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willydstyle wrote:
I guess if you're playing purely for aesthetics and you like how they look, then firewarriors are fine.

As a troops unit in 5th ed, their weak morale rules, their poor survivability, and the fact that they are only truly deadly within 12"... but if they're within 12" they get slaughtered by only a few enemies, they're pretty crappy if you're trying to play competitively at all.

Fire Warriors pay 10 points to get Ld 8.
Kroot pay 21 points for the same option.
Fire Warriors > Kroot as far as Ld goes.

Fire Warriors have a 4+ armor save, as well as the ability to take a devilfish.
Kroot have no armor save, and NEED to be in cover, or get slaughtered by ANYTHING. Their save in cover is the same as a fire warrior save in open field. They also cannot take devilfish.
Fire Warriors > Kroot as far as surviveability goes.

Fire Warriors, due to their devilfish, are more mobile than kroot, and can get within 12 inches far easier than kroot can, unless kroot infiltrate or outflank, 1 of which makes you a prime target for the enemy, the other makes you a waste of points until turn 2, 3, or even 4 if you're unlucky.

Let's see what happens when they shoot at each other:
Fire Warriors can also take advantage of markerlights, a unit of FWs with a networked markerlight is 140 points.
a unit of 20 kroot is 140 points.

Fire Warriors get 12 shots at BS4.
Kroot get 20 shots at BS3

Fire Warriors hit with 8
Kroot hit with 10

Fire Warriors wound with 6.7
Kroot wound with 6.7.
Kroot get no saves, or 3.35 if they are in cover
Fire warriors get 3.25 saves no matter what.

At 24-30 inches, kroot get NO shots, FWs get all 12.
In assault kroot win hands down, but only a poor general lets FWs get assaulted by a footslogging unit that doesn't have fleet.


Not to say I don't LOVE kroot. I love their fluff, I love their models, I love their rules, they are easily equal to fire warriors, but not in the same fields.
A squad of 20 kroot in a forest objective is nearly impossible to take off.
Vs orks kroot are better at shooting, and even beat them in assault if they get the charge.
And a unit of 10 kroot is one of the cheapest units, if you use them for the purpose of holding the home objective they can make the difference between victory and defeat (grots, at 40 points, are the cheapest)

Canonness Rory wrote:


Fire Warriors have a 4+ armor save, as well as the ability to take a devilfish.
Kroot have no armor save, and NEED to be in cover, or get slaughtered by ANYTHING. Their save in cover is the same as a fire warrior save in open field. They also cannot take devilfish.
Fire Warriors > Kroot as far as surviveability goes.

Errr. Kroot's cover save in woods is 3+ which is 1 better than fire warriors armor save. Woods give +4 cover natrually and kroot get one better than that. Gives them a cover save equal to power armor. In woods or jungle they get the cover save of marine power armor. Too bad they can't get photon grenades as they would be unassaultable in cover. Also kroot can use devilfish (assuming they are 12 or less units) they just can't take it as a dedicated transport.

Personaly i think kroot are a decent unit i just don't like them because they don't look as cool as the rest of my tau army

VoxDei wrote:

Canonness Rory wrote:


Fire Warriors have a 4+ armor save, as well as the ability to take a devilfish.
Kroot have no armor save, and NEED to be in cover, or get slaughtered by ANYTHING. Their save in cover is the same as a fire warrior save in open field. They also cannot take devilfish.
Fire Warriors > Kroot as far as surviveability goes.

Errr. Kroot's cover save in woods is 3+ which is 1 better than fire warriors armor save. Woods give +4 cover natrually and kroot get one better than that. Gives them a cover save equal to power armor. In woods or jungle they get the cover save of marine power armor. Too bad they can't get photon grenades as they would be unassaultable in cover. Also kroot can use devilfish (assuming they are 12 or less units) they just can't take it as a dedicated transport.

Personaly i think kroot are a decent unit i just don't like them because they don't look as cool as the rest of my tau army

And yet it can still be denied by a flamer, and a kroot squad squatting in cover that isn't an objective is a kroot squad wasted.
And a kroot squad of 12 or less is worthless, whether or not it can use a devilfish, especially considering you need a squad of footslogging fire warriors for every squad of kroot you want to mobilize.

Vox Dei for the little Apocalypse has introduced a weapon that can take out entire squads of broadsides and saying that it doesn't exist, you obviously haven't done much Apoc.

BaneBlade Cannon 72" range.
STR 9 (More than Double the toughness of an XV-88...so multiple wounds go bye bye).
AP 2 ( Broadside has SV of 2...guess that's gone)

And to finish it all off, it's got a 10" blast template, which means, if it hits...goodbye XV-88 squad, unless of course they did decide to throw shield generators on all of them ((Fing expensive)), then they have a small chance.

Avrik_Shasla wrote:Vox Dei for the little Apocalypse has introduced a weapon that can take out entire squads of broadsides and saying that it doesn't exist, you obviously haven't done much Apoc.

