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Corpsman_of_Krieg wrote:@Alerian
Let me clarify. My previous comment was specifically with regard to Nob Bikers only.

First, that is not what you said...you refered to "all" of the units that Whitedragon mentioned.

Corpsman_of_Krieg wrote: First, unless the Eldar Codex says something to change this, Perils of the Warp occurs only when you roll double 1s or double 6s, making 3D6 only useful for stopping powers from being used, in which case the rest of the army shoots the unit(s) that are preventing you from using the 110 point units of PBS. Either way, no significant loss to the Guard when fighting Eldar (who pay about 2-3 times as much for their Serpents/Falcons + upgrades and goodies as Guard do for their Chimeras), as the horde of Chimeras and abundance of mid-strength firepower plays well without the PBS units.

The Eldar dex most certainly states that you take perils on any roles of 12 or greater in the rules for RoW. Please, make sure you know your facts before disagreeing. Also, don't get too excited about how easy Eldar are to beat with Chimera spam, as the Eldar can spam mobile S6/S8 weapons like no one's business. So, if you are going to play the light armor/mid-strenght weapons game, you might want to pick on an army that doesn't do it better than IG. I don't see Chimera spam even standing a chance to Mechdar, do to the Eldar's Energy fields/holofields, higher mobility, greater speed, and better vehicle armament. Sure, guard has lots of nasty things to kill the Eldar all day long, but Chimera spam and PBS are some of their worst options when fighting space elves.

Corpsman_of_Krieg wrote: You're not thinking synergistically, Alerian. No single piece of the Guard Codex made of win on its own, but when you combine the parts (PBS + Chimera Spam + Devildogs/Vendettas) you have a truly nasty force that can deal with all of the threats you mentioned.

LOL, I am an Eldar tourney player, the only way I can think is "synergistically". I admit that the combo you listed is effective against certain builds; however, it is far from unbeatable, and some of its counters have already been pointed out you. I also feel that you also need to have a better understanding of the metagame. As more and more armies go mech (thanks to things like Lash and PBS), spamming light vehicles will become more and more useless, as everyone is already starting to load up on anti-tank.

Edit: ...and no, your combo does not make a "truly nasty force that can deal with all of the threats I mentioned"...as I have already pointed out how certain units/combos will destroy such a list.

@Sliggoth:
Extrenm(54) already addressed the fact that 110 of those 330 points is actually still quite effective.

Traffic jams will not be a problem if the Chimera list is supported correctly. Taking a pair of CCS units in Chimeras with Astropath and Officer of the Fleet in each means that if the Guard player loses first turn, they can simply start off the board and bring in everything on a 2+ turn 2. While packing in 12 tanks to less than a quarter of the table can be problematic, if you're only doing it when you claim first turn then you have the freedom to space out a bit before potentially losing casualties.

I probably should have been more articulate in my explanation of what I think is powerful. Pure Chimera spam is IMHO not a very competitive force, as it lacks the high-strength and low-AP weapons necessary to kill tanks (CCS and PCS units are not tank hunters with any amount of longevity once in the open).

Chimera units should be the meat and potatoes of the list, for sure, but when you couple them with Devildogs, Russes, Demolishers, Medusas, Hydras, etc., you end up fielding an armored list that plays well off each unit's strengths while bolstering weaknesses.

@whitedragon:
I addressed what I feel is a good combination of Chimeras and other vehicles in my comments to Sliggoth.

I'd like to see a unit consistently Melta 5-6 Chimeras to death in a game. That would have to be one hell of an expensive unit, or the Guard player would have to be ignoring it.

20 Thundershield Termies + Shrike is just shy of 1000 points. The Marine player is not going to have a whole ton of space for much else at your standard 1850, which means that when those units deepstrike in (in nice blast shaped circles) they are in for enough shots from all of that armor that you're going to lose the bulk of one squad in a single turn of shooting. More if the Guard player has Mystics (a likely, and useful selection for Mech Guard). 30+Multilaser shots, 6 Heavy Flamer Templates, 8+ Meltaguns, and Meltacannons/Battlecannons/Medusa Cannons will make even the 3++ useless from such a weight of fire.

You seem to have misread. I said Space Marine Krak Grenades, not Tac Marines. I'm pretty sure that statement covers everything that is a Space Marine with a Krak Grenade, not just the ridiculously misconstrued view of a Tac Marine. Dark Angels Librarians are a weak HQ choice in a weak Codex. I don't see Dark Angels super Psychic Hoods being all that threatening.

