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JohnHwangDD wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:I love it when faced with an actual horrid crime everyone drops all pretenses of civilization and morality and just thinks up the worst punishment they possibly can.

I'm not creating anything.

The Wheel has been around for ages.

Prisoner abuse of pedophiles is a well-documented fact.

As are incredible prison recidivism rates and the proven statistic of sex crim perpetrators having a very hard to adjusting to a society once they are released.


Just because the prison system is a fethed up mess that doesn't work in either concept or execution doesn't mean you should laugh and point at people in it.

What's that Shuma? That sounds like child-rapist-sympathizer talk to me!

I dislike it immensely when people get riled up and damn people that they've never met. That could very well not even exist. For crimes that they have no real involvement with and in most cases no actual meaningful knowledge about.

This may sound like I'm high horsing again but seriously. Get your jollies somewhere else, this isn't fething news. There are a dozen wars going on, the economy is in shambles, there are 20 countries I can list off the top of my head that institutionalize abuses of woman and childrens rights. Stop shouting over an ugly chick taking pictures of kids, media blitzes don't make police investigations more effective, they just get in the way.

To be honest, she will go to prison and face a life in there of unrelenting hell for several years. Many of her fellow inmates will be mothers, angry, low intellect, violent, mothers.

In her position I'd rather be locked up with crack addicted hyenas than those women, they will destroy her.

Pause for a moment to pity her situa....hmm, wonder what I'm having for lunch

garret wrote:worse then a pedophile
hmm
terroists?

You're missing the point.

Him miss the point? No way in hell.

With any luck the woman will get what she deserves, well maybe not what she deserves but something, maybe like MGS was saying a daily beating by the low intellect mothers she'll be in prison, which might actually be what she deserves.

Just to play Devils advocate for a moment we have no way of knowing that the only reason she did this was for the cash. It's perfectly possible that she was getting some kind of gratification from this, if this was a Man instead of a Woman the idea that they where only doing it for the money wouldn't have even entered our heads. I'm sure the appropriate psychiatric evaluations will, in time, give us the answer.

If it was just for the money does this make it worse? Arguably yes as a pedophile at least has some kind of mental Illness/imbalance to explain (though not excuse) their actions.

As to what to go what them. Well if its just for the cash I say a general population seem fine tome. If she is sick? Well I think some kind of special institution would be the best place. In the states facilities for sex offenders are run, anyone who saw the documentary by Louis Theroux call 'A place for pedophiles' will know what I'm talking about. I personally think such institutions should exist in the UK as well as they seem like a sensible solution.

I'm not for the death penalty or public flogging thankfully we got rid of lynch mobs quite some time ago.

I will never change my opinion on the need for the death sentance for people who abuse children and then kill them. Everything else to do with children needs to be solitary, for life (and the only reason for this is in case of a police balls up).

She will go to prison. Will she come back out again? I wouldn't like to say. A woman who abuses children is so alien, it hits us harder and the female inmates will have their revenge, that you can guarantee.

If a crime is committed by someone who suffers from a psychological illness this is usually taken into account in the trial and sentencing and they will be sent to a secure psychiatric institution like Broadmoor Mental Institution.

The theory is that if they can be cured of their illness, it has a bearing on whether they should be ever be released.

That's usually serial killers and the like, though. Most paedos go to the 'nonce' wing of a standard prison, where they get a hard time from the other prisoners if they can be got at.

People who become paedophiliacs have often been sexually abused as children themselves -- this may indicate some kind of mental scarring which could bias them to perform that kind of behaviour. I have no in-depth knowledge of the topic.

This woman if found guilty will be classified as a paedophiliac because she has done crimes which are registered in law as paedophile crimes. It doesn't mean she is a 'clinical' paedo.

She will also have to sign the sex offenders register and inform the police of moving house and stuff.

There was a TV show presented by Louis Theroux, where he went to a facility in america that caters as a "prison town" for paedophiles, in this show, it was theorised that paedophilia is a sexual preference, just like homosexuality or heterosexuality.

Goliath wrote:There was a TV show presented by Louis Theroux, where he went to a facility in america that caters as a "prison town" for paedophiles, in this show, it was theorised that paedophilia is a sexual preference, just like homosexuality or heterosexuality.

I'm sure whoever thought of that theory either had Syphilis or was a Peado themselves.

The fact is 99.999999% of prepubescent children simply do not have the mental capacity or ability to decide that they want to be sexually active, not to mention that 99.9999999999% cases of where this is claimed are simply child abuse through psychological abuse and manipulation. And if they DO happen to have the mental capacity for it, then they also have the mental capacity to realise what the law is and to not break the law.