BaneBlade Cannon 72" range.
STR 9 (More than Double the toughness of an XV-88...so multiple wounds go bye bye).
AP 2 ( Broadside has SV of 2...guess that's gone)

And to finish it all off, it's got a 10" blast template, which means, if it hits...goodbye XV-88 squad, unless of course they did decide to throw shield generators on all of them ((Fing expensive)), then they have a small chance.

Even then, with everyone and their dog giving 4+ cover saves, you might as well just stick them in Area Terrain and save the points.

I've never gotten to play an apocalypse game, but I made a list once for an intended game that scheduling never worked out for.

I think I had 14 heavy support choices. Nine of them were single Broadside suits with two shield drones each. You're not going to get all my units in a shot or two.

Ion Cannon = Anti-Horde sort of?

djphranq wrote:Ion Cannon = Anti-Horde sort of?

It's AP3, hardly anti Hoard. It's anti Marine, but took a beating cause of the Defensive Weapon nerf and Cover everywhere.

Gwar! wrote:

djphranq wrote:Ion Cannon = Anti-Horde sort of?

It's AP3, hardly anti Hoard. It's anti Marine, but took a beating cause of the Defensive Weapon nerf and Cover everywhere.

It's also Heavy 3, and 60" range, and S7, meaning it can do anti-light vehicle duty, like say, all those Chimeras, valks, wave serpents and rhino/razorbacks popping up.

It's hardly worthless, it just needs to be thought of as a Tau-ish AC/HB pred.

If you play against a lot of MEQ armies it is worth using. If you go against a horde, don't bother. The Submunition round from the Railhead is more effective. Even at AP4 it's still effective since most hordes have 4+ or higher armor saves so cover is the only thing keeping you alive.

Either way IMO the Hammer head is more versatile than broadsides due to their mobility.

Ionhead does feel bit undergunned, but it also doesn't cost you arm & leg. Ionhead with Burst cannons, Disruption pod, Multi-tracker and Target lock costs 135 points. It is easy to fit two to 1000 point list, and you have nice combination of flexibility, mobility and survivability, and in fact fairly good anti-horde firepower. But yeah, at 1500 pts + Ionhead probably will look less attractive.

UsdiThunder wrote:If you play against a lot of MEQ armies it is worth using. If you go against a horde, don't bother. The Submunition round from the Railhead is more effective. Even at AP4 it's still effective since most hordes have 4+ or higher armor saves so cover is the only thing keeping you alive.

Either way IMO the Hammer head is more versatile than broadsides due to their mobility.

I totally forgot about the submunition round...

What kills the Ionhead are cover saves everywhere. The ion cannon was a way for Tau to get long range Ap3, back before there were rail rifles. Sometimes it was a useful option for killing heavy infantry. Now less so even with the price drop.

My one Hammerhead was pinned and magnetised so I could swap weapons, but I cant remember when I last used the Ion cannon.

Orlanth wrote:What kills the Ionhead are cover saves everywhere.

But isn't that worse for the Railhead, which shoots only once per turn?

Backfire wrote:

Orlanth wrote:What kills the Ionhead are cover saves everywhere.

But isn't that worse for the Railhead, which shoots only once per turn?

Railheads are offset by the new blast rules that pretty much ensure you hit SOMETHING, while the ion Cannon still does it au Classical

Dashofpepper wrote:

Sidstyler wrote:

Dashofpepper wrote:Here's one for you - if you have a heavy support choice consisting of 3 Broadsides, one of which is a team leader, a target lock, advanced stabilization systems (or more drone controllers) and shield drones....

You've got one expensive-ass unit that costs twice as much as your hammerhead?

Yep I do. It does a lot MORE than a hammerhead, and in my humblest of opinions, is worth every point of it. I think broadsides make up the cornerstone of a Tau army, and if you mesh them with your army well, make you nigh unstoppable.

But then again, I'm just a random guy on the internet right? =p On the other hand, out of my last 50 or so games with my Tau, I've lost...well, none.

Against the guy in my group who plays tau there are almost always broadsides. They're always in back, always difficult for me to get into combat with, and of course I can't shoot them for anything because I have no long range weapons that are AP2--or even 3 for that matter. They just focus on my MC's and reliably put wounds on them. And of course they wreck vehicles. But my friend is smart and always has a unit near them for screening purposes (often kroot). He always makes it difficult for me to get into combat with them, which is why they are very survivable and always do well. If he wasn't smart about it and left them by themselves they wouldn't be worth it, but he protects them like they were his own ballsack, so while they're expensive they always worry me and usually always survive.

What you want then are scuttling Genestealers combined with a Lictor

Which I have used in the past to great effect but with all the new guard stuff that nerfs outflanking I've basically cut them from my list. And more and more I've found them less effective as they always seem to come in late, on the wrong side of the board, and only 50% or less come in when I need them to. It does work and I love the lictor, but for my elites I now either have warriors (as cover saves for my big guys) or fexes (for a heavy MC list). 80 points for a guy who must take a dangerous terrain test every time he comes in just doesn't work for me...