Oh, and I didn't forget about the fact that Cult troops are Fearless. Do you even know what the Psyker Battle Squad's powers are? Fearless units get hit by SOULSTORM (which is not the same as Weaken Resolve), which I stated in my previous post.

I don't know where you get to thinking that a single Tactical Squad will reliably kill 2-3 Chimeras per game. 9 Multilaser shots, 3 Heavy Flamer template, and the contents of the three Chimeras might not seem like much, but they will win out in a shooting match with a Tactical Squad.

Vindicators will not be a significant risk, due to the fact that in order to shoot their Demolisher Cannon, they put themselves in striking distance of quad-melta CCS units in Chimeras and Devildogs (Vendettas would solve this problem before it arose), both of which can reliably bring it down or at the very least keep it from shooting (unless it's a Templar Vindicator, since they can still take Power of the Machine Spirit).

As mentioned before, pure Chimera spam is relatively resilient, but in turn does not kill much. If you use the Chimeras as the core, and build upon them with all the aforementioned aspects available, the synergy the list will establish makes Mech Guard quite the contender.

@Extrenm(54):
I would venture to say that the best counter to Mech Guard would be another Mech list or a Fearless SAFH that spams anti-tank weapons. It would be interesting to see a Mechanized Noise Marine SAFH bring all those Blastmasters to bear in a shootour, backed up by Land Raiders and/or Obliterators.

CK


Automatically Appended Next Post:

First, that is not what you said...you refered to "all" of the units that Whitedragon mentioned.

Apparently the idea of a statement that means something it was not intended to is not connecting for you. I referred to "all," but meant "Nob Bikers." It was a miscommunication on my part that I tried to correct, but apparently didn't, since you brought it up again.

The Eldar dex most certainly states that you take perils on any roles of 12 or greater in the rules for RoW. Please, make sure you know your facts before disagreeing.

This changes the PBS role from continually trying (and most likely failing) to pass Psychic Tests to simply not trying at all. Excuse me for not owning every Codex and knowing them all inside out.

Also, don't get too excited about how easy Eldar are to beat with Chimera spam, as the Eldar can spam mobile S6/S8 weapons like no one's business. So, if you are going to play the light armor/mid-strenght weapons game, you might want to pick on an army that doesn't do it better than IG.

I'm well aware that Mechdar spam Str6 and Str8 weapons. I wouldn't be so certain that they can do it better than the Guard though, since Eldar armor is inherently more expensive and relies on positioning much more than Chimeras. It's the "Quality vs Quantity" debate.

Chimera spam (once again) is, in my mind, not pure Chimeras. I see them as a core that you add anti-tank and antipersonnel strengths to. PBS units may be ineffective against Eldar, but they are nasty against most other armies, Fearless or otherwise.

Though I said it was nasty, I never said it was unbeatable. I feel that you need better understand that your metagame is going to be different from my metagame. We don't go up against the same kinds of opponents, and therefore have different understandings of what is strong in our area and what is not.

Loading up on light armor will be effective regardless of whether or not your opponent has responded to the overall change -- it will be varying degrees of effectiveness, but effective nonetheless. Lists won't shift 180 degrees, since there are still footslogging armies that must be contended with, so a balance will eventually me met.

CK

I would imagine either hoard orcs (5+ cover save for all) or razorback spam would own this list. They both have more than enough tank killing potential and both are fairly competitive in the meta environment.

I would imagine either hoard orcs (5+ cover save for all) or razorback spam would own this list. They both have more than enough tank killing potential and both are fairly competitive in the meta environment

I am not sure about razorback spam, but I am pretty sure that horde orks would struggle against that List CK has been describing. I am not saying they could not beat it, but it would be a tough match up.

Ahhh, but the chimeras dont really see over the wrecks or the immoblised tanks very well at all. A swarm of chimeras arent going to be worth much stuck behind a mass of wrecked/ immoblised/ stunned tanks, its only the few heavies in the list that can still operate at all well at long range. In the lists mentioned it seems that about half the chimera's weapons are changed to flamers to deal with cc problems...not going to do much in a traffic jam. And a chimera with a load of worthless PBS certainly shouldnt be given room over a chimera with a load of useful troops. So yes the PBS chimeras really are a 330 point write off, at least for much of anything except doing a long flank run away from anyplace a useful unit would want to go.

Its the cumbersome mass of the tanks that helps make some of the component bits useless. There is only going to be room for so many vehicles on the table, in the areas that are important.

