ppd) you can easily run your mechanized list within the budget. I don't know that orks have equivalently efficient units - although they have the black-reach advantage, so it might even be possible to compensate for the trukks simply by doing black reach swaps to fill out your boyz and nobs contingents.

So what are your opinions to a degree of what finances plays into our hobby. Can the stalkwart broke college student easily get into the game competitively for 300 dollars with a 30 percent discount lets say.

I swear you're not reading the other posts. Short answer: no. You need $400, including your online discount, in order to buy the models for the one the less-expensive competitive armies, and basic tools and paints. If you can borrow your tools, and paint at GW, you're looking at roughly $337.

But, the thing is, that's going to be the cost for -most- armies. That's going to be the cost for a fluffy army too. It's not about buying into the competitive scene, it's about buying into the game at all.

Also, consider that is one specific army and despite what people say I dont think most people find playing the same thing over and over again enjoyable.

I don't really, either - but that's not the issue. A broke college student is going to have to make decisions somewhere. They can play the game for $350. If they can paint decently, odds are that they can recoup their costs, or trade into another army if/when they get bored with it. Once you already account for the 30% discount, minis hodl their price for resale pretty well, assuming you don't paint like gak.

And, heck, if you're a broke college student, you can do the "I have gobs of free time, I'll paint your unit for you for a few bucks" to get the cash to buy your army. I know more than one person (including one of my brothers) who did just this...

If only the Tyranid Assault Broood was still out. It mightn't have been the most competative, but it as a hell of a deal (8.3 PPD, 11.1 with 25% discount).

Since we're discussing monies; what do you people think are the most expensive to play?

Anything where you need a large number of metal and/or resin models. I'd say, all infantry vostroyans or death korp are in the upper echelons.

Sisters of Battle are really bad as well, being all metal.

Space Marine and Ork armies can be both be built pretty cheap. I believe Orks did well at Adepticon not just because of Nob Bikers but also because of Boyz. Baneblades are cheap to buy, points wise, especially if you get them from a discount retailer. Tyranid Battle Forces are competive if you like Warriors. I do not know if the same could be said for Guard, for example, which are possibly one of the more expensive armies.

Yup.

In descending order, I'd guess:
- All-resin Guard (Krieg / Renegades)
- Resin-bitz Red Scorpions
- All-metal Guard (Tallarn / Mordian / Praetorian / ASL / Tanith / Vostroyan)
- Full-Bitz Black Templars
- NEW plastic Guard (Cadians / Catachans)
- All-metal Sisters
...
- AoBR Marines

My first time posting here...and I am a noob. However I can never pass up a budget gaming challenge. So here is my (probably fail) attempt at an affordable competitive 1750 Tau list.

What you need:
2 Battleforce sets - $180
2 XV8 "Crisis" suits - $40
2x Skyray (for hammerheads) - $80
Total- $300

HQ
Shas'el
-PR, MP, MT, HWDC +1 MD - 117pts

Elites
2x XV8 Crisis
-2xTLMP, 2x DC w/ 2x MD and 2xshield drones, 2x Shas'vre upgrade
-186 pts

2x XV8
-TLFlamers, 2x DC w/ 2x SD + 2x GD, Shas'vre upgrade
-162 pts

6 man Stealth Squad
-2 FB, Shas'vre, 4x DC 3GD +2 MD, TA, TL
-309pts

Troops

2x 12 man FW squads
-Shas'ui upgrade, BK, DC -2 gundrones (1 for each squad)
-290 pts

2x Devilfish w/ DP - 180pts

2x 12 man kroot squad
168 pts

Heavy Support
2x Railhead
-RG, DP, MT
330 pts

Total - 1742

Considering the 15% i get off at my F(semi)LGS total cost would be - $255, enough to get another Skyray box or some path finders so you could move out all those MD.

Here's a budget challenge:

1500 points of PURE Grey Knights, competitive, for under a squillion dollars...

Sry don't have that Codex

Mattlov wrote:Here's a budget challenge:

1500 points of PURE Grey Knights, competitive, for under a squillion dollars...

