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Gwar! wrote:Lol, yes you can move the models. Where in the rules say you get to touch them? Nowhere. If your opponent does not want you touching his property, you have to live with telling your opponent where to move them, or touch them anyway and have the cops called on you for attempted theft and being detained via Citizens Arrest (Happened once in my store, it was hilarious to see a 15 year old douche burst into tears because he was going into the paddywagon for "trying to steal my models")

In what jurisdictions is touching something attempted theft? At best it's trespass on chattels, which is a civil offense.

Hey GW says those minis are an extension of me, so thats assault, the threat of Harmful or Offensive touching

"Honest gov'ner, he put it in his pocket and was making for the door I wear I saw it wiv me own two eyes gov'ner!"

Frazzled wrote:Hey GW says those minis are an extension of me, so thats assault, the threat of Harmful or Offensive touching

That's still civil though with at best nominal damages.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gwar! wrote:"Honest gov'ner, he put it in his pocket and was making for the door I wear I saw it wiv me own two eyes gov'ner!"

So, your answer is "wait, I actually don't know what I'm talking about"?

Frazzled wrote:Hey GW says those minis are an extension of me, so the promise of Harmful or Offensive touching

Fixed your typo, Frazzled.

Er, assault is a criminal offense Poly baby. "Stay away from my safe space!"

ready for the bar? what 4 weeks and counting at this point?

You wish Malf, although that explains the "Touch my minis like you mean it!" T shirt...

Frazzled, just doing his part to insure the devolution of both society and Dakka internet threads.

Frazzled wrote:Er, assault is a criminal offense Poly baby. "Stay away from my safe space!"

ready for the bar? what 4 weeks and counting at this point?

You wish Malf, although that explains the "Touch my minis like you mean it!" T shirt...

Frazzled, just doing his part to insure the devolution of both society and Dakka internet threads.

Well under common law, sure. But in ohio the crime of assault is closer to battery. Common law assault is actually Aggravated Menacing. Damn Ohio distinctions!

Ah, state differences-gotcha. Here thats assault (on a person). Now if wecould get minis classed as cattle or related to the care and feeding of cattle, messing with them would be hanging offense

Frazzled wrote:Ah, state differences-gotcha. Here thats assault (on a person). Now if wecould get minis classed as cattle or related to the care and feeding of cattle, messing with them would be hanging offense

Lol, well, rustling still had the mens rea of actually wanting to take it, but I see your point.

It never hurts to have the manners to ask before touching, especially if it's a really delicate conversion or a great paint job that you feel unworthy to grope with your heathen digits.

Gwar! wrote:it was hilarious to see a 15 year old douche burst into tears because he was going into the paddywagon for "trying to steal my models")

please tell me it wasnt you who told him that

dirkthe1 wrote:

Gwar! wrote:it was hilarious to see a 15 year old douche burst into tears because he was going into the paddywagon for "trying to steal my models")

please tell me it wasnt you who told him that

<Shaggy> It wasn't me</Shaggy>

Gwar! wrote:Lol, yes you can move the models. Where in the rules say you get to touch them? Nowhere. If your opponent does not want you touching his property, you have to live with telling your opponent where to move them, or touch them anyway and have the cops called on you for attempted theft and being detained via Citizens Arrest (Happened once in my store, it was hilarious to see a 15 year old douche burst into tears because he was going into the paddywagon for "trying to steal my models")

Yeah right, like that would stick. Altho if someone manhandles you and calls it citizens arrest for touching something not yours like that you could slap them with a pretty nice lawsuit, esp if they actually hurt something on you. (anyway, this sounds as bogus as it gets)

No, I can citizens arrest them and then decide not to press charges. How do you explain taking into your hands property that is not your without permission from the property owner?

That sounds a lot like theft to me.

Also, Manhandling isn't exactly what I would call locking the door while we wait for the police to arrive.

Gwar! wrote:No, I can citizens arrest them and then decide not to press charges. How do you explain taking into your hands property that is not your without permission from the property owner?

That sounds a lot like theft to me.

Also, Manhandling isn't exactly what I would call locking the door while we wait for the police to arrive.

i thought it cant be theft if there is the openly intent to return, and i would imagine that not being on your own property would make it a somewhat interesting conversation-as will getting done for wasting police time.

and if you actually did ring the police for it then that would be why my works truck got done over and the police were too busy to get to it. that would make you a very sad individual indeed!

dirkthe1 wrote:

Gwar! wrote:No, I can citizens arrest them and then decide not to press charges. How do you explain taking into your hands property that is not your without permission from the property owner?

That sounds a lot like theft to me.

