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Well, different strokes for different folks I guess.

I would be annoyed, I guess other people are more mellow and enjoy playing Cardboardhammer 40k.

-Shrug-

I'm sorry, I must be reading a different thread. What is this 'cardboardhammer' and could you please point out any posts actually advocating it?

I dunno know bout you all, but those Defilers look like they follow full WYSIWYG for a Soul Grinder. Frankly, aside from the need to feel superiority about MY LEGION OF PLASTIC (AND METAAL) TOY ARMY MEN, I see no reason why anyone can object to that proxy. It's not like you're going to be confusing the Defiler for any other unit in the Chaos Daemons codex.

Totally legal. No TO will disallow this.

sourclams wrote:Totally legal. No TO will disallow this.

So is it "Totally Legal" to use my Dreadnought as a Carnifex? Because that is what is happening, you are using Model 1 From Army A to represent Model 2 from Army B. If you can do it with Chaos Daemons and Chaos Space Marines, I want to do it with Tyranids and Space Marines. I also want to use my Dark Eldar Raiders to use as Devilfish. Is that Totally legal? Again, it is the exact same thing.

Gwar! wrote:

sourclams wrote:Totally legal. No TO will disallow this.

So is it "Totally Legal" to use my Dreadnought as a Carnifex? Because that is what is happening, you are using Model 1 From Army A to represent Model 2 from Army B. If you can do it with Chaos Daemons and Chaos Space Marines, I want to do it with Tyranids and Space Marines. I also want to use my Dark Eldar Raiders to use as Devilfish. Is that Totally legal? Again, it is the exact same thing.

If your Dreadnought was a biological monstrosity with two arms that looked strangely like scything claws and a couple more arms that looked like smoe other tyranid weapons, and had nearly identical legs to a carnifex and was painted like the rest of your tyranid army.

Bricks to Brazil Nuts, the Soulgrinder and the Defiler are almost exactly the same thing.
If I showed up at a game with a chaos daemons army and said "hey, this Herald is The Masque" would you seriously get on my case about it?
Do you complain to Tau players that their devilfish don't have disruption pods on them?
Or how about a KFF that doesn't actually produce a tangible field of force?

Face it Gwar, you are TFG. I'm glad you don't frequent my FLGS, or I would just have to call it my LGS.

Canonness Rory wrote:Bricks to Brazil Nuts, the Soulgrinder and the Defiler are almost exactly the same thing.

Almost doesn't quite cut it.

Canonness Rory wrote:If I showed up at a game with a chaos daemons army and said "hey, this Herald is The Masque" would you seriously get on my case about it?

Yes.

Canonness Rory wrote:Do you complain to Tau players that their devilfish don't have disruption pods on them?

Yes.

Canonness Rory wrote:Or how about a KFF that doesn't actually produce a tangible field of force?

Now you are being facetious. It's a game, if course it won't generate a force field. I do expect you to have a KFF modelled though.

Canonness Rory wrote:Face it Gwar, you are TFG. I'm glad you don't frequent my FLGS, or I would just have to call it my LGS.

My adherence to the rules would be a shock I am sure.

For friendly games, I'd say there's definitely no problem. I take a lot of time to model and paint my Boyz, but that's for my own enjoyment, I don't believe that it confers a responsibility to anyone that I play against to do the same.

Now, as for tournaments. I believe if you want to play at tourneys, or even against more serious players at your local game shop, you should have models that are what they actually are. It's kind of like the "fully painted" rule that a lot of tourneys have. I know that some people don't have the time or resources to do this, but that just means that they'll have to sit it out. Life's not fair sometimes.

Rules are important, but they are secondary to the reasons why we have rules. Modeling rules exist for a variety of reasons, none of which the defiler to soulgrinder swap violate. It's not about using modeling to advantage, as they're the same size and shape. It's not WYSIWYG, as they both share the same rough set of weapons.

and it's not like using a carnifex for a dreadnought. It's closer to using a DA captain as a BA captain. If it's painted to match the army, who cares?