If the table is large and empty of terrain then extra chimeras are going to be able to get into the fight in a timely manner. Just dont count on that happening often.


Sliggoth

Put two Chimeras on a table, with one behind the other. When the Chimeras are staggered, they can both see forward quite easily. Do this with multiple chimeras to understand what the two-ranked gunline will look like.

Sliggoth, the Chimeras are not impotent, which means that the two 110-point Psyker Battle Squads are the write-off (I'd hardly call them worthless), not the 110 points of Chimeras. In the rare situations where PBS units are worse than a Guard Infantry Squad, I still don't think it merits dropping them out for regular Guardsmen. PBS units are the most potent single infantry squad in the Guard army when it comes to shooting.

As for this traffic jam you keep talking about, I don't see the problem. Two CCS (mandatory choices for Mechanized Guard IMO) with two Astropaths means you can leave any jammed up models off the table and drive them onto your long table edge with a 2+ on turn 2. This can open up an entire flank to combat where the enemy would otherwise only need to worry about a blob of tanks in a corner.

CK

Corpsman_of_Krieg wrote:@I'd like to see a unit consistently Melta 5-6 Chimeras to death in a game. That would have to be one hell of an expensive unit, or the Guard player would have to be ignoring it.

20 Thundershield Termies + Shrike is just shy of 1000 points. The Marine player is not going to have a whole ton of space for much else at your standard 1850, which means that when those units deepstrike in (in nice blast shaped circles) they are in for enough shots from all of that armor that you're going to lose the bulk of one squad in a single turn of shooting. More if the Guard player has Mystics (a likely, and useful selection for Mech Guard). 30+Multilaser shots, 6 Heavy Flamer Templates, 8+ Meltaguns, and Meltacannons/Battlecannons/Medusa Cannons will make even the 3++ useless from such a weight of fire.

Your failure to grasp basic concepts of Warhammer 40,000 5th edition make it hard to constantly refute you. First, a biker nob squad will easily be able to multi-charge and destroy 5-6 chimeras per turn. A unit of fire dragons charging could reliably take 2-3 or more depending on if the unit is large and if your chimeras didn't move. Marines with Krak grenades could do similar. Berzerkers multi-charging could do a number with S5 for furious charge and the champs S9 powerfist. Eldar Seer Councils will easily take on just as many, if not more with their witchblades. Then you have alot of pinned troops, and shooting through cover and wreckage, that will be marginally effective depending on what you're shooting at, because you either don't cause enough damage to matter (Seer Council, Nob Bikers, Blood Crushers) or you wipe the unit out so hard and they trade KP's in their favor. (Fire Dragons, Marines)

Now on to your second point. No one running shrike with 20 termies is going to deepstrike them, EVER, so everything you said is moot. Shrike gives them fleet, and one squad will infiltrate. So if they take the first turn, you could get charged with 10 termies at least. With their big bases and thunderhammers, they are going to put a helluva multi-charge wallop on your mechanized units, and anything they hit will be shaken at best.

So please, come back with some real rebuttals when you know what you are talking about.

Your failure to grasp basic concepts of Warhammer 40,000 5th edition make it hard to constantly refute you. First, a biker nob squad will easily be able to multi-charge and destroy 5-6 chimeras per turn.

Real rebuttals? Try making some fething sense first. A Chimera is 4 inches wide. 7-11 of them (which is your original estimate before the application of your revisionist thinking) lined up side by side is, 28-44 inches across! Do you know how limited the situations are where you'll be able to perfectly charge across the table like that?

A unit of fire dragons charging could reliably take 2-3 or more depending on if the unit is large and if your chimeras didn't move.

When would the Chimeras not move if a Tank-Hunting unit was poised to assault them? They're not going to be hopping out of a Serpent/Falcon and assaulting in the same turn, which means they're going to have limited assault options if they want to actually survive long enough to kill something.

Same with Marines and Berzerkers, who will not be assaulting rapidly unless they come flying out of a Land Raider. Both vaporize from the combined fire of a Mech Guard list.

In fact, your whole concept of Multi-charging fails if the Company Command Squads are taking Astropaths, as the Guard player can start off the table and move as he likes.

Now on to your second point. No one running shrike with 20 termies is going to deepstrike them, EVER, so everything you said is moot. Shrike gives them fleet, and one squad will infiltrate. So if they take the first turn, you could get charged with 10 termies at least. With their big bases and thunderhammers, they are going to put a helluva multi-charge wallop on your mechanized units, and anything they hit will be shaken at best.