Also, Manhandling isn't exactly what I would call locking the door while we wait for the police to arrive.

i thought it cant be theft if there is the openly intent to return, and i would imagine that not being on your own property would make it a somewhat interesting conversation-as will getting done for wasting police time.

and if you actually did ring the police for it then that would be why my works truck got done over and the police were too busy to get to it. that would make you a very sad individual indeed!

Yeah, because a Police call made from Ireland (I live in Ireland BTW) caused a Drain on your Police force. Riiiight.

Also your "openly intent to return" is a bunch of Crap. I Go off and steal beer from a off licence, they catch me, if I go "Oh I'm sorry, here I'll give it back!" do I get off scot free? If so where do you live I wanna go there.

Gwar! wrote:

dirkthe1 wrote:

Gwar! wrote:No, I can citizens arrest them and then decide not to press charges. How do you explain taking into your hands property that is not your without permission from the property owner?

That sounds a lot like theft to me.

Also, Manhandling isn't exactly what I would call locking the door while we wait for the police to arrive.

i thought it cant be theft if there is the openly intent to return, and i would imagine that not being on your own property would make it a somewhat interesting conversation-as will getting done for wasting police time.

and if you actually did ring the police for it then that would be why my works truck got done over and the police were too busy to get to it. that would make you a very sad individual indeed!

Yeah, because a Police call made from Ireland (I live in Ireland BTW) caused a Drain on your Police force. Riiiight.

Also your "openly intent to return" is a bunch of Crap. I Go off and steal beer from a off licence, they catch me, if I go "Oh I'm sorry, here I'll give it back!" do I get off scot free? If so where do you live I wanna go there.

Gwar, I have a fairly serious question: do you actually have any legal training, or law enforcement training or experience? I mean, do you actually have any idea what you're talking about, or are you simply making noise?

dirkthe1 is correct, all crimes requires a specific mens rea, and the intent to return would invalidate any charge of larceny against a person. BTW, holding somebody against their will is false imprisonment, which is a crime.

Always ask first. I don't mind my opponent moving models if they are out of reach IF I ask them to. I will occasionally offer to move an opponent's models if they are out of reach, awkwardly positioned or appear to be at risk of toppling/etc.

Polonius wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

dirkthe1 wrote:

Gwar! wrote:No, I can citizens arrest them and then decide not to press charges. How do you explain taking into your hands property that is not your without permission from the property owner?

That sounds a lot like theft to me.

Also, Manhandling isn't exactly what I would call locking the door while we wait for the police to arrive.

i thought it cant be theft if there is the openly intent to return, and i would imagine that not being on your own property would make it a somewhat interesting conversation-as will getting done for wasting police time.

and if you actually did ring the police for it then that would be why my works truck got done over and the police were too busy to get to it. that would make you a very sad individual indeed!

Yeah, because a Police call made from Ireland (I live in Ireland BTW) caused a Drain on your Police force. Riiiight.

Also your "openly intent to return" is a bunch of Crap. I Go off and steal beer from a off licence, they catch me, if I go "Oh I'm sorry, here I'll give it back!" do I get off scot free? If so where do you live I wanna go there.

Gwar, I have a fairly serious question: do you actually have any legal training, or law enforcement training or experience? I mean, do you actually have any idea what you're talking about, or are you simply making noise?

dirkthe1 is correct, all crimes requires a specific mens rea, and the intent to return would invalidate any charge of larceny against a person. BTW, holding somebody against their will is false imprisonment, which is a crime.

So are you saying (as a lawyer as you claim you be) that if I were to go and try and steal a small amount of booze (Say under $40) from a Liqueur store, and the owner catches me I can just say "OK mate, have it back" and then walk out, and any attempt by the Owner to hold me while the police are en route can be classes as false imprisonment? What about Security Guards Apprehending Shoplifters? Are you saying all the crap about "we will prosecute Shoplifters" are all lies as you cannot be arrested if you give the stolen items back?

Gwar! wrote:So are you saying (as a lawyer as you claim you be) that if I were to go and try and steal a small amount of booze (Say under $40) from a Liqueur store, and the owner catches me I can just say "OK mate, have it back" and then walk out, and any attempt by the Owner to hold me while the police are en route can be classes as false imprisonment? What about Security Guards Apprehending Shoplifters? Are you saying all the crap about "we will prosecute Shoplifters" are all lies as you cannot be arrested if you give the stolen items back?

First off, it's very important to note that I do not claim to be a lawyer. To do so would be in violation of Ohio law. I have graudated law school and I'm sitting for the bar at the end of July, but I am not a lawyer. Yet.

As for your question: Not at all. Mens Rea is determined at the time of the act. If your aim is to steal booze, then your intent was to commit larceny. If, on the other hand, you were to take a bottle off the shelf to read the back, that is not an intent to steal.

