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Emperors Faithful wrote:Sounds about right Canoness Rory, but probably a slightly higher initiative.

Marines can rip apart tanks with bare hands to.

I would say Spartan to be about AS strong as a Space Marine, but not as tough.

Well, that's what their armor gives them. Also, bear in mind that while 40k statlines can't show it, that Space marines would be weaker and less tough (but not as weak and tough as s3t3). It's their armor that also helps them.

Unless you factor in that Scouts are S/T4

I'd like to point out one interesting thing: the power levels portrayed by both games (40k and halo) are inaccurate:

-Master Chief is the best of the best, like a Chapter Master. He kills thousands of enemies throughout the trio of games, and dozens and dozens of vehicles as well.

-Space Marines are, by all accounts of the fluff, fairly heavily underpowered in the game vs. their fluff. How many of us have watched an army of 40-50 marines get destroyed by less than 200 orks? Some chapters (1000 marines) have held systems against millions of orks.

the defining rules aside, the fluff seems to indicate pretty strongly that space marines would come out on top. The REAL issue arises; could the spartan warriors be the predecessors to everyone's favorite screaming bald men?

Here i know the hierarchy.

SM>Spartan

Spartan>Space Marine scout/initiate

If spartan had it stat line it would be

WS4 BS4 S3 T3(4) W1 I4 A1 LD9 SV 4+/(6+)

6+ inv to represent the shield. They are treated as Toughness 4 but use the value of 3 to check for instant death (as they do not have 2 hearts, and other severe genetic based physical augmentation)

BrotherStynier wrote:Unless you factor in that Scouts are S/T4

I'm saying that Space marines without armor would not be as tough or as strong as space marines with armor if the rules were more detailed or you were playing something such as Inquisitor. They are still closer to S/T4 than 3. But that is a large jump.

So it's sphatuns vs spase marienz

I'm sure the Space Marines would win. Spartans have AIs and as they're seen as an abomination, if the Space Marines knew about it they would use their plot rage to basically puch the planet in half. Either that of the Ad Mech hears about it and a few Titans begin stomping around the place, I'm pretty sure the Inquisition would join in as well.

Now to just wait for a Tau vs Covenant thread >_>

Basically what I'm seeing here is a lot of blustering and no real numbers to back it up for either side. So I'm going to try and add some meat to this debate.

First of we must establish what can and can't be used as evidence for each side. For the Halo Spartans Bungie has said that the games on the highest difficulty setting are the sources we should use when dealing with the universe. The books would then come below that and can be used to fill in details, but would be superseded by the game where the two disagree. For the Space Marines the opposite is true, we have been told time and time again that tabletop marines have been toned down for the table top and that we should look at the books for our information. Thus in this case we would follow the fluff and ignore game play.

Now that being said we can find some data on the weapons used by both side now.

Standard Weapons:

Halo Spartans:

Assault Rifle: I'm going to use the information for an AK-47 here as it fits the heavy round type and accuracy of the aforementioned weapon rather well; that is unless anybody can gather better data. Thus the bullet fired will travel at 715 meters per second and deliver 2,054 joules of energy to the target, it has has a thirty-two round clip and can fire at a rate of approximately 660 rounds per minute.

Space Marines:

Bolter: This weapons is unique and unlike with the AK-47 we have little to go by for real life comparisons so we must turn to the books and see what feats they have done to determine what data to use for them. What we do know is that they commonly blow head sized holes in unarmored people and have depleted uranium tips to aid in penetration, they are fired in 4 round bursts, and based on the cross section sections seen in 'Imperial Armour Volume 2: Space Marines and Forces of the Inquisition 2nd edition' can hold between 10 and 25 grams of explosive. Using a high explosive such as ONC, the best we can currently produce, that would give us a value of between 113,000 - 283,000 joules per round and 452,00 and 1,132,000 joules for a full burst.