You are putting adherence to the rules over all other aspects of the hobby, and that's just weird, man.

Boodie-fething-hoo, some people are in it for the FUN, not to sit at the table and complain that somebody's Nob is chipped and refuse to play against the army they obviously spent no time or effort on.
Here's a tip: Your army being painted better than mine, or modeled better than mine, or anything else does not make you a better person than me. You have no Moral high ground here. You are an dick and you give the rest of us a bad name.

Polonius wrote:You are putting adherence to the rules over all other aspects of the hobby, and that's just weird, man.

No, I am saying that for the game to be enjoyable, you must stick to the rules. If we say "it's OK to break the rules in XYZ situation" where does it stop?

Gwar! wrote:

sourclams wrote:Totally legal. No TO will disallow this.

So is it "Totally Legal" to use my Dreadnought as a Carnifex? Because that is what is happening, you are using Model 1 From Army A to represent Model 2 from Army B. If you can do it with Chaos Daemons and Chaos Space Marines, I want to do it with Tyranids and Space Marines. I also want to use my Dark Eldar Raiders to use as Devilfish. Is that Totally legal? Again, it is the exact same thing.

Your Dreadnoughtfex isn't WYSIWYG.

Your Raiders aren't WYSIWYG.

See the common theme?

Gwar! wrote:

Polonius wrote:You are putting adherence to the rules over all other aspects of the hobby, and that's just weird, man.

No, I am saying that for the game to be enjoyable, you must stick to the rules. If we say "it's OK to break the rules in XYZ situation" where does it stop?

Ahh, the slippery slope, last refuge of the wrong and cranky.

You stop where breaking the rules actually impacts the game. Defiler for Soulgrinder does not. Properly painted and converted, it doesn't even affect the aesthetic.

Canonness Rory wrote:Boodie-fething-hoo, some people are in it for the FUN, not to sit at the table and complain that somebody's Nob is chipped and refuse to play against the army they obviously spent no time or effort on.
Here's a tip: Your army being painted better than mine, or modeled better than mine, or anything else does not make you a better person than me. You have no Moral high ground here. You are an dick and you give the rest of us a bad name.

Then why argue with him? He's saying that he wouldn't be happy if you pulled this against him. If that is this offensive to you, then don't play against people that are that hard into the rules. You know that soulgrinder>Defiler isn't the same as dreadnought>carnifex. I know it. Even Gwar! knows it, he's just using it as an example to prove his point that you can't just grab models as you please from whatever army you'd like and expect everyone to be ok with it. And you can't. Same basic shape and size=/=equal same. If I was at a tourney and someone pulled out a MAN that they glued a boss poll to and expected me to believe it was Ghazghkull, I'd tell them to get a real model (or at least custom make a better one), and would be right in doing so.

I'm sort of with you in that the game is supposed to be fun 1st. But as someone that has gotten into other games on a competitive level, I understand that there's a separate level of satisfaction in completely understanding, adhering to and mastering the rules. He's that type of person. You're not. big ing deal.

Gwar! wrote:

Polonius wrote:You are putting adherence to the rules over all other aspects of the hobby, and that's just weird, man.

No, I am saying that for the game to be enjoyable, you must stick to the rules. If we say "it's OK to break the rules in XYZ situation" where does it stop?

Except it's not breaking the rules to use a perfectly WYSIWYG model instead of another perfectly WYSIWYG model.
What if I wanted to use a converted piece on the table? I've been playing around with the idea of using some pieces from the warriors of chaos to model my chaos lord, would you complain because "your chaos lord's head looks like platemail rather than power armor, that's not WYSIWYG because platemail shouldn't get a 3+ save! And is that a hammer? You can't use a hammer as a Power Sword what's wrong with you!?"

sourclams wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

sourclams wrote:Totally legal. No TO will disallow this.

So is it "Totally Legal" to use my Dreadnought as a Carnifex? Because that is what is happening, you are using Model 1 From Army A to represent Model 2 from Army B. If you can do it with Chaos Daemons and Chaos Space Marines, I want to do it with Tyranids and Space Marines. I also want to use my Dark Eldar Raiders to use as Devilfish. Is that Totally legal? Again, it is the exact same thing.