As for the Adults, they should know better than to break the law. If they can't handle it, get 6 feet of rope and a bridge or move to Japan to bone 13 year olds and fap to Lolicon. (No offence intended to Japanese people, just the first country off the top of my head that had a low Age of Consent)

ShumaGorath wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:I love it when faced with an actual horrid crime everyone drops all pretenses of civilization and morality and just thinks up the worst punishment they possibly can.

I'm not creating anything.

The Wheel has been around for ages.

Prisoner abuse of pedophiles is a well-documented fact.

As are incredible prison recidivism rates and the proven statistic of sex crim perpetrators having a very hard to adjusting to a society once they are released.


Just because the prison system is a fethed up mess that doesn't work in either concept or execution doesn't mean you should laugh and point at people in it.

What's that Shuma? That sounds like child-rapist-sympathizer talk to me!

I dislike it immensely when people get riled up and damn people that they've never met. That could very well not even exist. For crimes that they have no real involvement with and in most cases no actual meaningful knowledge about.

This may sound like I'm high horsing again but seriously. Get your jollies somewhere else, this isn't fething news. There are a dozen wars going on, the economy is in shambles, there are 20 countries I can list off the top of my head that institutionalize abuses of woman and childrens rights. Stop shouting over an ugly chick taking pictures of kids, media blitzes don't make police investigations more effective, they just get in the way.

Well said.

Edited due to tech chaos.

I'm not sure I buy the whole "mentally ill" angle.

What is it about pedophiles that make them unable to control their actions when they cause harm to others? What they're attracted to may be inborn, but that's not the reason they're arrested.

Regular rapists aren't justified due to being attracted to women. Sadists aren't justified if they torture someone (non-consensually, of course), regardless of what they're attracted to. If sexual frustration is pretty much never seen as an excuse in these cases, why is it different for pedophiles? Is is just too alien to people? Is there some sort of secondary mental problem that pedophiles have that makes them incapable of considering their actions? What?

Orkeosaurus wrote:I'm not sure I buy the whole "mentally ill" angle.

What is it about pedophiles that make them unable to control their actions when they cause harm to others? What they're attracted to may be inborn, but that's not the reason they're arrested.

Regular rapists aren't justified due to being attracted to women. Sadists aren't justified if they torture someone (non-consensually, of course), regardless of what they're attracted to. If sexual frustration is pretty much never seen as an excuse in these cases, why is it different for pedophiles? Is is just too alien to people? Is there some sort of secondary mental problem that pedophiles have that makes them incapable of considering their actions? What?

I hate to use the phrase 'with respect' as it often precedes a statement which is made completely without respect, however, 'with respect' neither you nor I am a mental health practitioner nor a lawmaker so we can't really judge on these matters.

I am sure you would grant that there are mental illnesses which are very well researched and documented, such as schizophrenia. I mean, mental illness does exist, and we can't deny out of hand that various strange behaviours might be due to mental illness rather than personal choice, even if we don't understand the mechanism by which the sickness operates.

Whether paedophilia is a mental illness is another thing. Certainly, from watching documentary programmes about paedophiles, it is obvious that they simply don't see anything wrong with what they do. They think Society is weird, not them. Perhaps it's a kind of condition like autism, or psychopathy, in which the sufferer cannot understand the inner mental processes of other people.

ShumaGorath wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:The Wheel has been around for ages.

Prisoner abuse of pedophiles is a well-documented fact.

As are incredible prison recidivism rates and the proven statistic of sex crim perpetrators having a very hard to adjusting to a society once they are released.

Just because the prison system is a fethed up mess that doesn't work in either concept or execution doesn't mean you should laugh and point at people in it.

Did you even read what I said:
- lifetime incarceration of pedophiles
- visibly mark pedophiles as "fair game" for prisoner-on-prisoner abuse

I'm not a Liberal, so I don't pretend that prison "cures" anything. I see prison as a hellhole to *punish* people. I don't believe that pedophiles can be "cured", nor that sexual predators should ever be released back into society.

I fully recognize the prison system is a mess, but I believe it can work very well if you see it for what it is, fully recognizing that imprisonment is a stupid idea.

I happen to believe that capital punishment is generally "better" because there's no pretending that people will be "cured".

JohnHwangDD wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:The Wheel has been around for ages.

Prisoner abuse of pedophiles is a well-documented fact.

As are incredible prison recidivism rates and the proven statistic of sex crim perpetrators having a very hard to adjusting to a society once they are released.

Just because the prison system is a fethed up mess that doesn't work in either concept or execution doesn't mean you should laugh and point at people in it.

Did you even read what I said:
- lifetime incarceration of shoplifters
- visibly mark shoplifters as "fair game" for prisoner-on-prisoner abuse

Fix'd for you.