I would say we have a clear winner here, the bolter is 50 to 100 times stronger than the assault rifle and that is only a Space Marine's basic weapon. A heavy bolter is likely to have double to space to work with and thus able to fit in 8x the mass of explosive per shell making it about as nasty as some RPG-7 rounds.

I will do armor when I am not dead tired, however I feel that this simple weapons comparison will be enough to show that in a straight-up fight a Space marine would win.

Norade wrote: I will do armor when I am not dead tired, however I feel that this simple weapons comparison will be enough to show that in a straight-up fight a Space marine would win.

This is why I say Tactically the Space Marines win, stragetically the Spartans do.. Spartans "think outside the box" so to speak, tactially, where as the marines just drop in and start shooting according to the Tactica, Also, remember, that Spartans are trained to do something that Space Marines never do.. When confronted with an enemy with superior weaponry -KILL ONE AND TAKE HIS GUN-

Whilst I'm a great fan of Halo, I have no problem with acknowledging that the Space Marines (and a great many other things from 40k) outclass the 26th-century supersoldiers. The technology is much higher.

In a five against five fight, the winner would probably be whichever side the writer favoured. Plot armour will be the deciding factor in this (pointless) comparison.

Norade wrote:

Assault Rifle: I'm going to use the information for an AK-47 here as it fits the heavy round type and accuracy of the aforementioned weapon rather well; that is unless anybody can gather better data. Thus the bullet fired will travel at 715 meters per second and deliver 2,054 joules of energy to the target, it has has a thirty-two round clip and can fire at a rate of approximately 660 rounds per minute.

THE ASSAULT RIFLE DOES NOT HAVE A 32 ROUND CLIP.
THERE IS NO WEAPON IN EXISTENCE, REAL OR IMAGINARY, THAT HAS A 32 ROUND CLIP.

IF YOU MEAN MAGAZINE, HOWEVER, THAT'S A DIFFERENT STORY.

RustyKnight wrote:

Canonness Rory wrote:Just for the sake of doing so, I am going to stat Spartans in 40k.
WS:4 BS:4 S:3(4) T:3 W:1 I:3 A:1 Ld:9 Sv4+
Squad: 6-10 Spartans

Not even close. WS and BS are too low. Spartans are in fluff and in game capapble of putting a bullet exactly where they want it. They are very, very strong. Like pulling apart tanks with bare hands. Like single blow KO's strong. Spartan 113 (and he wasn't the strongest) as a teen took ouy four marines in hand to hand combat. Toughness wise, spartans are extremely tough. They have metal in their bones. They get shot and keep on going all the time. Wounds wise, spartans aren't going to stop after one wound. Initiative wise, Spartans are stupid fast. I'd prolly say they're faster than SM. Like bullet dodging fast. Like hmmm-is-he-going-to-punch-me-?-oh-I-guess-he-is-I'd-better-break-his-leg-before-he-does fast. Attack wise, nope. Save wise, I'd prolly give them a 3+/4+. The armor isn't unstoppable, but it still deflects a ton.

1.) A space marines spends decades training with their weapons, and have decades of experience to back it up. They are BS4. A captain, who has hundreds of years of training and experience, has BS5.
2.) A space marine is an 8 foot tall behemoth in tank armor that can lift tons upon tons of weight, and crush human skulls in their bare hands. They are S4. Heavy Bolters, which are massive 1.0 caliber rounds fired from a gun the size of a large human being, are S5. A Single Space Marine can take on dozens if not hundreds of imperial guardsmen at the same time, in the fluff.
3.) Space Marines not only have metal in their bones, but have much, much thicker bones than humans, as well as 2 hearts, 3 lungs, immunity to poison, and several other incredibly unrealistic over-the-top things that make them so ridiculously tough that it makes one wonder why they even use armor in the first place. They are T4. By Comparison, a Gigantic Daemon Prince, who is twice to three times as large as a space marine, and who's flesh is made from stronger materials than the space marine's armor, is T5.
4.) 2 wound models are a rarity in 40k. An unsaved wound essentially means you got shot somewhere vital, like you got your arm blown off, of you got shot in the head/heard/lungs. Space Marines have 2 hearts, 3 lungs, and Bones as strong as tank armor. They are 1 wound. By comparison, an Ork Nob is 2 wounds. Orks are famous for being so tough that their bodies can pretty much survive anything up to and including the removal of the entire ork.
5.) So, they are faster that superhuman monstrosities who dedicate their entire lives to the art of war? Ok, I'll give you that, what is the next step up then? Eldar, and Slaaneshi CSM. Both of which use MAGIC to be faster and more alert than space marines. Sorry, you're wrong again, unless the spartans have some form of magic i'm not aware of.
6.) Attack wise, yep! You made no argument, so I have nothing to refute.
7.) 3+ is the armor of space marines, who's armor is twice as thick as spartan armor, and made of a futuristic combination of plot and adamantium. Terminator armor only have a 5+ invuln save. Terminators can get stepped on by titans and come out unscathed. Sorry, 4+/6++ is very generous.