You know what? Yes, the TH/SS Termies with Shrike won't Deep Strike. I was mistaken. It does not change the fact that they will not get the multicharge you speak of, since the Guard player's tactics would change.

If this situation happens, the Guard player starts off the board. Melta-packing units move on, torch and melta the Terminators nearest to their table edge, followed by long-range fire from everything else.

In any case, I'm getting tired of repeating the same statements that you have chosen to ignore. It is clear that we are not on the same wavelength regarding our views of certain units and army builds. I'm not changing your viewpoints, and you sure as hell aren't changing mine. I'm happy to just leave it at that.

CK

Part of the problem may be that the chimeras cant have both types of weapons loads. Either they are going to have the ability to deal a lot of short range flamer/ melta death or they are going to be able to deal a lot of long range fire power. It certainly is possible to give them a mix of weapons types ... but then they also certainly arent going to be good at both.

The side armor 10 is going to be a huge problem against many shooty armies, smoke will help there but only for one turn, and not at all if you go second.

The armor 10 is also a problem against cc armies, altho I do think it would be hard to assault too many chimera with one unit if the chimeras are placed well. Even against say....hmm, 3 chimeras; dont count on getting good firing arcs next shooting phase. All the occupants of destroyed chimeras are going to be on the field now, as well as some wrecks. Its going to be a real mess, with movement contricted a great deal.


Im not saying the idea is hopeless, far from it. But it is also by no means going to be an easy win.



Sliggoth

In my expirience its not that hard to feed a Chimera to Nob bikers. After they pop it I block them off with the unit inside so they need to charge them, or drive the long way around.
I have seen alot of illegal multi assaulting with bike units. You realy need to follow the assault sequence for them. If the opponent is doing it exactly by RAW the multi charges aren't that scary anymore.

Sliggoth wrote:Part of the problem may be that the chimeras cant have both types of weapons loads. Either they are going to have the ability to deal a lot of short range flamer/ melta death or they are going to be able to deal a lot of long range fire power. It certainly is possible to give them a mix of weapons types ... but then they also certainly arent going to be good at both.

I think turret Multilaser & hull Flamer gives the Chimera the best options. You have the Multi to hit Rhinos at a distance, and the flamer to hit infantry up close.

I still have a soft spot for ML/HB/HS, still use them for units like PBS that are staying back, but ML/HF is awesome stuff.

So I ran 2000 points with 4 Eradicators, 2 Hellhounds, 4 Vets in Chims, 1 CCS chim and 2 Psy Chims. Dawn of War, Command and Conquer. I was tuned to kill Orks and he was tuned to kill tanks, though I'm not sure his was a perfect build.

That is 9 AV12s and 4 AV14s. My main problem was that when the game started, I rolled on in a line roughly four and a half feet wide but had major problems with terrain on turn 2. I was actually lucky about some of the damage results because I didn't have room to disembark thanks to the length of the Chims.

He was able to stun me quite a bit and get commandos, that Vulcha Guy and some trukk borne tank bustas into my lines. The star of the game for me was the Hellhounds, who kept reaching over stunned vehicles to kill the squads that were harassing them.

In the end I won, but just barely. I managed to break the Boyz holding his objective using the Nova Cannons and the Psykers to make them run away. The battle for my objective was attrition that I finally won because I got vehicles in to block Thracka's Battlewagon. The main problem was I kept getting funneled between buildings and when the lead element was stunned, I was delayed a turn. If the damage rolls had been Immobilized, I might not have won.

If it had been Killpoints, I would have slaughtered him, but I'm thinking in big games I might need Valks just to get out of my own way.

Chimera Spam is really good in objective missions but not so good in kill points. I had a rematch against the same player with kill points and won.

Chimera spam is a really tough nut to crack in objective missions with an all comers IG list. They just have 2 many Chimeras and sometimes you wreck one and they hide behind it on an objective which makes it difficult to dislodge the unit as it is difficult to get a shot at them. I can fly behind them with my Valkyries and drop my Vets to kill them but then they get shot up.

Chimera spam is not without its short comings but I expect to see the list around.

All Chimeras probably is not the best way to go but gives you a ton of scoring units which wins you objective missions.

Just running Mostly Chimeras with like 3 Valkyries seems pretty mean too. Although Leman Russ Executioners are just great. Expensive but really good at killing Marines or any infantry for that matter.