What about 21 Point Winged Spinerippers?

whitedragon wrote:Ionheads were awesome in 4th, with Defensive weapons being S6. They were like AC/HB preds, able to drive around and unload a hella dakka wherever you needed it, or a potent 3 shot burst from 60" away after scooting away.

In 5th now, they are still cheap, not quite as mobile, and can stand off far enough away to benefit from a disruption pod. However, if you are playing fully mech, you need your railguns on your hammerheads, but if you are playing hybrid tau, your railguns will be on broadsides, leaving you space for an ionhead.

Gun drones, (see the vehicle entry for these guys), when mounted on a vehicle can fire in additional to any weapon/s that could be fired. So you can cruise along @ 12 & fire one main weapon (because your firing 'as' a fast vehicle, thanks to the 10pt multi-tracker).

Granted youve now gone down from 6 shots down to 2 shots.. but they are pinning. (From 4th ed str 5 defensive burst cannons to 5th edition!)

Do that, plus disruption pods & maybe fleshette jobbies.. and you now have a fast, dangerous tank thats hard to get rid of and can put out a worth amount of firepower. I would prefer Ion-cannons any day over railguns - When it comes to taking down chimera & rhinos.
But the great thing is, if you field those anti-tank demons; Broadsides with ASS & shield drones.. you kinda have split interests. The Ionhead wont just go away yet if it does, your own heavy battle tanks are still at risk.

It also kills Marines and poorly equipped/eldar equipped MC's. I mean.. why I see people with nid armies fielding loads of 3+ saving MC's when they can easily field 2+ saves for nearly 2/3 of thier total possible MC's, I dont know.

Gwar! wrote:What about 21 Point Winged Spinerippers?

So fun, so fluffy, such a great reaction from people when I put 10 ripper bases in the corner and charge them forward.

Grunt_For_Christ wrote:

Gwar! wrote:What about 21 Point Winged Spinerippers?

So fun, so fluffy, such a great reaction from people when I put 10 ripper bases in the corner and charge them forward.

Yup. What I was suggesting to a friend who plays nids is, against Tau is to take some outflanking Stealers and some Winged Rippers. That means he deploys his Boardsides in the center to avoid the stealers and then you Deep Strike in with the Fearless Rippers and rip them up next turn.

of course I first told him to buy 6 Carnifexes but he doesn't want to

Don't forget as Tau you have the ability to remove cover saves, with markerlights. This is the one thing that still keeps Tau as a Viable army. Last I played I kept pinging unit after unit trying to hide in cover with my markerlights and hitting them with an Ion head and 2 rail heads. They didn't have a chance.

Ability to move cover is one of the few saving graces. Everything else is fairly over cost.

Avrik_Shasla wrote:Vox Dei for the little Apocalypse has introduced a weapon that can take out entire squads of broadsides and saying that it doesn't exist, you obviously haven't done much Apoc.

BaneBlade Cannon 72" range.
STR 9 (More than Double the toughness of an XV-88...so multiple wounds go bye bye).
AP 2 ( Broadside has SV of 2...guess that's gone)

And to finish it all off, it's got a 10" blast template, which means, if it hits...goodbye XV-88 squad, unless of course they did decide to throw shield generators on all of them ((Fing expensive)), then they have a small chance.

I think you miss understood my post. I wasn't saying there isn't one. I was asking if there was and expressing my supprise. It was a question. I have never played Apoc nor do i have the book. I was also asking why don't people just take a whole army of these and plaster the deployment zone and win first round?

VoxDei wrote:

Avrik_Shasla wrote:Vox Dei for the little Apocalypse has introduced a weapon that can take out entire squads of broadsides and saying that it doesn't exist, you obviously haven't done much Apoc.

BaneBlade Cannon 72" range.
STR 9 (More than Double the toughness of an XV-88...so multiple wounds go bye bye).
AP 2 ( Broadside has SV of 2...guess that's gone)

And to finish it all off, it's got a 10" blast template, which means, if it hits...goodbye XV-88 squad, unless of course they did decide to throw shield generators on all of them ((Fing expensive)), then they have a small chance.

I think you miss understood my post. I wasn't saying there isn't one. I was asking if there was and expressing my supprise. It was a question. I have never played Apoc nor do i have the book. I was also asking why don't people just take a whole army of these and plaster the deployment zone and win first round?

Because people don't gak £50 notes and piss Pound Coins.

Well... I suppose you could do that, but playing Apocalypse isn't exactly about the automatic win so much as it is about the game.

That being said, there are builds that could counter even that... not to be ridiculous or start a "top this" tangent, but deepstriking or flank marching (reserves enter from any table edge) with a whole lot of crisis suits equipped with shield generators and fusion would probably give those tanks a bad day, especially considering from a monetary standpoint you can get 5 crisis for 1 baneblade, and probably somewhere on the order of a 12:1 ratio for points. Would be an interesting match up now that I think of it, although not necessarily a fun one.