Stop being such a fanboy and learn something about the opposition first.

Lanceradvanced wrote:

Norade wrote: I will do armor when I am not dead tired, however I feel that this simple weapons comparison will be enough to show that in a straight-up fight a Space marine would win.

This is why I say Tactically the Space Marines win, strategically the Spartans do.. Spartans "think outside the box" so to speak, tactially, where as the marines just drop in and start shooting according to the Tactica, Also, remember, that Spartans are trained to do something that Space Marines never do.. When confronted with an enemy with superior weaponry -KILL ONE AND TAKE HIS GUN-

Yes, how do you expect a Spartan to kill a Space Marine with his weapons? With their helmets down there wouldn't be a place where the Spartan's gun would have a hope in hell of penetrating, even Lasguns have more energy behind them than a modern gun and Space Marines laugh those off easily. Given the Auspix (sp?) even if the Space Marine was sleeping, which we know they hardly need to do, the Spartan would have a near impossible time taking a weapon from a Space Marine.

As far as 'thinking outside the box' goes, could you please give an example where you believe a Spartan's more flexible thinking would allow them to succeed where an eight foot tall superhuman who can shrug off RPG's would fail?

Imperial Guard:

Lasgun: Based on the ability to vaporize a human brain a Lasgun has an energy output of 3,000,000 to 5,000,000 joules per shot. This may make them seem more powerful than bolters, but it seems that armor in 40k is more resistant to this type of energy than it is to kinetic and explosive energy.

Canonness Rory wrote:

Norade wrote:

Assault Rifle: I'm going to use the information for an AK-47 here as it fits the heavy round type and accuracy of the aforementioned weapon rather well; that is unless anybody can gather better data. Thus the bullet fired will travel at 715 meters per second and deliver 2,054 joules of energy to the target, it has has a thirty-two round clip and can fire at a rate of approximately 660 rounds per minute.

THE ASSAULT RIFLE DOES NOT HAVE A 32 ROUND CLIP.
THERE IS NO WEAPON IN EXISTENCE, REAL OR IMAGINARY, THAT HAS A 32 ROUND CLIP.

IF YOU MEAN MAGAZINE, HOWEVER, THAT'S A DIFFERENT STORY.

The sad thing is I actually know the difference between a clip and a magazine, but I was tired so I used the far overused term clip in place of magazine.

Clip: A clip is a frame fold holding bullets and is usually inserted into a specially designed fixed magazine, example M1 Garand), or a stripper clip designed to aid in the loading of a fixed magazine weapon such as a Lee-Enfield rifle, or to load a cylinder of a revolver in the case of a crescent or half crescent clip.

Magazine: A metal box that is designed to store and feed ammunition into a weapon's chamber.

I dont understand this comparison, especially the idea of taking a 5 on 5 contest. honestly what weapons could a spartan use to hurt a space marine? The most powerful of his weapons would be the rocket launcher, which in hammer times more symbolizes the frag grenade launcher that IG uses. I mean, its simple physics and chemistry, something can only overcome something else for one, chemistry, if it is a specific combo of harder and denser, and two, the speed in which it is traveling. Most bullets in halo times become molten in mid air, and would deflect rapidly on something as strong as plasteel.