Your Dreadnoughtfex isn't WYSIWYG.

Your Raiders aren't WYSIWYG.

See the common theme?

And how is using a Chaos Space Marine Defiler WYSIWYG for a Chaos Daemons Soul Grinder? it isn't. It looks similar, but it is not WYSIWYG because What I see is a Defiler, but what I get is a Soul Grinder.

Deffgob wrote:Then why argue with him? He's saying that he wouldn't be happy if you pulled this against him. If that is this offensive to you, then don't play against people that are that hard into the rules. You know that soulgrinder>Defiler isn't the same as dreadnought>carnifex. I know it. Even Gwar! knows it, he's just using it as an example to prove his point that you can't just grab models as you please from whatever army you'd like and expect everyone to be ok with it. And you can't. Same basic shape and size=/=equal same. If I was at a tourney and someone pulled out a MAN that they glued a boss poll to and expected me to believe it was Ghazghkull, I'd tell them to get a real model (or at least custom make a better one), and would be right in doing so.

Finally someone with Brains on Dakka. I never thought I'd meet another! (Apart from Lunahound ofc, but she has Chesticles and therefore better than us Mortals )

Gwar! wrote:And how is using a Chaos Space Marine Defiler WYSIWYG for a Chaos Daemons Soul Grinder? it isn't. It looks similar, but it is not WYSIWYG because What I see is a Defiler, but what I get is a Soul Grinder.

Daemon Engine: Check
Cannon: Check
Multibarrel Gun: Check
Close Combat Claw: Check
Arachnoid Tarantula Chassis that makes the model bigger than a Land Raider: Check

How's it different again? Oh right, it's not. Good try though. Likewise I sure hope your Space Wolves dreadnoughts are all the old metal models, not the Ultramarines Assault on Black Reach models. And I sure hope that your Space Wolves all have multiple Space Wolf Upgrade Sprue bits, because I sure as hell don't recall Ultramarines being recruited for Blood Claws. And god help you if you have any heavy weapons models that didn't come from the Long Fangs box.

sourclams wrote:Likewise I sure hope your Space Wolves dreadnoughts are all the old metal models, not the Ultramarines Assault on Black Reach models. And I sure hope that your Space Wolves all have multiple Space Wolf Upgrade Sprue bits, because I sure as hell don't recall Ultramarines being recruited for Blood Claws. And god help you if you have any heavy weapons models that didn't come from the Long Fangs box.

Well, as it is, yes, My Venerable Dreadnoughts ARE the old metal models, it's even got the date stamped inside it (one is stripped and awaiting repaint atm, the other at a friends house by accident) made in 1993. All my Grey Hunters and Blood Claws are made from their Respective boxes. As for Long Fangs, I actually don't have any Built, but I have a Box Stashed away Somewhere.

Would you like a Picture?

So, you were ranting about WYSIWYG?

Yes please, of each model, with the relevant Space Wolf Sprue bits highlighted. It's only fair, really, that you provide the proof of your assertion.

Gwar! wrote:

sourclams wrote:Likewise I sure hope your Space Wolves dreadnoughts are all the old metal models, not the Ultramarines Assault on Black Reach models. And I sure hope that your Space Wolves all have multiple Space Wolf Upgrade Sprue bits, because I sure as hell don't recall Ultramarines being recruited for Blood Claws. And god help you if you have any heavy weapons models that didn't come from the Long Fangs box.

, My Venerable Dreadnoughts ARE the old metal models

Models? Sorry, I refuse to play you until you have an actual, live venerable dreadnought from the Space Wolves chapter on the table.

And god help you if your space marines aren't actually 8 feet tall.

sourclams wrote:Yes please, of each model, with the relevant Space Wolf Sprue bits highlighted. It's only fair, really, that you provide the proof of your assertion.

As you wish. As I said one model is not in my possession atm, but I will gladly take some pictures of my recently stripped models for you. Hell, I even have a 2nd edition GH Box that I haven't painted yet, I'll take a photo of it too.