Where does it stop? Lets start locking up Black people! Or how about Catholics!

Gwar! wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:
Did you even read what I said:
- lifetime incarceration of shoplifters
- visibly mark shoplifters as "fair game" for prisoner-on-prisoner abuse

Fix'd for you.
Where does it stop? Lets start locking up Black people! Or how about Catholics!

Sure, as long as they come for the Commies first, then the Jews, and me last...

JohnHwangDD wrote:- visibly mark pedophiles as "fair game" for prisoner-on-prisoner abuse.

Fething great idea, let's encourage vigilanteism amongst those who are already incredibly unstable, violent, and have perpetrated crimes!

Now you wonder why some people deride and mock those who say that the USA is the greatest country on earth? And before you come out with some not-so-witty comeback, I was being rhetorical and over the top. You get what I mean.

sA

Hey, the crime happened in YOUR country pal.

Wrt the post that compared paedophilia and rape - paedophilia is a sexual attraction, and could, by some arguments be due to a mental status/illness that cannot be helped. This could explain the desire, though it would not excuse the act. It could, however, be argued that it may mitigate the act. In this case, it is suggested by some that it is a financial motivation that could have been fulfilled in many other ways, making the act seem particularly callous and impossible to mitigate. Rape is generally not considered to be a sexual act, but rather a power and/or violent one that manifests in a sexual way, and, whilst there may be other ways in which to mitigate (never excuse) responsibility for the act, sexual attraction is difficult in the extreme to use as mitigation for culpability in a rape case.

smiling Assassin wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:- visibly mark pedophiles as "fair game" for prisoner-on-prisoner abuse.

Fething great idea, let's encourage vigilanteism amongst those who are already incredibly unstable, violent, and have perpetrated crimes!

Now you wonder why some people deride and mock those who say that the USA is the greatest country on earth? And before you come out with some not-so-witty comeback, I was being rhetorical and over the top. You get what I mean.

sA

And before *you* come out with some not-so-witty comeback, I was being rhetorical and over the top.

You get what I mean?

Besides, at least in our case, we can still make a tenable claim to being the greatest country on earth. The sun has set on other's claims for quite some time, whereas our military spans the globe.

Gwar! wrote:Taking bets that she will receive a suspended sentence or even get off with community service because she is a woman and UK judges seem to be allergic to locking people up.

Welcome to the US ala 2020.

That is one of many things that happens when a society gets more and more liberal.

Unfortunate.

Kilkrazy wrote:I hate to use the phrase 'with respect' as it often precedes a statement which is made completely without respect, however, 'with respect' neither you nor I am a mental health practitioner nor a lawmaker so we can't really judge on these matters.

I'll grant that I'm not a psychologist.

However, as both you and I live in a democracy, I would consider both of us to be a form of lawmaker. Political issues can hardly be decided by the specialists of a particular field.

Must you be a climatologist to have an opinion on global warming? A doctor to have a view on abortion? A general to have an opinion about a war? Of course not, and in the end, it's people who are almost entirely not specialists of a particular field who must elect the politicians making decisions relating to that field.

In that context, you simply have to do as best you can with the information and experience you have available to you.

I am sure you would grant that there are mental illnesses which are very well researched and documented, such as schizophrenia. I mean, mental illness does exist, and we can't deny out of hand that various strange behaviours might be due to mental illness rather than personal choice, even if we don't understand the mechanism by which the sickness operates.

Fair enough in regards to real mental illnesses.

However, if there's no proof of mental illness, you have no choice but to deny it. You can't simply say "he might secretly have some sort of mental illness that no one's ever found evidence of". We should keep our minds open to the possibility of new evidence coming to light, but you can't use diseases that no one knows exist to make legal judgements.

Whether paedophilia is a mental illness is another thing. Certainly, from watching documentary programmes about paedophiles, it is obvious that they simply don't see anything wrong with what they do. They think Society is weird, not them.

I really have to question your use of the word "they" here. Who are these pedophiles? People convicted of pedophilic crimes? Of course they're going to have a heavy bias towards not thinking their actions were wrong, they chose to do those actions. If you're talking about NAMBLA and such, I think it's pretty clear that they're a fringe group. I doubt most pedophiles publicly broadcast themselves as such, so it's not really possible to get a representative example. If there was a way of determining what every pedophile thought of their actions there might be a way of inductively deciding whether there is a fundamental difference in their ability to discern the feelings of others. Unfortunately, there really isn't.

Perhaps it's a kind of condition like autism, or psychopathy, in which the sufferer cannot understand the inner mental processes of other people.