And strength wise, there is NO comparison, space marines can lift 900 pound ORKS off their feet, they wield 7 FOOT SWORDS, saying a power weapon in hammer, vs a power sword in Halo is like saying SM: I can swing something 6 feet longer, faster than you...

Tactics wise I dont see how you think spartans are more adept, yes marines follow tactica, they have also been around many hundreds of years longer than a spartan. And as for augments, spartans are not humans in suits, that is incorrect, they have both genetic and cybernetic implants, but marines, jesus, a marine could have no armor on and still be nearly impossible for a spartan to kill, unless he has many sniper and rocket shots, about the only real advantage a spartan would have is speed and agility, being lighter, more flexible, and smaller, that means he can do the five rules of dodgeball far better than a marine can, and unfortunately for the marines, if it became a prolonged fire fight, they cant pick up enemy weapons and use them as their hands are simply to big. But, a spartan would barely even be able to lift a bolter let alone carry it around, it would be like carrying a chopped down scorpion cannon, I mean look at an IGsman hold one, they are about a spartans size and its bigger than they are...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and space marines, yeah they are about 10 feet tall, weigh somewhere around a couple tons with armor, and their armor is more like 4 times as thick as a spartans, somewhere like 9 to 11 inches of armor....

Would that Plasma Sword even reach through a space marine'z armour? For gak'z sake, the marinez win.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and snake would beat both squads at once, while simultaneously smoking, talking on his codec AND eating live animals.

Nintendoeats wins the thread.

Lanceradvanced wrote:When confronted with an enemy with superior weaponry -KILL ONE AND TAKE HIS GUN-

The problem with that is a Spartan could never kill one marine to take the gun of.

Norade wrote:As far as 'thinking outside the box' goes, could you please give an example where you believe a Spartan's more flexible thinking would allow them to succeed where an eight foot tall superhuman who can shrug off RPG's would fail?

Any place he could set up a halfway decent ambush, especially of the "Drop a huge f***ing rock on him" type that Marbo pulled off, or for that matter, just -avoid the fight- to acomplish his mission.

And lets not forget, Space Marines arn't the only folks to tote bolters around in the 40k verse.. mug a commisar, or guard captian, work your way up the firepower chain, From what I recall of the 40kfic, the -only- marine who's ever seriously considered using a xenos weapon was Lucius..

Lanceradvanced wrote:

Norade wrote:As far as 'thinking outside the box' goes, could you please give an example where you believe a Spartan's more flexible thinking would allow them to succeed where an eight foot tall superhuman who can shrug off RPG's would fail?

Any place he could set up a halfway decent ambush, especially of the "Drop a huge f***ing rock on him" type that Marbo pulled off, or for that matter, just -avoid the fight- to acomplish his mission.

And lets not forget, Space Marines arn't the only folks to tote bolters around in the 40k verse.. mug a commisar, or guard captian, work your way up the firepower chain, From what I recall of the 40kfic, the -only- marine who's ever seriously considered using a xenos weapon was Lucius..

This is not a Spartan versus Imperial Guard and Commisar fight, this is a Spartan versus Space Marine fight. As well Space Marines can be sneaky as well, ie Scout Marines, in the Blood Angels book they also sneak into a Chaos controlled spaceport. So I wouldn't give stealth to either side, especially as we don't know how well and Auspix would pick up the energy signature of a Spartan shield.

This is not a Spartan versus Imperial Guard and Commisar fight, this is a Spartan versus Space Marine fight.

Which happens where and when? Setting and set up is a huge factor one way or another, drop the spartan on any Imperial world, and they can aquire better weaponry (this isn't just some hypothetical argument, this is the explicit game advantage that nearly any FPS operates on) in a straight shootout without terrain, as I said, I'd give it to the Marines, as the situation gets more complex, I'd edge toward the Spartans.