That isnt much of a challenge.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/Deadshane1%27s_Grey_Knights_%2709

...1850pts and can be bought for as low as $350 if you factor in a 20% discount which isnt hard to find with a good game store or buying thru the war store. It's about as competetive as Grey Knights get.

Won 3 games at the adepticon championship...and the army was bought almost entirely thru store credit from gaming tournements, and a really nice trade of a large bunch of eldar bits that I wasnt using for most of the metal figures (all the termies and 10 PAGK's)

I used forgeworld doors so the price went up a bit, but actual "models"...I probably spent less than 200 dollars. Thats including the 3 LR's.

You can build an army for "on the cheap" you just have to keep your eyes open.

Want a nice IG army with lots of Valkries? Wait until the next codex comes out...people will be unloading their IG like crazy to jump on the latest bandwagon....it always happens.

with the recent economic recession I no longer know how many Dollars equal a Pound. But from the two armies I have built this year One cost:
234 Pounds 354 Dollars
that was a drop pod Imperial Fist Army.

the second Cost
202 pounds. thats 306 Dollars
That was a dual Fire Prism Mech Eldar Army.

hang on broke out the internet and googled the exchange rate. Adding the Dollar Cost on now.

Now maybe because im British we get stuff slightly cheaper than Americans, possibly exporting GW stuff to america ups the cost or the prices are still set at pre recession dollar rates. But both Armies were 1500 points and less than 400 Dollars. Thats pretty cheap.
All parts were bought in store, not online.

1500pt pure GK for $295 (retail, not including paint)

HQ (box set + 2 psycannons)
GLGM w/ Psycannon
4x GKT (1 w/ Psycannon)

Troop (x2, standard box set)
Justicar
4x PAGK (1 w/ Incinerator)

Heavy (standard box sets)
1x GK LR Crusader
2x GK Land Raiders

SJ

I would strongly disagree with the idea that money buys competitiveness.

A 1750-2000 points costs around $500-600. That's just how it is although there are lots of ways to reduce that cost. It makes very little difference what sort of build you go for, the cost tends to work out very similar.

Your initial example of the valks is very flawed. Vehicle heavy armies tend to work out quite cheap. I'm building an all-valk IG list at the moment. 1500 points would cost less than $400 at retail and could be bought for about $300 at discount. I'm spending a lot more than that but the extra is all forgeworld gubbins to make them look pretty.

This all is assuming you are paying retail prices for the armies. When I build a new army from scratch I'm on ebay or calling up the warstore

Quoted for truth as the kiddies say.....

Paying full retail for GW product is indeed for suckers.
Ebay is an absolute gold mine for used GW products, and if you are willing not to use the latest shiny toys older models can take a big bite out of the cost. While RT models are getting expensive now the 2nd and 3rd edition models can still be found for a fraction of the cost of current stuff in many cases. One of the biggest ways to save moeny is to purposely look for poorly painted stuff. Cans of arosol paint stripper (for metals) and tubs of Simple Green (for plastics) are inexpensive and quite easy to use and can salvage any abortion of a paint job.

Even the shiny new models can be had if you are willing not to jump on the band wagon and wait a bit. Like Valks? Wait six months and all the kiddies will be unloading theirs and you will be able to get them assembled and poorly painted on Ebay for 30$ or less.

I really do need to type up "Trenchie's guide to 40k on the cheep" some day....

TR

Everyone's totaling up army lists like they buy them all in one go. Is this true? Have we lost the art of patient building? Working our way, with a plan, from 500 points upwards?

When you buy these things one to three at a time (excluding vehicles and carnifex/tyrants) it's not so bad. Paintball was a $40-$80 venture each DAY you wanted to go out and play. The old 'clix games would run you about $10 a booster pack or something like that, so that got pretty expensive REALLY fast (and for terrible minis, in hindsight).

The only times when the game HAS to be expensive are when you will not put up for making a scratch built apoc model, in which case you get to shell out $100+ to GW or FW.

I know that some lists are inherently expensive (land raider spam, monolith spam, valk spam, nob bikers spam) but for those people out there with rather balanced lists, I don't think that cost is nearly as big of an issue.

While you need some cash to build a competitve army, you can easily spend around the same amount (or even more) to field a bad army. GW games aren't a cheap hobby to enter.