In that case the burden of proof needs to be upon the defense, though. Unless there can be proof of causation, you could say the same about any crime.

(Also, it's probably a good point that anyone who is both incapable of understanding the mental processes of others and attracted to children will almost certainly end up sexually abusing them. Thus, there will be a skew in the criminal population.)

Fifty wrote:Wrt the post that compared paedophilia and rape - paedophilia is a sexual attraction, and could, by some arguments be due to a mental status/illness that cannot be helped. This could explain the desire, though it would not excuse the act. It could, however, be argued that it may mitigate the act.

"Some argue" does not meet Wikipedia's quality standards.

Seriously though, I fail to see how it would mitigate it. People desire things, often greatly. After all, anyone committing a crime obviously wanted something enough to risk breaking the law. Trying to find out if they "just kind of wanted it" or "really, really wanted it" seems like a waste of time.

In this case, it is suggested by some that it is a financial motivation that could have been fulfilled in many other ways, making the act seem particularly callous and impossible to mitigate. Rape is generally not considered to be a sexual act, but rather a power and/or violent one that manifests in a sexual way, and, whilst there may be other ways in which to mitigate (never excuse) responsibility for the act, sexual attraction is difficult in the extreme to use as mitigation for culpability in a rape case.

I'm actually going to play Devil's Advocate here: People need some things to survive; food, water, clothing, shelter, medical care, etc. However, these things usually cost money. If not, money can usually get you a better version of these things. Even a person with enough money to provide themselves with these things can rarely guarantee that they will have that supply of money no matter what situations arise in the future. Thus, for many people, any pursuit of money could be conducive to their own survival.

In contrast, sexual gratification is pretty much unnecessary for an individual's survival. It's certainly nothing like food and shelter. It prevents no physical damage. Abusing children to that end will do less to secure necessities than abusing them for financial gain might. In that case, how is doing it for sexual gratification morally superior?

JohnHwangDD wrote:

smiling Assassin wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:- visibly mark pedophiles as "fair game" for prisoner-on-prisoner abuse.

Fething great idea, let's encourage vigilanteism amongst those who are already incredibly unstable, violent, and have perpetrated crimes!

Now you wonder why some people deride and mock those who say that the USA is the greatest country on earth? And before you come out with some not-so-witty comeback, I was being rhetorical and over the top. You get what I mean.

sA

And before *you* come out with some not-so-witty comeback, I was being rhetorical and over the top.

You get what I mean?

Besides, at least in our case, we can still make a tenable claim to being the greatest country on earth. The sun has set on other's claims for quite some time, whereas our military spans the globe.

/facepalm

JohnHwangDD wrote:
As I said in the violent criminal thread, just tattoo their crime and leave them to a life sentence in the general prison population.

The prisoners will sort things out.

No need to even waste the cost of ink. According to a friend of mine that's a guard at the state prison here, the prisoners already know ahead of time when a child abuser is coming and they have a special welcome ready for when he arrives. Sometimes guards get "distracted" and accidents happen.

JohnHwangDD wrote:As I said in the violent criminal thread, just tattoo their crime and leave them to a life sentence in the general prison population.

The prisoners will sort things out.

I'm uneasy with giving the criminal a state sponsored reason to commit further harm on others, it feels like a reward and I dislike the moral high ground that it would create. Basically I don't want criminals deciding the fate of other criminals, it's one of the rights they lost IMO.

They need to be cured and punished. Killing them is more expensive than keeping them alive and imprisoned, for life (all of it). Prison will do fine.

@George: That sounds about right, for a world in which prison is unnecessary, because everybody behaves properly.

In my world, things are pretty messed up, and I don't have a problem with that. It's not like prison isn't it's own society with its own rules and so forth.

Your notion of people being "cured" just makes me laugh. It's very cute and quaint.

JohnHwangDD wrote:It's very cute and quaint.

Like your opinions about the status of the USA then ?

When the sun sets on the American empire, then we'll talk...

I think if the sun falls on us everybody's screwed.

JohnHwangDD wrote:When the sun sets on the American empire, then we'll talk...

See ya next week !

Please. You've been going downhill post 'nam.

It's really only your porn and music industries, plus a somewhat WTF/general bemusement attitude from the rest of the "civilised" world that has kept you going this long. And momentum.

On the plus side, your comedy's should get funnier.

reds8n wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:When the sun sets on the American empire, then we'll talk...

See ya next week !

Please. You've been going downhill post 'nam.

It's really only your porn and music industries, plus a somewhat WTF/general bemusement attitude from the rest of the "civilised" world that has kept you going this long. And momentum.

On the plus side, your comedy's should get funnier.

Nah the Jews got that Cornered

(I'm Jewish, I can make that Joke )