As well Space Marines can be sneaky as well, ie Scout Marines, in the Blood Angels book they also sneak into a Chaos controlled spaceport. So I wouldn't give stealth to either side, especially as we don't know how well and Auspix would pick up the energy signature of a Spartan shield.

Bringing a scout however, works against the "the spartan can't hurt a marine in fully closed armor" argument.

Having read the fiction from both sides, I'd say the Space Marines, are very much in a "If all you have is a hammer, all the problems look like nails" school of thought, Spartans are Multitools, you mebbe can't hit as hard with em, but you can do more..

Lanceradvanced wrote:

This is not a Spartan versus Imperial Guard and Commisar fight, this is a Spartan versus Space Marine fight.

Which happens where and when? Setting and set up is a huge factor one way or another, drop the spartan on any Imperial world, and they can aquire better weaponry (this isn't just some hypothetical argument, this is the explicit game advantage that nearly any FPS operates on) in a straight shootout without terrain, as I said, I'd give it to the Marines, as the situation gets more complex, I'd edge toward the Spartans.

As well Space Marines can be sneaky as well, ie Scout Marines, in the Blood Angels book they also sneak into a Chaos controlled spaceport. So I wouldn't give stealth to either side, especially as we don't know how well and Auspix would pick up the energy signature of a Spartan shield.

Bringing a scout however, works against the "the spartan can't hurt a marine in fully closed armor" argument.

Having read the fiction from both sides, I'd say the Space Marines, are very much in a "If all you have is a hammer, all the problems look like nails" school of thought, Spartans are Multitools, you mebbe can't hit as hard with em, but you can do more..

Dropping Spartans into 40k would be the worst thing you could do to them because of the warp, the God Emperor won't protect them, their equipment isn't coated in purity seals and their easy fodder for a Librarian. You're also ignoring what happens if we're instead dropping a Chapter of Space Marines into the Halo universe where there are no better weapons for the Spartans to get, and the fact that you're not taking into account that Spartans will die even against Imperial guards lasguns.

Also even in a more complex scenario with cover the Space Marines will win, when your armor can't be scratched by their weapons and you can blow through the tree/rock/house/warthog they're hiding behind you're going top win every time. If we apply this to a search and destroy mission in a city where each side needs to find the other's forces and kill them while also defending their own base then you start to see that the Spartans have no chance. You also assume that juts because they use a tactica and are indoctrinated that Space Marines can only wade in while laying down fire, and you refer to vague scenarios where Spartans can win, and yet can't name an example.

As far as scouts go, I doubt they would be in any real danger from shooting still. They still have the next best thing to Space Marine armor and unlike a Spartan, this armor can still take a lasgun shot and not be melted slag. Not to mention the fact that a scout sniper would one hit a Spartan with any shot while the Spartan sniper would need to choose his shots to hurt even a Scout Marine. As well the Marines sneaking into a Space port weren't scouts, they were fully Armored Marines who took the stealthy route, so you can't say that regular Marines can't be sneaky.

Oh, I also knew I was forgetting something, the Space Marines have easily a ten to one numbers advantage, per chapter, over the Spartans as well and their ships would one hit UNSC ships. We're also not being nasty and giving the good 'ol SM their special weapons such as flamers and meltas and missile launchers which make this even more one-sided in any situation; nor are we giving them vehicles, terminator armor, artificer armor, rozarius, or anything else. In a real war or even a scenario with all the Spartans with vehicles and best kit versus only an equal number of SM with vehicles and just bolters I know who I'm voting for.

Lanceradvanced wrote:

Norade wrote:As far as 'thinking outside the box' goes, could you please give an example where you believe a Spartan's more flexible thinking would allow them to succeed where an eight foot tall superhuman who can shrug off RPG's would fail?

Any place he could set up a halfway decent ambush, especially of the "Drop a huge f***ing rock on him" type that Marbo pulled off, or for that matter, just -avoid the fight- to acomplish his mission.