As for false imprisonment, there is a common law privilege known as the shop keepers privilege that allows merchants to hold suspected shoplifters until the police arrive.

Irish laws aren't laid out like US or Ohio laws, but I was able to find the Larceny Act of 1916 which has been amended but is still good law:

http://www.paclii.org/vu/legis/vu-uk_act/la191692/

Taken from there:

Larceny Act of 1916 wrote: Definition. - For the purposes of this Act -

(1) A person steals who, without the consent of the owner, fraudulently and without a claim of right made in good faith, takes and carries away anything capable of being stolen with intent, at the time of such taking, permanently to deprive the owner thereof;

Provided that a person may be guilty of stealing any such thing notwithstanding that he has lawful possession thereof, if, being a bailee or part owner thereof, he fraudulently converts the same to his own use or the use of any person other than the owner:

Bold added by me.

And if I were to act under the genuine belief that the person who picked up "my" models was indeed attempting to steal it?

(which the person in Question was [No I did not ring the police, I just found it really funny])

Gwar! wrote:

dirkthe1 wrote:

Gwar! wrote:No, I can citizens arrest them and then decide not to press charges. How do you explain taking into your hands property that is not your without permission from the property owner?

That sounds a lot like theft to me.

Also, Manhandling isn't exactly what I would call locking the door while we wait for the police to arrive.

i thought it cant be theft if there is the openly intent to return, and i would imagine that not being on your own property would make it a somewhat interesting conversation-as will getting done for wasting police time.

and if you actually did ring the police for it then that would be why my works truck got done over and the police were too busy to get to it. that would make you a very sad individual indeed!

Yeah, because a Police call made from Ireland (I live in Ireland BTW) caused a Drain on your Police force. Riiiight.

Also your "openly intent to return" is a bunch of Crap. I Go off and steal beer from a off licence, they catch me, if I go "Oh I'm sorry, here I'll give it back!" do I get off scot free? If so where do you live I wanna go there.

i merely suggested that the idea of someone being arrested for picking up a model is somewhat...bizarre?

and no, i didnt not mean that specific phone call, i just catagorised it into the band of waste of police time.

also the whole "i thought" implied im not stating facts just giving my opinion!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gwar! wrote:And if I were to act under the genuine belief that the person who picked up my models was indeed attempting to steal it?

you would be a complete moron

Gwar! wrote:And if I were to act under the genuine belief that the person who picked up my models was indeed attempting to steal it?

Then what? For a crime the only relevant intent is the intent of the defendant. If you were to use force to defend your property, you could do so, assuming you used reasonable force and they didn't immediately give the model back. You certainly couldn't hold them, as you wouldn't have the shopkeepers privilege.

What if the shopkeeper was present? How would that work?

Gwar! wrote:What if the shopkeeper was present? How would that work?

In what kind of situation? The kid isn't shoplifting, as he's not stealing from the store. In fact, he's not stealing from anybody.

Now, Ireland does allow Citizen's Arrest:
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1997/en/act/pub/0014/sec0004.html

Which states: "any person may arrest without warrant anyone who is or whom he or she, with reasonable cause, suspects to be in the act of committing an arrestable offence."

Keep in mind the definition of arrestable offence:
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1997/en/act/pub/0014/sec0002.html

Which is a crime punishable by five years in prison. Larceny is punishable by up to 10 years, so you would be ok, but I think you'd have a hard to convincing a jury that you thought a person that picked up your model was intending to steal it.

The point is that more than likely you won't press charges. No one did in this case. The point I was trying to make is that you CAN be arrested for it, even if your "intent" wasn't to steal them, it can be interpreted as such.

But they could press charges against you. If it's not found that you had reasonable cause to attempt to arrest them, you'd be charged with assault or false imprisonment or whatever. (Right? I'm no lawyer either...)

I don't usually ask but I handle their models with care and always hand them to the person or put it on the table carefully in front of them. I usually do this at the end of a game when there's something on my side of the board for awhile, and I just want to make sure they don't forget it's there. Can't count how many times I've been picking up, closed up my bag, and forgot a squad on the board.

Gwar! wrote:The point is that more than likely you won't press charges. No one did in this case. The point I was trying to make is that you CAN be arrested for it, even if your "intent" wasn't to steal them, it can be interpreted as such.

Well, you could be arrested for it, but then you would immediately sue the police for wrongful arrest. There simply was no crime being committed. The kid would sue, and most likely win, against the cops, you, and the shop.

And seriously, I don't get any props for finding and citing to specific parts of Irish Law? How is that not impressive?

Because Google is not impressive

But yeah, it all got sorted anyway here.

It was still freaking hilarious to see this psudo-tough guy kid bursting into tears though.

Yes I am a bastard.