Gimme a minute

to the very respectable Gwar! trolle:
Not a fan of anything counts-as? Mechanicus and Genestealer Cult armies must really get your goat.

Anyhow, GW has suggested counts-as modeling as acceptable on multiple occasions.
As long as those counts-as models are consistent.

Thus, I reiterate, Gwar! is wrong.
Both in sportsmanlike behavior and in judgment.

No Offence, but a themed counts as army is in a totaly different league to "Im lazy I wanna use my Defiler as a Soul grinder"

And now for you mr Sourpuss, These aren't ALL my models (as it is 5am and I frankly have better things to do) But certainly enough for you to put to bed any worries that I might not have a WYSIWYG Army.
Firstly, my metal Old Venerable Dreadnought

Now, some rather Wolfy Looking Stripped Blood Claws

The Black primed SW Accessory Sprue for my Upcoming Grey Hunters

And now my Box of Second Edition Grey Hunters, which I have yet to even Unpack yet. See, I was so concerned about you Sourclams I actually Unpacked them for you.


Convinced?

So, would a properly converted model that could easily do double duty also offend you? Meaning, if it wasn't simply a product of sloth, is there a way you could see a model being used as one or the other?

Polonius wrote:So, would a properly converted model that could easily do double duty also offend you? Meaning, if it wasn't simply a product of sloth, is there a way you could see a model being used as one or the other?

No, a Model that was converted to be modular and able to be used as both legally would be acceptable. What is not acceptable is just putting down a Stock Defiler and claiming it is a Soul Grinder.

Gwar! wrote:

Polonius wrote:So, would a properly converted model that could easily do double duty also offend you? Meaning, if it wasn't simply a product of sloth, is there a way you could see a model being used as one or the other?

No, a Model that was converted to be modular and able to be used as both legally would be acceptable. What is not acceptable is just putting down a Stock Defiler and claiming it is a Soul Grinder.

OK, now what level of conversion is required? I would like as specific a standard as possible. Does it have to magnetized and modular?

So how, respectable trolle Gwar!, do you tell the difference between a person that prefers the aesthetic of the Defiler as opposed to the Soulgrinder.
Do you reserve your condemnation until they subject themselves to your gentle pre-game interrogations?
Or do you assume the worst, and silently brew in your annoyance giving them poor soft-scores?

Belphegor wrote:So how, respectable trolle Gwar!, do you tell the difference between a person that prefers the aesthetic of the Defiler as opposed to the Soulgrinder.
Do you reserve your condemnation until they subject themselves to your gentle pre-game interrogations?
Or do you assume the worst, and silently brew in your annoyance giving them poor soft-scores?

No I tell them straight up "That is not a Soul Grinder, that is a Defiler. Why are you using an Incorrect model? Please remove the model and replace it with the correct one." If I am in a tournament and the TO has Cleared it, I'll shrug it off. After all, that Same TO can choose to ban Pink Models if he wants. In a Non Tournament Game I will just tell him to either get his army complete or not play at all.

Belphegor wrote:So how, respectable trolle Gwar!, do you tell the difference between a person that prefers the aesthetic of the Defiler as opposed to the Soulgrinder.
Do you reserve your condemnation until they subject themselves to your gentle pre-game interrogations?
Or do you assume the worst, and silently brew in your annoyance giving them poor soft-scores?

Real points: If I ever pan to field a defiler, I will go for the soul grinder model, it is simply cooler looking. I'll probably slap a reaper autocannon onto it instead of it's multi-barreled thing, but yeah, some people just prefer them for aesthetic reasons.

Do you reserve your condemnation until they subject themselves to your gentle pre-game interrogations?

I'd submit myself to your gentle pre-game interrogations.....

Honestly, how can anyone have any kind of issue with the Soul Grinder... its just too adorable.

Personally I wouldn't have a problem with you fielding one as a Defiler. In fact I'd demand that you do it. Even if you weren't playing Chaos I'd be all 'Soul Grinder... NAO!'