And lets not forget, Space Marines arn't the only folks to tote bolters around in the 40k verse.. mug a commisar, or guard captian, work your way up the firepower chain, From what I recall of the 40kfic, the -only- marine who's ever seriously considered using a xenos weapon was Lucius..

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Daily_rituals_of_a_Space_Marine

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Power_Armour

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Creation_of_a_Space_Marine

After reading that, just imagine how a Spartan could take on a Space Marine. Don't forget about the fact that Space Marines can take a hit without an energy shield and that they are of Feral world (not Earth) and they select the Elite of these Feral words and only the Elite of these Elite are taken in as a Scout and only the Elite of these scouts are selected to be a battlebrother. Don't forget the fact that a Space Marine can stalk (ever heard of Konrad Kurze?) and they can set traps and kill just about anything. The only "stupid" Space Marines are Blood Angels gripped by the Black Rage, and even then they will just kill you whatever you try.

Don't forget, if you think that Spartan 117 has been taught a lot, EVERY Space Marine has been pumped 12M full of tactics and military history of the elite of mankind into his brain. Don't forget that a Space Marine can operate without food or water or sleep for weeks on end and never sleeps. They shut down a part of their brain at a time and are always awake.

Halo sucks.

Thanks for the +1 spam Deadshane1, I really needed to see those two words of yours to make me feel complete. I know it may not be required, but try to add something when you post.

Sorry...

Halo sucks. Fallout is a better FPS.

(I'm here to please! )

EDIT: btw, your use of spam is innappropriate here. I only posted the once before you labeled it spam, hope that helps.

Deadshane1 wrote:Sorry...

Halo sucks. Fallout is a better FPS.

As a FPS, Fallout is horrible. As far as shooting is concerned, Halo takes Fallout, beats with a rusty crowbar, and drowns it in a pool of tears created by a bunch of SW players in denial over the Wolf of Fenris.

On the boards I'm from, a post with only two words in it equals spam.

you're on dakka now.

Deadshane1 wrote:you're on dakka now.

This about sums it up.

Also, yeah halo isn't that great of a shooter. You jump around and take ridiculous amounts of fire and never die.

Norade wrote: In a real war or even a scenario with all the Spartans with vehicles and best kit versus only an equal number of SM with vehicles and just bolters I know who I'm voting for.

Again, Hammer vs Multitool... You need to stop thinking about the Spartans is if they're troop selections like guard platoons or stormtroopers , and thinking about more like Assassins, or Death Cultists, if you're thowing them into a war, or head to head fight, you're using them wrong.

Lanceradvanced wrote:

Norade wrote: In a real war or even a scenario with all the Spartans with vehicles and best kit versus only an equal number of SM with vehicles and just bolters I know who I'm voting for.

Which would be the exact kind of scenario that the spartans wouldn't be used for....

Again, Hammer vs Multitool.. and that the last I'm gonna say on it..

Just repeating Hammer versus Multitool does not an argument make. You have yet to provide a situation where Spartans are more capable than Marines in spite of my asking for it several times, so I am forced to conclude that you don't have one and are trying to stall.

Norade wrote:

Lanceradvanced wrote:

Norade wrote: In a real war or even a scenario with all the Spartans with vehicles and best kit versus only an equal number of SM with vehicles and just bolters I know who I'm voting for.

Which would be the exact kind of scenario that the spartans wouldn't be used for....

Again, Hammer vs Multitool.. and that the last I'm gonna say on it..

Just repeating Hammer versus Multitool does not an argument make. You have yet to provide a situation where Spartans are more capable than Marines in spite of my asking for it several times, so I am forced to conclude that you don't have one and are trying to stall.

Can Space Marines take off their armor and go undercover? Can Space Marines carry around ship-grade AI's in their heads? Can a Space Marine deflect an anti-tank missle with his arm and live? These examples don't mean that Spartans beat SM, but they are examples of situations where a Spartan would outperform an SM.